Darvin Ham... The weak link?

[Showtime:Part2]

They all do that.

Phil never won without a MJ or Kobe. Riley never won a chip without Magic or LeBron.

You really going to give Spo credit over Jimmy for the Heats success? That’s a take I guess.

We’ve watched D’Antoni go from cursed out here to nba coach of the year. We’ve watched Brown go from hated here to great in Sacramento and coach of the year. We watched Vogel win a title and then scapegoated for roster issues, now he’s the head coach in Phoenix. Now they hate Ham. The Lakers fanbase are absolutely morons about coaches, We give them way too much blame for what has gone on when it’s always been a front office problem. All of those dudes are good coaches with the right roster. So is Ty Lue and Monte Williams, and Ime Udoka and Nick Nurse, Eric Spoelstra and Greg Popovich and the list goes on and on. They will win with the right roster and won’t win with the wrong one.

All coaches watch tape and formulate schemes. And I didn’t say player development is their only job, I said it’s the one area they have the most impact in the future success of the team. Spo stands out in development of marginal players to make great nba role players. Ham has a great staff of player development guys which is why I’m bullish about his future here.

But I stand by my statement, history has shown a coach is only as good as his roster. And that the front office, and building the correct roster, is vastly more important to a teams success.

1) yes it’s definitely as much spo as it’s jimmy you’re nuts. That roster is devoid of talent.

2) so according to you there’s no such thing as a bad coach. Why don’t they just hire me for 1 mill a year, I’ll get the job done ya? Ur nuts man, ham doesn’t even know when to call a time out

I’m here to break it to you, the Heat fall a lot farther if Butler leaves next year than if Spo does. The Lakers far better if they added Jaren Jackson than they would if they added Phil Jackson. Stop putting coaches on the same level as great players. They aren’t remotely.

Sure you have to reach a certain level of competence. But at the nba level, a large number of the coaches are of the same skill level. Ham included. Again our fan base is nuts with its over criticism of the coaches.

That’s not the way this works. You obviously don’t replace prime lebron with Phil Jackson and expect team to be neutral. Terrible argument. You’re comparing coaches to other coaches and what impact they have. The top of the nba isn’t that different in talent. What separates team success is having coaches like doc rivers (if you bring up the 08 ring rmr that was the year he had thibs as assistant doing all his defensive schemes and bos was a goat defensive team that year) or mark Jackson or Darvin ham vs coaches like spo, Kerr (I mean legit same early playoff exit team diff coach year after mark Jackson leaves becomes dynasty???), brad Stevens, etc… hell if we had Vogel I think we make the finals. Someone who didn’t think it would be a good idea to go under every screen and play drop and leave Murray, mpj, and Kcp WIDE open bc they were scared of a joker layup. Someone who didn’t play dlo when the other teams coach and players came out after game 1 and said they were hunting dlo. Each game decided by 10 points or less basically. A better coach gets you over the hump. You are blind if you think we replace Phil w dantoni and win as many rings as we did. Sht is decided on the margins in the playoffs. Being lackadaisical about it, especially when there are no salary cap constraints for coaching, is really stupid

Ham might legit be a bottom 5 coach in the nba. He stubbornly played Malik beaseley starter minutes for a good majority of the season since the trade. He refused to play backup centers (I know bamba sucks but you gotta give guys run to gel w the team and see what you’ve got and if you can give beaseley 30 mins to brick 3s and play no d you can sure as sht give Mo 10 mins instead of dnps to see if he belongs on this team), and just look how badly we got outscored without AD in the game consistently. He was rolling Gabriel out at the 5 when it yielded the other team a bucket every possession. He benched hachimura after the guy played well in the reg season. In the playoffs, per nba stats, rui held joker to 40% fg shooting when matchup up w joker and yet we only played them for 6 mpg (total 25 minutes) against each other for the series. Do you rmr at the end of game 1, we all thought we had something when rui shut down jokic and ad came out roaming and we came back? Then game two inexplicably we went completely away from it and went back to AD on joker. If Austin Reaves doesn’t explode in the second half and bail out this team (and just addition by subtraction of Westbrook gone), you’d be calling for his head too but you don’t have the ability to see the minutiae of what coaching impacts (as you yourself said you clearly think it doesn’t make a difference). Having a Anthony Davis, lbj, and the leagues leading guard in efficienncy can mask a lot of problems with our decision making but come playoffs those problems show against the elite teams. Maybe your aspiration is just to lose to den in the ecf every year idk. Bottom line: schemes and rotations matter in the post season

[tamaraw08]

They all do that.

Phil never won without a MJ or Kobe. Riley never won a chip without Magic or LeBron.

You really going to give Spo credit over Jimmy for the Heats success? That’s a take I guess.

We’ve watched D’Antoni go from cursed out here to nba coach of the year. We’ve watched Brown go from hated here to great in Sacramento and coach of the year. We watched Vogel win a title and then scapegoated for roster issues, now he’s the head coach in Phoenix. Now they hate Ham. The Lakers fanbase are absolutely morons about coaches, We give them way too much blame for what has gone on when it’s always been a front office problem. All of those dudes are good coaches with the right roster. So is Ty Lue and Monte Williams, and Ime Udoka and Nick Nurse, Eric Spoelstra and Greg Popovich and the list goes on and on. They will win with the right roster and won’t win with the wrong one.

