Ariza/Vujacic on-court argument

[dockingsched]

that was the play? man, looks like there's something deeper than a simple bad shot/missed pass.

[milesfides]

^paris hilton. called it.

[crazyeights]

I think we need to start Vujacic, ironically, at PG. At least he can then be accountable for making decisions and getting his teammates involved.

As for now, he's in the game to shoot the ball, so I'm not sure what Ariza is so upset about. The Machine can't pass up a shot.

Somebody plays favorites.

Actually I don't, I'm just interested in ways to improve the team, even if it means supporting unpopular ideas. To me, suggesting different ideas is a little more fun than accepting the status quo.

Back to the subject at hand, nobody deserves to get chewed out like that on the court. That's a big no no in sports, which is why you hardly see it except for rookies or douche bags. I remember just one game when Kobe did this, it was a few years ago at the end of a game, Kobe dished the ball to Mihm, who, despite the lack of time clock, panicked and threw it back to Kobe who didn't have time to take a shot. As the buzzer sounded, Kobe slammed the ball to the ground and yelled at Mihm, then stormed off. Kind of a heat of a moment thing, and it really was a play that blew the game. But even Kobe shouldn't be excused for that, and Kobe never did anything like that again.

I know MJ did some jerk moves in practice, but I can't remember too many games where he humiliated his teammates on camera in front of a crowd. He probably did, but I'm guessing he didn't do what Ariza did.

Phil Jackson did the right thing. Ariza was out of line. It's not about even about star privileges or whatever. Teammates don't do that to each other.

End of story.

Star privileges? As for what happened to Ariza and Sasha we don't really know the situation, so we can't really comment.

And I'm sorry, the reason Sasha at PG is funny is because he has not shown the play-making ability (passing or handles) to be a starting point guard let alone being much more of an upgrade over Fisher.

Also, what would we do with the bench? Would Fisher play the two with Farmar? That's a small front court that just got older and slower. Fish isn't coming off the bench just yet, and if he does I doubt it's for Sasha.

Maybe in a few months if Sasha improves on his decision making and gets healthy (aka more athletic) because he's not there right now.

[crazyeights]

You can see a little bit of their spat here


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdSxOciAWEs

What was so terrible about that shot, aside from Sasha missing?

He didn't hold onto the ball, he caught it and shot it.

He had an open shot, the defender was sagging. Yeah, Ariza was wide open, Sasha should have passed it to him, and that's why he was pissed...but he needs to calm down. This happens in a game.

What needs to calm down is whoever wrote the original article and the media that's asking all of these questions about a pretty non-issue. It's just so melodramatic. If anyone has noticed, sports has become reality TV lately. Watching ESPN now feels like MTV. There's no safe place to go for just sports without this kind of stuff.

And from that video it looked like frustration. Ariza, for a guy who plays with a lot of energy, was hardly animated at all. He raised his finger to point? That's it? This is what we're spending our time discussing

Man I have to get back to work.

[ReaListik]

I think we need to start Vujacic, ironically, at PG. At least he can then be accountable for making decisions and getting his teammates involved.

As for now, he's in the game to shoot the ball, so I'm not sure what Ariza is so upset about. The Machine can't pass up a shot.

Somebody plays favorites.

Actually I don't, I'm just interested in ways to improve the team, even if it means supporting unpopular ideas. To me, suggesting different ideas is a little more fun than accepting the status quo.

Back to the subject at hand, nobody deserves to get chewed out like that on the court. That's a big no no in sports, which is why you hardly see it except for rookies or douche bags. I remember just one game when Kobe did this, it was a few years ago at the end of a game, Kobe dished the ball to Mihm, who, despite the lack of time clock, panicked and threw it back to Kobe who didn't have time to take a shot. As the buzzer sounded, Kobe slammed the ball to the ground and yelled at Mihm, then stormed off. Kind of a heat of a moment thing, and it really was a play that blew the game. But even Kobe shouldn't be excused for that, and Kobe never did anything like that again.

I know MJ did some jerk moves in practice, but I can't remember too many games where he humiliated his teammates on camera in front of a crowd. He probably did, but I'm guessing he didn't do what Ariza did.

Phil Jackson did the right thing. Ariza was out of line. It's not about even about star privileges or whatever. Teammates don't do that to each other.

End of story.

I agree with you totally. I don't care who you are, or who you think you are, people are people just the same and you don't humiliate each other and show disrespect like that on the court. Stuff happens in the heat of the moment, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad..and sometimes you wish you never laced 'em up and called in sick. Jordan always seemed to wait until he got to the bench, and then glared down the bench at whoever and instilled the fear of God in them lol.

