Does anyone else feel that...

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

JO is stinting Granger's growth?


It might just be me, but I am growing extremely pissed with the situation right now. Granger has been shooting less than 10 shots a game in the last 7 or so. This is getting crazy in my opinion. Granger should be shooting a minimum 15 shots a game I think. He will never get hot nor gain confidence shooting as little as he has been. Has anyone else noticed since Granger stopped trying offensively we have been losing?

I love JO, I really do, he is a great player. However, at this point I am, for the first time(other than JO for Bynum this offseason) ready to trade JO. I think it needs to be done, our offense is just like it was before with him in it. I want to see Granger take control of this team, even if it results in a crappy year. I don't want them to give up obviously, but whats the point of drafting players for the future(Granger, Diogu, Williams) if you don't give them a chance to grow?

Is this just me?

[granger05]

I agree with you that I'd like to see the young core more involved. I'm not sure that this can be hung on JO though. I live out in Colorado and so the only Pacer game I'll see this year was when they played the Nuggets. JO was out in that game and the Pacers won, but Danny disappeared for big stretches. I love Granger and I've even had my wife join me in always referring to him as "future hall of famer Danny Granger" since we drafted him. However, I'm not sure he'll ever be the main option type of guy. I don't think he has that mentality. He is perfectly capable of scoring whenever he needs to, but for the most part he stays too passive. That's been my impression in every game I've seen. He makes some WOW plays, but they're just too few and far between. Now I'm forced to refer to him as "future all-star? Danny Granger."

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

He was scoring 18 ppg before JO came back. He can score when he wants and your right, he is too passive. Thats my point, he needs to know he is the #1 scoring option, I think he would produce. For the most part, though not always, when Granger disappears in a game its because he doesn't attempt to score as much, not because he is incapable of scoring.

[granger05]

Well that's exactly it is that he disappears because he's not trying to score. Maybe you're right that a defined role of the go-to guy would change that. He was the main option in college so he's filled that role before. I think he's got all the tools he needs, but I think in order to be "the man" you have to really want that role. Granger doesn't seem to want that role. You could make arguments to whether that's a good thing of a bad thing in the scheme of things. I think he'll always help the team win, but I think he's got more of a Garnett mentality than a Kobe mentality. Also, you should go vote for Chris Bosh to make the all-star team.

[ajizzle]

I love that Bosh bit on youtube... it's hilarious!

Back to the point... I think Danny is doing a lot of what JO did when he first got here. JO deferred to Reggie until Reggie went to JO and said,
"Hey young fella! This has got to be your team now. Do what you do and I'll get in where I fit in."

The only problem is that JO probably doesn't want to do that, and for good reason. He's in the "prime" of his career, not really the "twilight" like Reggie. Plus, a lot of fans have asked JO to show more leadership, but he probably thinks that part of that is being the No. 1 option on O.

I know it won't happen, but I'd love to see JO be like Camby in Denver: Rebound, block shots, own the defensive paint, and get points from the line and off of putbacks and/or PNRoll/Pop plays. This would allow our bevy of shooters and slashers the freedom to, well, shoot and slash. Balance on O is our best friend, seeing as we have a lot of good players and no truly great ones.

JO is too busy trying to relive his MVP-caliber season (which also happened to be the team's best season in the JO Era) and not doing what leaders really do: What's best for the team.

Everybody, including JO, knows that we're at our best when we run on O, and go w/ our motion/Princeton/Obie offense, meaning that most of the shots should be taken by our perimeter players. This also means that our ISO Post plays should basically be used maybe 10% -- compared to the 50% we're using now -- unless there are clear mismatches on switches or things of that nature.

I'll admit that JO has a jumper, but like most bigs, it is most effective and consistent when he has to only catch-and-shoot. Boozer, Amare, Gasol last game... all of their Js are much more accurate when they do a pickNpop, then pull; not a pickNpop, hold the ball, fake a couple of times, dribble dribble, and then shoot when the shot clock is at 4.