All coaches watch tape and formulate schemes. And I didn’t say player development is their only job, I said it’s the one area they have the most impact in the future success of the team. Spo stands out in development of marginal players to make great nba role players. Ham has a great staff of player development guys which is why I’m bullish about his future here.

But I stand by my statement, history has shown a coach is only as good as his roster. And that the front office, and building the correct roster, is vastly more important to a teams success.

Phil didn’t win s chip without MJ and Kobe but he can make the Bulls win 57 games when Jordan left and was replaced by journeyman Pete Myers.
Lakers fell apart after Phil left the first time and went to the playoffs immediately with Smush and Kwame as starters… let that sink in for moment and ponder if an average coach can duplicate that feat.
I disagree with your take that fans are REALLY OVERESTIMATING coaches’ impact on wins and losses.
You mentioned Ime Udoka, I still don’t know if this guy is legitimately a very good coach with Boston not necessarily struggling in the RS unlike when great coaches depart.
I also disagreed with your take when you said a coach PRIMARILY ROLE is player development. Again assistants and trainers are tasked to fulfill these roles.
If a coach create bad ineffective schemes and fails to adjust , this will IMPACT wins and loses imo. Players get frustrated and they can smell incompetence, and this result to a tactician getting fired.
Having said that, yes Vogel and Ham do not deserve being fully blamed for the setbacks of the Lakers.

Frank Vogel won 56 games with the Pacers.

What happened when the Lakers fell apart? It was Phil or was it FREAKING SHAQ being traded? My goodness you are burying the lede.

I don’t know why you’re bringing up Vogel again because I said he shouldn’t be fully blamed for their struggles.
You also obviously ignored my point about how Phil navigated the Bulls to 55 wins with the freaking Pete Myers replacing MJ, you know that guy being referred to as GOAT, right?
Now who is better, MJ or Shaq?
Lakers got Caron Butler, Lamar Odom and Brian Grant for Shaq. They also acquired the pretty good Chris Mihm to play center, unfortunately it was a rude awakening for Kobe to spot the difference between an average coach and Phil that Rudy T found himself quitting. Not saying though that Lakers would have won it all that year without Shaq but come on man.
Smush Parker and Kwame in your starting lineup and you get to the playoffs and gave Phoenix a run for their money with Luke Walton as arguably your 3rd best player?
So you really wanted to give more credit to Jimmy and not Spo? Butler never sniffed the finals with the good Bulls, with KAT, Wiggins and Thibs , and Embiid/Tobias, Simmons etc. so you think those guys are more inferior than Bam, Martin, Vincent?.
The irony is I’m not totally disagreeing with your point about fans overly criticizing coaches, but I’m also disputing your point about the degree of impact of coaches with wins and losses.
For me context is important, D’Lo and Schroder completely disappearing on offense was to blame and you couldn’t fault Ham with that. Also give credit to Denver.

[hoosierdaddy34]

1) yes it’s definitely as much spo as it’s jimmy you’re nuts. That roster is devoid of talent.

2) so according to you there’s no such thing as a bad coach. Why don’t they just hire me for 1 mill a year, I’ll get the job done ya? Ur nuts man, ham doesn’t even know when to call a time out

I’m here to break it to you, the Heat fall a lot farther if Butler leaves next year than if Spo does. The Lakers far better if they added Jaren Jackson than they would if they added Phil Jackson. Stop putting coaches on the same level as great players. They aren’t remotely.

Sure you have to reach a certain level of competence. But at the nba level, a large number of the coaches are of the same skill level. Ham included. Again our fan base is nuts with its over criticism of the coaches.

That’s not the way this works. You obviously don’t replace prime lebron with Phil Jackson and expect team to be neutral. Terrible argument. You’re comparing coaches to other coaches and what impact they have. The top of the nba isn’t that different in talent. What separates team success is having coaches like doc rivers (if you bring up the 08 ring rmr that was the year he had thibs as assistant doing all his defensive schemes and bos was a goat defensive team that year) or mark Jackson or Darvin ham vs coaches like spo, Kerr (I mean legit same early playoff exit team diff coach year after mark Jackson leaves becomes dynasty???), brad Stevens, etc… hell if we had Vogel I think we make the finals. Someone who didn’t think it would be a good idea to go under every screen and play drop and leave Murray, mpj, and Kcp WIDE open bc they were scared of a joker layup. Someone who didn’t play dlo when the other teams coach and players came out after game 1 and said they were hunting dlo. Each game decided by 10 points or less basically. A better coach gets you over the hump. You are blind if you think we replace Phil w dantoni and win as many rings as we did. Sht is decided on the margins in the playoffs. Being lackadaisical about it, especially when there are no salary cap constraints for coaching, is really stupid

Ham might legit be a bottom 5 coach in the nba. He stubbornly played Malik beaseley starter minutes for a good majority of the season since the trade. He refused to play backup centers (I know bamba sucks but you gotta give guys run to gel w the team and see what you’ve got and if you can give beaseley 30 mins to brick 3s and play no d you can sure as sht give Mo 10 mins instead of dnps to see if he belongs on this team), and just look how badly we got outscored without AD in the game consistently. He was rolling Gabriel out at the 5 when it yielded the other team a bucket every possession. He benched hachimura after the guy played well in the reg season. In the playoffs, per nba stats, rui held joker to 40% fg shooting when matchup up w joker and yet we only played them for 6 mpg (total 25 minutes) against each other for the series. Do you rmr at the end of game 1, we all thought we had something when rui shut down jokic and ad came out roaming and we came back? Then game two inexplicably we went completely away from it and went back to AD on joker. If Austin Reaves doesn’t explode in the second half and bail out this team (and just addition by subtraction of Westbrook gone), you’d be calling for his head too but you don’t have the ability to see the minutiae of what coaching impacts (as you yourself said you clearly think it doesn’t make a difference). Having a Anthony Davis, lbj, and the leagues leading guard in efficienncy can mask a lot of problems with our decision making but come playoffs those problems show against the elite teams. Maybe your aspiration is just to lose to den in the ecf every year idk. Bottom line: schemes and rotations matter in the post season

That’s exactly the way this works. Coaches aren’t going to do **** if they don’t have the right players around them. My entire argument is that the front office and players make a far greater impact on success than coaches do. And it’s without question. If you give Phil Jackson or Spo or Pop the Charlotte Hornets or the Houston Rockets they will still be terrible. If you give the Bulls or Earriors Darvin Ham, they still win the title. That’s how this works.

The Lakers failures the last couple years had far more to do with injuries and poor front office decisions than Ham or Vogel or anyone else.

The Nuggets this year were a better team, period. They had more guys that could hit shots than we did. Much of the way Ham played was similar to the way Spo played them the next round. Again at the end of the day most nba level coaches are going to come to similar conclusions on plans schemes given the personnel involved.

So no you are dead wrong about much of what you are talking about, half of which I didn’t read because it’s the same circle of nonsense that keeps getting spewed over and over. And it’s based on Ham did this or Ham didn’t do that. It’s the same recycled complaints Lakers fans had about Ham they said about Vogel, D’Antoni, Brown…but mysteriously those coaches go elsewhere and win coach of the year. It’s all nonsense.

Ham is a fine coach. He may not do it exactly as you would but I’m sure he thinks about these things at a much greater depth than you do while your jerking the slurpy machine at 7/11 or AM/PM for $12 an hour. As all NBA level coaches do,

[hoosierdaddy34]

Phil didn’t win s chip without MJ and Kobe but he can make the Bulls win 57 games when Jordan left and was replaced by journeyman Pete Myers.
Lakers fell apart after Phil left the first time and went to the playoffs immediately with Smush and Kwame as starters… let that sink in for moment and ponder if an average coach can duplicate that feat.
I disagree with your take that fans are REALLY OVERESTIMATING coaches’ impact on wins and losses.
You mentioned Ime Udoka, I still don’t know if this guy is legitimately a very good coach with Boston not necessarily struggling in the RS unlike when great coaches depart.
I also disagreed with your take when you said a coach PRIMARILY ROLE is player development. Again assistants and trainers are tasked to fulfill these roles.
If a coach create bad ineffective schemes and fails to adjust , this will IMPACT wins and loses imo. Players get frustrated and they can smell incompetence, and this result to a tactician getting fired.
Having said that, yes Vogel and Ham do not deserve being fully blamed for the setbacks of the Lakers.

Frank Vogel won 56 games with the Pacers.

What happened when the Lakers fell apart? It was Phil or was it FREAKING SHAQ being traded? My goodness you are burying the lede.

I don’t know why you’re bringing up Vogel again because I said he shouldn’t be fully blamed for their struggles.
You also obviously ignored my point about how Phil navigated the Bulls to 55 wins with the freaking Pete Myers replacing MJ, you know that guy being referred to as GOAT, right?
Now who is better, MJ or Shaq?
Lakers got Caron Butler, Lamar Odom and Brian Grant for Shaq. They also acquired the pretty good Chris Mihm to play center, unfortunately it was a rude awakening for Kobe to spot the difference between an average coach and Phil that Rudy T found himself quitting. Not saying though that Lakers would have won it all that year without Shaq but come on man.
Smush Parker and Kwame in your starting lineup and you get to the playoffs and gave Phoenix a run for their money with Luke Walton as arguably your 3rd best player?
So you really wanted to give more credit to Jimmy and not Spo? Butler never sniffed the finals with the good Bulls, with KAT, Wiggins and Thibs , and Embiid/Tobias, Simmons etc. so you think those guys are more inferior than Bam, Martin, Vincent?.
The irony is I’m not totally disagreeing with your point about fans overly criticizing coaches, but I’m also disputing your point about the degree of impact of coaches with wins and losses.
For me context is important, D’Lo and Schroder completely disappearing on offense was to blame and you couldn’t fault Ham with that. Also give credit to Denver.