Most successful teams run only 3 or 4 plays really: Pick-N-Roll/Pop, Drive-and-Shoot/Kick, Screen for a shooter, or Iso Post. We run PNR/P maybe 20%, DNS/K around 30%, and Iso Post about 50%, if not more. Those percentages need an adjustment.

I'd like to trade JO, just b/c it would FORCE us to use our perimeter players more, but I think that JO can do what is necessary. That's what leaders do.

[old school pacer fan]

granger05 hit it on the head, future all-star ?, I dout it.

Has anyone ever noticed what games Granger disappears in ?, it is against good talent, I mean TRUE 3,s .
G Wallace killed him after J Richardson forced him to the bench in the first quarter. Most good 3's will do that, WHY, GRANGER IS NOT A 2-3 he is more suited to play the 4. Now I know there are a lot of Granger fans here, but I have said it from day one, Granger does NOT have the handles to play where he is playing, Granger does not have the b ball IQ to be put in the position he has been put in.

Watch him on the break run right in to people, watch him stand around on D or get taken to the hole. I AM SICK OF WATCHING HIM SHOOT 3 point JUMPERS HIT THEM OR NOT.

He rarely takes his man to the hole, WHY, because if you play up on him he can not dribble, he only dribbles when they play off of him, which is what they are doing because they know he will settle for a long jumper.

Please do not get me wrong, IMO, Granger would be a GREAT 4, he is strong enough to do it and all his weakness would be his strenghts.

To say JO is hendering his growth is a bit much.

JO is STILL our best player, and Basketball, that is winning Basketball is still played inside out , not outside in.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Granger is too small to play the 4, not to mention we have JO and Diogu there.

As I said, he needs more shots, ya'll saw what he did tonight. Not only did he tear Josh Smith, a great defender up, but he held Joe Johnson in tact. He can and has always been able to play the 3, his confidence just hasn't always showed it. He attacked tonight and played amazing.

I never said JO wasn't our best player, he is a great player, one of my all time favorites. I was one of the few who didn't really want to trade him this off season, but our team can't go through him anymore, we have great balance and I think the rest of our team, as well as JO, would be more productive if it didn't revolve around one player most of the time.

[PR07]

JO might be affecting Granger's production, but I don't think it's as a result of anything JO is necessarily doing on the court. Granger is one of those guys that will do whatever is asked of him to help his team. He's also going to do whatever it takes at this point so early in his career to not step up on anybody's toes. I think he's stopped being aggressive on offense as a result and is deferring to the likes of JO. What he's got to realize is that the Pacers need him to be a consistent scoring option if they are to be successful. If the Pacers are winning with Granger as a scoring option, I doubt JO would really care.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

JO might be affecting Granger's production, but I don't think it's as a result of anything JO is necessarily doing on the court. Granger is one of those guys that will do whatever is asked of him to help his team. He's also going to do whatever it takes at this point so early in his career to not step up on anybody's toes. I think he's stopped being aggressive on offense as a result and is deferring to the likes of JO. What he's got to realize is that the Pacers need him to be a consistent scoring option if they are to be successful. If the Pacers are winning with Granger as a scoring option, I doubt JO would really care.

Yea, I agree with what your saying, nice points.

[CableKC]

If the Pacers are winning with Granger as a scoring option, I doubt JO would really care.

Although it's a matter of opinion.....I don't agree with that.

[ajizzle]

I don't think that JO is INTENTIONALLY hindering Danny's growth, but it's kind of a vicious cycle. Obie feels obilgated to get JO going, and in doing so, sometimes forgets about all of the talent we have on the perimeter, including Danny.

The fact of the matter is that JO is our best player overall, but that's by a small margin and mostly b/c of his defense. His rebounding for a 4 is not on par w/ his PF brethren. He is very inefficient b/c he doesn't get to the line, and our offense is terrible when run through him. JO, like most PFs right now, is a finisher. If you get it to him in a position to finish, then he's good, sometimes great. But a creator from inside, he is not. He doesn't drive enough or draw enough attention to get everyone involved.