This response was an absolute disaster of flawed logic.

Aside from the fact that the Sixers came within a ridiculously lucky bounce for Kawhi for Toronto to even win the series. You are completely ignoring the fact Jimmy left because he couldn’t take Ben Simmons and how the entire organization bent over backwards for him and how he knew he didn’t have what it took. Again this was organizational mismanagement. And same with KAT…he knew the guy was not serious about being a winning player. He didn’t leave because of thibs. He didn’t leave Philly to go play with Spo. He left because he couldn’t take the players he was playing with and he knew he had an organization in Miami that would be fully committed to that cause. Not coddling their spoiled young superstars.

I’m not even going to waste my time with the rest of this desperate attempt to twist reality into a narrative that fits your flawed logic.

And I brought up Vogel because that wasn’t a great Indiana team but he won the same amount of games as Phil did basically.

But seriously you are trying to sell a pretty good haul for Shaq, and a pretty good Chris Mihm. I’m done. Phil couldn’t get it done because without Shaq, they weren’t nearly good enough. Again organizational management, or mismanagement in that case destroyed the team. And Phil was helpless to change that after he was hired until Gadol came. Then they mysteriously were a contender for him again. Front office far more impactful than coaches are.

[tamaraw08]

Frank Vogel won 56 games with the Pacers.

What happened when the Lakers fell apart? It was Phil or was it FREAKING SHAQ being traded? My goodness you are burying the lede.

I don’t know why you’re bringing up Vogel again because I said he shouldn’t be fully blamed for their struggles.
You also obviously ignored my point about how Phil navigated the Bulls to 55 wins with the freaking Pete Myers replacing MJ, you know that guy being referred to as GOAT, right?
Now who is better, MJ or Shaq?
Lakers got Caron Butler, Lamar Odom and Brian Grant for Shaq. They also acquired the pretty good Chris Mihm to play center, unfortunately it was a rude awakening for Kobe to spot the difference between an average coach and Phil that Rudy T found himself quitting. Not saying though that Lakers would have won it all that year without Shaq but come on man.
Smush Parker and Kwame in your starting lineup and you get to the playoffs and gave Phoenix a run for their money with Luke Walton as arguably your 3rd best player?
So you really wanted to give more credit to Jimmy and not Spo? Butler never sniffed the finals with the good Bulls, with KAT, Wiggins and Thibs , and Embiid/Tobias, Simmons etc. so you think those guys are more inferior than Bam, Martin, Vincent?.
The irony is I’m not totally disagreeing with your point about fans overly criticizing coaches, but I’m also disputing your point about the degree of impact of coaches with wins and losses.
For me context is important, D’Lo and Schroder completely disappearing on offense was to blame and you couldn’t fault Ham with that. Also give credit to Denver.

This response was an absolute disaster of flawed logic.

Aside from the fact that the Sixers came within a ridiculously lucky bounce for Kawhi for Toronto to even win the series. You are completely ignoring the fact Jimmy left because he couldn’t take Ben Simmons and how the entire organization bent over backwards for him and how he knew he didn’t have what it took. Again this was organizational mismanagement. And same with KAT…he knew the guy was not serious about being a winning player. He didn’t leave because of thibs. He didn’t leave Philly to go play with Spo. He left because he couldn’t take the players he was playing with and he knew he had an organization in Miami that would be fully committed to that cause. Not coddling their spoiled young superstars.

I’m not even going to waste my time with the rest of this desperate attempt to twist reality into a narrative that fits your flawed logic.

And I brought up Vogel because that wasn’t a great Indiana team but he won the same amount of games as Phil did basically.

But seriously you are trying to sell a pretty good haul for Shaq, and a pretty good Chris Mihm. I’m done. Phil couldn’t get it done because without Shaq, they weren’t nearly good enough. Again organizational management, or mismanagement in that case destroyed the team. And Phil was helpless to change that after he was hired until Gadol came. Then they mysteriously were a contender for him again. Front office far more impactful than coaches are.

Jimmy hated his teammates in Minnesotta,
Jimmy also hated his teammates in Philly, do you see a pattern here? Oh wait, who did he hate in Chicago? why did he leave an Organization what won championships 6 rings?
You know you are not the first person who extremely valued "Organizational Management", and yes it IS IMPORTANT!! But I am not sure you are old enough to remember what happened to Jerry Krause.
He said this

CHICAGO BULLS
Bulls GM Jerry Krause: ‘Players and coaches don’t win championships, organizations do’
By Bernie Lincicome

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bulls/ct-jerry-krause-chicago-bulls-quote-20200419-hlcjhuhir5dt7kry5gspalxoba-story.html
He was the one who found and promoted Phil and also acquired key pieces to support MJ. To prove his point, he let everyone go including Phil, cleared his payroll and tried to rebuild the Bulls from the ground up. He was so confident that he could find the next Phil Jackson that he hired Tim Floyd out of Iowa State. Jerry really thought that once he got rid of the outrageous salary of MJ, Pippen and Phil that he can just offer the best contracts that he can assemble a great team... Now I will let you go from here what exactly happened to that "GREAT ORGANIZATION".
Phil won games with Pete Myers, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown, of course no coach can win it all with those scrubs esp "fine coaches like Vogel, Ham, MDA and Brown.
Shaq is a great player, but the guy couldn't lead Orlando to a ring even with a great supporting cast of Penny, Scott, Grant and Anderson.
Speaking of Vogel, like you said, he is a "fine" coach, you want to mention his accomplishments in Indiana and leave out his disastrous stint in Orlando?
Fine coaches can still win rings... with the great players and great assistants ESPECIALLY if they are facing teams with also fine coaches... The only time I decided to reply on this specific thread is when you said coaches' main responsibility is "player development" and that we overestimate their impact in wins and losses.
If the teams in the playoffs face each other with pretty much the same talent, which team do you think will advance, the one with the fine coach or the team with a great coach?
So btw, Let me ask you this, name me the teams that you think are actually GREAT Organizations who are great in building teams?

[Showtime:Part2]

I’m here to break it to you, the Heat fall a lot farther if Butler leaves next year than if Spo does. The Lakers far better if they added Jaren Jackson than they would if they added Phil Jackson. Stop putting coaches on the same level as great players. They aren’t remotely.

Sure you have to reach a certain level of competence. But at the nba level, a large number of the coaches are of the same skill level. Ham included. Again our fan base is nuts with its over criticism of the coaches.

That’s not the way this works. You obviously don’t replace prime lebron with Phil Jackson and expect team to be neutral. Terrible argument. You’re comparing coaches to other coaches and what impact they have. The top of the nba isn’t that different in talent. What separates team success is having coaches like doc rivers (if you bring up the 08 ring rmr that was the year he had thibs as assistant doing all his defensive schemes and bos was a goat defensive team that year) or mark Jackson or Darvin ham vs coaches like spo, Kerr (I mean legit same early playoff exit team diff coach year after mark Jackson leaves becomes dynasty???), brad Stevens, etc… hell if we had Vogel I think we make the finals. Someone who didn’t think it would be a good idea to go under every screen and play drop and leave Murray, mpj, and Kcp WIDE open bc they were scared of a joker layup. Someone who didn’t play dlo when the other teams coach and players came out after game 1 and said they were hunting dlo. Each game decided by 10 points or less basically. A better coach gets you over the hump. You are blind if you think we replace Phil w dantoni and win as many rings as we did. Sht is decided on the margins in the playoffs. Being lackadaisical about it, especially when there are no salary cap constraints for coaching, is really stupid

Ham might legit be a bottom 5 coach in the nba. He stubbornly played Malik beaseley starter minutes for a good majority of the season since the trade. He refused to play backup centers (I know bamba sucks but you gotta give guys run to gel w the team and see what you’ve got and if you can give beaseley 30 mins to brick 3s and play no d you can sure as sht give Mo 10 mins instead of dnps to see if he belongs on this team), and just look how badly we got outscored without AD in the game consistently. He was rolling Gabriel out at the 5 when it yielded the other team a bucket every possession. He benched hachimura after the guy played well in the reg season. In the playoffs, per nba stats, rui held joker to 40% fg shooting when matchup up w joker and yet we only played them for 6 mpg (total 25 minutes) against each other for the series. Do you rmr at the end of game 1, we all thought we had something when rui shut down jokic and ad came out roaming and we came back? Then game two inexplicably we went completely away from it and went back to AD on joker. If Austin Reaves doesn’t explode in the second half and bail out this team (and just addition by subtraction of Westbrook gone), you’d be calling for his head too but you don’t have the ability to see the minutiae of what coaching impacts (as you yourself said you clearly think it doesn’t make a difference). Having a Anthony Davis, lbj, and the leagues leading guard in efficienncy can mask a lot of problems with our decision making but come playoffs those problems show against the elite teams. Maybe your aspiration is just to lose to den in the ecf every year idk. Bottom line: schemes and rotations matter in the post season

That’s exactly the way this works. Coaches aren’t going to do **** if they don’t have the right players around them. My entire argument is that the front office and players make a far greater impact on success than coaches do. And it’s without question. If you give Phil Jackson or Spo or Pop the Charlotte Hornets or the Houston Rockets they will still be terrible. If you give the Bulls or Earriors Darvin Ham, they still win the title. That’s how this works.

The Lakers failures the last couple years had far more to do with injuries and poor front office decisions than Ham or Vogel or anyone else.

The Nuggets this year were a better team, period. They had more guys that could hit shots than we did. Much of the way Ham played was similar to the way Spo played them the next round. Again at the end of the day most nba level coaches are going to come to similar conclusions on plans schemes given the personnel involved.