Fans and analysts are always talking about great players making everyone around them better. JO doesn't do that. He never has. And I don't see that changing anytime soon. He needs to take a Camby-esque role and focus on rebounding and defense.

Danny doesn't make everyone around him better either, but offensively, he's better than JO. Danny is like a younger version of Antawn Jamison -- won't pass much, has a sweet J, can get to the line, can put the ball in the basket -- but a better defender.

P.S. Inside-out doens't necessarily always mean POST. Driving and kicking it out are just as good, if not better, especially for this team, b/c only Tinsley passes out of the post on a consistent basis.

[old school pacer fan]

Granger is too small to play the 4, not to mention we have JO and Diogu there.

As I said, he needs more shots, ya'll saw what he did tonight. Not only did he tear Josh Smith, a great defender up, but he held Joe Johnson in tact. He can and has always been able to play the 3, his confidence just hasn't always showed it. He attacked tonight and played amazing.

I never said JO wasn't our best player, he is a great player, one of my all time favorites. I was one of the few who didn't really want to trade him this off season, but our team can't go through him anymore, we have great balance and I think the rest of our team, as well as JO, would be more productive if it didn't revolve around one player most of the time.

Danny is BIGGER than Diogu, Danny is a better rebounder and defender than Diogu.

Danny , IMO , showed me he could be realy good down low , I thought he could avg 9-10 rebounds a game and get you 14-17 points as a 4.
Now he does not rebound like he can and has turned into a jump shooter, as I said , he does not have the HANDLES or passing skills to be a GOOD 3, but, he could be a Great 4.

That would allow S Williams to play the 3 { his natural position }.. .......

S Williams will be a beast when we give him consistent minns , S Williams has the HANDLES and is more ATHLETIC than Granger, those 2 should play together, Granger in , S Williams out.


Josh Smith is a 4 so M Williams guarded Granger last night and M Williams is clueless on the D.

Inside out is not allways POST true, BUT , like you said you at least drive and kick it out, thus inside out, we are comming down just jacking up 3" s without looking in, which IMO is crappy BB.

OLD SAYING, live by the jumper ,die by the jumper...............

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Granger isn't bigger than Diogu. They are the same height, Granger is longer, but Diogu is a lot bigger. While Granger is a better rebounder, a lot of them are slashing rebounds, not him boxing out rebounds. I don't believe Granger can guard most PF's efficiently at his size. Aside from that, Granger has out rebounded smaller SF's, not taller PF's.

I had the Pacer game on last night but wasn't paying full attention, when I payed attention to who was guarding Granger I saw both Williams and Smith, I remember Granger beating Smith off the dribble a few times though(then Smith recovered and got the block, haha, but still). Granger attacked the basket last night and succeeded. Your right, he relies to much on the jumper, but he can drive too.

[old school pacer fan]

Granger isn't bigger than Diogu. They are the same height, Granger is longer, but Diogu is a lot bigger. While Granger is a better rebounder, a lot of them are slashing rebounds, not him boxing out rebounds. I don't believe Granger can guard most PF's efficiently at his size. Aside from that, Granger has out rebounded smaller SF's, not taller PF's.

I had the Pacer game on last night but wasn't paying full attention, when I payed attention to who was guarding Granger I saw both Williams and Smith, I remember Granger beating Smith off the dribble a few times though(then Smith recovered and got the block, haha, but still). Granger attacked the basket last night and succeeded. Your right, he relies to much on the jumper, but he can drive too.

Interesting read.........http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... ft=0&sort=

[JarrettJackSG]

danny's 30 pounds lighter,but '5 inch taller, ike's standing reach is around 9]1 feet, while grangers is around 8'7.

i'd say that diogu is bigger as a person

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

-= original quote snipped =-



Interesting read.........http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... ft=0&sort=

According to Pacers.com they are both 6-8.

[kevinbs]

Granger is too small to play the 4, not to mention we have JO and Diogu there.

As I said, he needs more shots, ya'll saw what he did tonight. Not only did he tear Josh Smith, a great defender up, but he held Joe Johnson in tact. He can and has always been able to play the 3, his confidence just hasn't always showed it. He attacked tonight and played amazing.