So no you are dead wrong about much of what you are talking about, half of which I didn’t read because it’s the same circle of nonsense that keeps getting spewed over and over. And it’s based on Ham did this or Ham didn’t do that. It’s the same recycled complaints Lakers fans had about Ham they said about Vogel, D’Antoni, Brown…but mysteriously those coaches go elsewhere and win coach of the year. It’s all nonsense.

Ham is a fine coach. He may not do it exactly as you would but I’m sure he thinks about these things at a much greater depth than you do while your jerking the slurpy machine at 7/11 or AM/PM for $12 an hour. As all NBA level coaches do,

Why bother posting on an internet board about basketball if you’re gonna admit you won’t even read the other persons post? Why don’t you just go talk to a wall instead? Is it because you can’t answer basic questions like how can coaching not matter when you look at the delta of the warriors from mark Jackson to Steve Kerr (lmao Darvin ham is not winning sht w the warriors outside of MAYBE the kd years, poof there goes ur dynasty)? Is it because you can’t comprehend that championships are won on the margins? What is the weird personal attack about a slurpy machine at 7/11 (I don’t even understand the insult, are you trying to call me poor lol??). One thing I’m gleaning from your posts is that you consistently come in with some preconceived opinion and if anyone disagrees you go ****, regardless of what facts are presented to you. I personally think the wall is a better outlet for your rants than this forum, but do you. Easy to add to my ignore list. Maybe one day you will gain the logical capability to determine rob pelinka isn’t choosing between Giannis and Darvin ham. He’s choosing between nick nurse and Darvin ham, and that decision does have consequences vis a vis championships

[LakersLegacy]

Now that time has passed, I'm still struggling to figure out why we did so poorly against Denver... I feel like we were their toughest matchup, and yet they made beating us look relatively easy... Miami shouldn't have been anywhere near the challenge we were...

Lebron wasn't 100%... Sure...

But Murry killed us... Even after we pretty much neutralized Curry?

It felt like starting from about game 2 of the GSW series, we started fighting ourselves... Like our gameplan just wasn't working.

And against Denver, we didn't really adjust at all... Or rather we did stupid ****... Like LW getting more minutes than Vanderbilt... Why? Why didn't Vanderbilt even sniff the floor in GM4? We played really porous D that series... Shouldn't our best defender have been on the floor? LW has one huge game and all of a sudden we throw a series to get him more minutes?

So, am I the only one who thinks a better coach/system might have been a huge difference for us?

I mean Denver is an incredible team. They deserved to win it all. But maybe we could have made it a little more interesting if we played to our strengths rather than actually negating them?

Ham was horrible PERIOD

Frank won with
Green, Kuz, Dwight, AD, LeBron
Ham never even tried for a single second
Reeves (Green), Rui (Kuz), Vando (Dwight) AD, LeBron

Even though it’s the most similar line up to what Frank did to win against this same group last time.

That’s not logical. And Ham was an idiot. Game 1 I wanted that lineup. He literally did everything but that. And we were so close each game. Ham fell in love with Walker. And I get why off the court he’s such a great guy. But those 2 Walker turnovers at the end when we lose by 1, that lineup was the best chance when we lost by 4.

Ham was a rookie head coach. Ham needs a Tex Winter NOW. Ham has blind spots. Hams communication style works but his XsOs well he’s a cheerleader coach in some ways

[stan francisco]

I was pissed at Ham against Denver, too. Yelling at the TV mad. Adjustments in the playoffs are over rated, really? Tell that cool story to Phil Jackson.

After what Rob ‘em blind Pelinka just pulled, Ham is indeed our weak link.

[PedroFlu]

Yep, he puts a ceilling to this team, absolutely. He won't start giving relevant minutes to a real C, it's not a priority. He believes in small ball, loves his guards and forwards, and will overplay his veterans. I'm expecting a lot of minutes for Rui as a backup C.

He's stubborn af and needs to play safe, as he's just starting his career.

[stan francisco]

I think Ham’s problem is twofold; a lack of experience and an excess of confidence. He’s a first time coach who takes a know-it-all approach. Unwise, if you want to improve quickly.

Ham should consult with Phil Jackson, ask Yoda some real coaching questions. If he doesn’t bring rings this year, I’d guess he’s out. Vogel agrees.

Thinking ahead a year, he will regret not having called Phil for advice while here, as doing so could have made a deciding difference in winning rings or not.

Who is Ham’s mentor?

[LakersLegacy]

Now that time has passed, I'm still struggling to figure out why we did so poorly against Denver... I feel like we were their toughest matchup, and yet they made beating us look relatively easy... Miami shouldn't have been anywhere near the challenge we were...

Lebron wasn't 100%... Sure...

But Murry killed us... Even after we pretty much neutralized Curry?

It felt like starting from about game 2 of the GSW series, we started fighting ourselves... Like our gameplan just wasn't working.

And against Denver, we didn't really adjust at all... Or rather we did stupid ****... Like LW getting more minutes than Vanderbilt... Why? Why didn't Vanderbilt even sniff the floor in GM4? We played really porous D that series... Shouldn't our best defender have been on the floor? LW has one huge game and all of a sudden we throw a series to get him more minutes?

So, am I the only one who thinks a better coach/system might have been a huge difference for us?

I mean Denver is an incredible team. They deserved to win it all. But maybe we could have made it a little more interesting if we played to our strengths rather than actually negating them?

Ham is bad. At least he was. He didn’t fry our biggest 5 players agains their huge lineup.

I think we actually need to sign (for the play-offs) both old bigs Dwight and Cousins and have them train all year to shut down Joker. Just for a potential play-off match up.

Ham is completely lost and out of his league against the sweepers. It’s worth the 2 roster spots. Just have a back up plan. Have a redundancy. Ham just doesn’t understand containing a big in the slightest

[stan francisco]

He needs to grow his spine thick enough to dare hiring another assistant, one older and wiser than himself with Xs and Os. Ham needs to identify what he doesn’t know well, then ask for assistance. I say it’s Xs and Os. Early exit this year and he’s gone.

The lack of in-game / in-series adjustments in every series were glaringly obvious and is what eventually caused us an early exit. Allowing D Lo to be abused by Malone’s plan on EVERY possession was embarrassing to watch.

Not fixing it by hiring competent staff might cost Ham another early exit, from coaching the lakeshow.


EDIT: Yes, with the roster we have Ham is the weak link. I can’t think of a coach who wouldn’t want our roster.

[tamaraw08]

This team is going downhill so fast with 2 of their aging and brittle Superstars tired and overworked.
Ham is saying
1.team didn’t execute=translation. I had good strategies but players failed to follow them.
2. Team got outworked/out hustled = translation-it’s not my fault players didn’t put enough effort.
It seems like he has given up on D’Lo even before he got injured, preferring to play defenders like Cam and Vando whom he has FAILED to hide on offense. All they do is camp in open corners and miss 80% if the time.
Team is ranked 23rd in 3 pt shooting even with 5 players hitting above 37% .

[MJISTHEGOAT]

most nights it looks like the shooting is the problem .. lots of open corner 3’s not dropping….

[stan francisco]

Mike Budenholzer, Kenny Atkinson, Sam Cassell, Jerry Stackhouse, Becky Hammon.

I’d take either one over Ham, about a year ago.

Do it Rob!

[stan francisco]

most nights it looks like the shooting is the problem .. lots of open corner 3’s not dropping….

When players don’t want to play for their coach, the defense starts to falter, shots don’t fall, turnovers run wild, the first quarter is lost — all of it seems to be due to a team wide lack of excitement.

It’s the coach.

A trade of some one-way players for two-way players are needed, sure, but that’s to polish off what is otherwise a very well constructed roster with some very good contracts. It’s not the roster.

Ham is clueless.

[MAMBAEMD]

Mike Budenholzer, Kenny Atkinson, Sam Cassell, Jerry Stackhouse, Becky Hammon.

I’d take either one over Ham, about a year ago.

Do it Rob!

Budenholzer would be my top choice although I doubt he'd take a job mid-year without a very lucrative and long-term deal.

I really like Kenny Atkinson too, but he chose to go back to GSW as an assistant when he was offered a head coaching job in the off-season. he might take the Laker job now though.

Cassel and Stackhouse and Hamon are intriguing and I'm sure very talented, but if you are going to make a change mid-season, with a team that has AD and LBJ playing great ball, you go for a more proven coach.

[LAKESHOW]

There's alotta good points made, all valid. But I'll just point to 1. His inbound plays. Phil, Doc, many coaches have plays that either work, or jump start the offense, or get the team moving in a certain direction, like force the ball inside to Shaq or whoever.
HAMs inbound plays lead to nothing, sometimes turnovers, easily defended, has no clue. Just an awful mess, and we are wasting time with Bron having very little left in the tank of his career

[stan francisco]

Mike Budenholzer, Kenny Atkinson, Sam Cassell, Jerry Stackhouse, Becky Hammon.

I’d take either one over Ham, about a year ago.

Do it Rob!

Budenholzer would be my top choice although I doubt he'd take a job mid-year without a very lucrative and long-term deal.

I really like Kenny Atkinson too, but he chose to go back to GSW as an assistant when he was offered a head coaching job in the off-season. he might take the Laker job now though.

Cassel and Stackhouse and Hamon are intriguing and I'm sure very talented, but if you are going to make a change mid-season, with a team that has AD and LBJ playing great ball, you go for a more proven coach.

I’d go with Kenny Atkinson, who chose not to be the head coach for another rebuilding team. Becky Hammon is more accomplished than the rest of the outliers I listed but I’d also go with Hammon, Cassell, Rondo, or Stackhouse over Ham in a heartbeat.

Offer Budenholzer a good deal for half a season, make it a trial. Bud or Atkinson can’t be worse than Ham.

[stan francisco]

I’m here to break it to you, the Heat fall a lot farther if Butler leaves next year than if Spo does. The Lakers far better if they added Jaren Jackson than they would if they added Phil Jackson. Stop putting coaches on the same level as great players. They aren’t remotely.