I never said JO wasn't our best player, he is a great player, one of my all time favorites. I was one of the few who didn't really want to trade him this off season, but our team can't go through him anymore, we have great balance and I think the rest of our team, as well as JO, would be more productive if it didn't revolve around one player most of the time.

I agree


Danny is BIGGER than Diogu, Danny is a better rebounder and defender than Diogu.

Danny , IMO , showed me he could be realy good down low , I thought he could avg 9-10 rebounds a game and get you 14-17 points as a 4.
Now he does not rebound like he can and has turned into a jump shooter, as I said , he does not have the HANDLES or passing skills to be a GOOD 3, but, he could be a Great 4.

That would allow S Williams to play the 3 { his natural position }.. .......

S Williams will be a beast when we give him consistent minns , S Williams has the HANDLES and is more ATHLETIC than Granger, those 2 should play together, Granger in , S Williams out.


Josh Smith is a 4 so M Williams guarded Granger last night and M Williams is clueless on the D.

Inside out is not allways POST true, BUT , like you said you at least drive and kick it out, thus inside out, we are comming down just jacking up 3" s without looking in, which IMO is crappy BB.

OLD SAYING, live by the jumper ,die by the jumper...............

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Making Granger a 4 would just make him a tweener at the position. He will never be as big as most 4's. If you think Granger can guard and out rebound a Bosh type player your crazy. The reason he is a great defender is that he guards 3's, players his height or smaller. Not players taller and bulkier than him. He would be nothing more than an Antoine Walker type player if he becomes a 4. That would be cutting his talent far too short in my opinion. Granger held Joe Johnson to 9 points the other night, why move him out of position? Granger couldn't guard a true PF, we would get torched every game by the other teams PF. We'd have no interior defense since I'm assuming by Granger playing the 4 you mean that O'Neal would be traded. Murphy and Granger at 5 and 4 would be a nightmare. If your main concern is getting Williams playing time I'd much rather move Granger to the 2 than have him try and play the 4.

Also, what would that mean for Diogu? Your saying we move Granger to the 4 so Williams can play his natural position. We would basically ruin Granger and Diogu's potential just so Williams can get some starter minutes. I love Williams, I'm not saying I don't want him to play more, but I don't want to screw Diogu and Granger over to do it, and I guess O'Neal too, but if he were traded I'm sure we'd have more young players to worry about. If he wasn't traded putting him at 5 would be screwing him over too, all for Williams.

None of it makes sense to me.

[PR07]

I think moving Granger to the 4 permanently would be a mistake, although I do believe he can play there if the matchup is right. Yes, height-wise Granger and Diogu are about equal...but Diogu outweighs Granger by around 30 pounds and while Granger has a long reach, Diogu's is longer. Granger is a long and lanky 6'8 while Diogu is a "big" 6"8. I don't think Granger has the bulk or height to play PF on a consistent basis, and I think the Pacers would be better served using his length and athleticism at the SF position where he can outmatch his opponents.

If Shawne Williams turns into a player, he turns into a player, but I'm not about to clear him a spot in the starting rotation just because he shows promise for the future. Let him earn his spot in the rotation when he's ready.
It doesn't hurt to have a great 6th man either.

Instead of blaming Jermaine, shouldn't this be about Granger's assertiveness? Isn't that what separates the stars from the rest? Their ability to assert themselves and take over the reigns of the team? Maybe it's just not in Granger to be the star of the team, I don't really know. This isn't like Ricky Davis and LeBron James in Cleveland as I'm sure JO would welcome scoring help if the team is winninng. This is a guy that had his best season (as well as the team in recent seasons) when he had two other players averaging 15+ points a game in Artest and Harrington. Jermaine's no dummy, I'm sure he realizes that more scoring help = more easy looks for him.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

I agree, I don't think JO is purposely doing it. I think Granger might be intimidated taking shots away from JO so he lets JO shoot. I don't know, I want to see Granger and JO form better chemistry, we could be good if they do that.