Sure you have to reach a certain level of competence. But at the nba level, a large number of the coaches are of the same skill level. Ham included. Again our fan base is nuts with its over criticism of the coaches.

That’s not the way this works. You obviously don’t replace prime lebron with Phil Jackson and expect team to be neutral. Terrible argument. You’re comparing coaches to other coaches and what impact they have. The top of the nba isn’t that different in talent. What separates team success is having coaches like doc rivers (if you bring up the 08 ring rmr that was the year he had thibs as assistant doing all his defensive schemes and bos was a goat defensive team that year) or mark Jackson or Darvin ham vs coaches like spo, Kerr (I mean legit same early playoff exit team diff coach year after mark Jackson leaves becomes dynasty???), brad Stevens, etc… hell if we had Vogel I think we make the finals. Someone who didn’t think it would be a good idea to go under every screen and play drop and leave Murray, mpj, and Kcp WIDE open bc they were scared of a joker layup. Someone who didn’t play dlo when the other teams coach and players came out after game 1 and said they were hunting dlo. Each game decided by 10 points or less basically. A better coach gets you over the hump. You are blind if you think we replace Phil w dantoni and win as many rings as we did. Sht is decided on the margins in the playoffs. Being lackadaisical about it, especially when there are no salary cap constraints for coaching, is really stupid

Ham might legit be a bottom 5 coach in the nba. He stubbornly played Malik beaseley starter minutes for a good majority of the season since the trade. He refused to play backup centers (I know bamba sucks but you gotta give guys run to gel w the team and see what you’ve got and if you can give beaseley 30 mins to brick 3s and play no d you can sure as sht give Mo 10 mins instead of dnps to see if he belongs on this team), and just look how badly we got outscored without AD in the game consistently. He was rolling Gabriel out at the 5 when it yielded the other team a bucket every possession. He benched hachimura after the guy played well in the reg season. In the playoffs, per nba stats, rui held joker to 40% fg shooting when matchup up w joker and yet we only played them for 6 mpg (total 25 minutes) against each other for the series. Do you rmr at the end of game 1, we all thought we had something when rui shut down jokic and ad came out roaming and we came back? Then game two inexplicably we went completely away from it and went back to AD on joker. If Austin Reaves doesn’t explode in the second half and bail out this team (and just addition by subtraction of Westbrook gone), you’d be calling for his head too but you don’t have the ability to see the minutiae of what coaching impacts (as you yourself said you clearly think it doesn’t make a difference). Having a Anthony Davis, lbj, and the leagues leading guard in efficienncy can mask a lot of problems with our decision making but come playoffs those problems show against the elite teams. Maybe your aspiration is just to lose to den in the ecf every year idk. Bottom line: schemes and rotations matter in the post season

That’s exactly the way this works. Coaches aren’t going to do **** if they don’t have the right players around them. My entire argument is that the front office and players make a far greater impact on success than coaches do. And it’s without question. If you give Phil Jackson or Spo or Pop the Charlotte Hornets or the Houston Rockets they will still be terrible. If you give the Bulls or Earriors Darvin Ham, they still win the title. That’s how this works.

The Lakers failures the last couple years had far more to do with injuries and poor front office decisions than Ham or Vogel or anyone else.

The Nuggets this year were a better team, period. They had more guys that could hit shots than we did. Much of the way Ham played was similar to the way Spo played them the next round. Again at the end of the day most nba level coaches are going to come to similar conclusions on plans schemes given the personnel involved.

So no you are dead wrong about much of what you are talking about, half of which I didn’t read because it’s the same circle of nonsense that keeps getting spewed over and over. And it’s based on Ham did this or Ham didn’t do that. It’s the same recycled complaints Lakers fans had about Ham they said about Vogel, D’Antoni, Brown…but mysteriously those coaches go elsewhere and win coach of the year. It’s all nonsense.

Ham is a fine coach. He may not do it exactly as you would but I’m sure he thinks about these things at a much greater depth than you do while your jerking the slurpy machine at 7/11 or AM/PM for $12 an hour. As all NBA level coaches do,

Ham has had 10 different starting lineups in 33 games. Spolstra has had 19. With a significantly worse roster and without Jimmy Butler, and way more injuries than us, he still handed Ham a good ole beat down despite a lesser roster.

If you’re still wondering about the loss to Denver, we got out coached. Watch the series again and focus on D Lo’s defense. Ham was forced to bench our starting PG, clueless as to how to adjust and counter punch. Any coach with a brain doesn’t start a one way player in the WCF. You can’t win playing five against four on defense. That, and the misuse of Rui as mentioned above and the complete absence of adjustments was easily exploited by Denver’s much better coach. Vandy’s injury was a decisive factor, too, but not nearly as much so as Ham’s lame coaching was. We got as far as we did despite, not thanks to, Ham’s coaching.

So, I respectfully disagree that Ham is a fine coach. Imo he’s at the bottom of the barrel in the NBA and has no business coaching any Laker roster featuring LBJ and AD. It’s a waste of LBJ’s last years in the league.

The experiment with a rookie coach didn’t work. Time to replace him before this season is lost, too.