I think Kobe has toned it down considerably even since 2 seasons ago when he was really frustrated and hated having to drop 40-50 just to keep competitive for the playoffs. The one thing I have seen from Kobe is that if something doesn't go well or he sees a teammate that's not doing well, he'll go over to them and give them a pat on the back and chat with them for encouragement as the leader. I never really saw Jordan do that with his teammates.

1 play is one play regardless of if it's good or bad, it's no excuse to get up on Sasha's face like that, especially when Sasha is on the totally opposite end of the court...in front of the Laker girls. You're professionals, but most importantly, you're full grown men, this isn't the YMCA high school league.

[lakersfanatic]

I think ariza was just upset because the machine does what the machine does... catch and shoot. I didn't see much of a pause. But ariza was wide open so that extra passed would have made it a higher chance of making it in.

Each player is trying to get the most out of the limited amount of time they have so i can understand them getting at each other for it. I don't think it's negative chemistry more like a motivation or teams telling each other.. you're not alone. You scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.

[Slava]

Well.. its definitely not fine when your whole team is preaching team play and making the extra pass. Hell even Kobe has embraced that philosophy and how many good looks haven't they got each other by just making the extra pass. Fisher, Odom, Kobe and Pau have all played selflessly since last season and Sasha should follow suit. Ariza was perfectly justified being annoyed there and I hope Sasha learns it soon if he's still serious about playing more PG on this team.

I'm not saying its a mistake because he'd have made it 9/10 times but when its a team philosophy, you need to stand by it.

[El Hardee]

Jordan socked up Kerr, maybe Kobe should take after Jordan and Pimp slap his lil [racist comment removed]back up SG too.

I was just playing around, sorry if I offended anyone with my "racist" (what a joke) comment.

[Kilroy]

While I don't think this particular issue is that big a deal, I think there is a deeper problem with how Sasha interacts with the team.

This isn't the first time this has happened with him... At various times, Farmar, Bynum, and I believe Kobe have had angry exchanges with him about ball distribution. I think he's a little too confident in his shot...

I think this is a pretty clear example of why he would be a horrible choice at starting PG...

I love Sasha because he's never afraid to shoot the ball and because he's cocky enough to get in the other guys face/head on D... Those are great characteristics for a guy to come off the bench with at SG. But they're the same characteristics that make him a liability as a starter and especially at the 1.

[Erik Eleven]

Big deal. I'm sure they both learned something. Personally, I learned that I'm getting sick of waiting for Sasha to play the right way. He's not a rookie anymore. For a split second there, he thought about it, then decided to shoot it himself instead. Like Kobe used to do when he had Kwame open for a jumper.

Sasha should have made the extra pass, period. Ariza shouldn't rat his team mate out in public, period.

Ariza: *points finger* "You tell me to dish it when you're open, and then you jack up contested threes when I'm wide open?"

Sasha: "I make my shots."

Ariza: "Nice make."

Phil: "Girls, shut the eff up!"


Even if his little finger pointing was ill justified and in bad judgment, I love that Ariza holds his team mates accountable. If you're on the right side of the law, you can sometimes do that. It only means that he really wants the team to play right. Sasha should have dished the ball to the corner, there's no doubt about it. Gotta love Ariza's intensity. It seems to me as if it all comes from a good place.

[TonyMontana]

You can see a little bit of their spat here


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdSxOciAWEs

What was so terrible about that shot, aside from Sasha missing?

He didn't hold onto the ball, he caught it and shot it.

He had an open shot, the defender was sagging. Yeah, Ariza was wide open, Sasha should have passed it to him, and that's why he was pissed...but he needs to calm down. This happens in a game.

I agree with you Miles on both of your posts, BUT........ At times you need to let out your frustrations right then and there.
If you dont and you hold it in to get to the locker room, then whats the point. Ya they are pro athletes/teammates and they should respect one and other, but then again they are professionals and need to deal with their issues the best way they can.
Looking at the video clearly shows that this might have been an issue that was boiling before that play. I bet you Sasha and Ariza have something personal going on against one and other.
You dont walk all the way to the other side of the court and stick your finger in your teammates face and bitch in front of everyone simply cause you were open and you didnt get a pass.
I wouldve waited for Sasha to get to the bench and voiced my anger, but for Ariza to walk all the way and get personal with Sasha I think there is more to it.
But then again I always think there is always more to everything than you see............

[Gus McCrae]

I can see both sides there. The "correct play" would've been to kick it back to Ariza, i wouldn't consider that an open shot. But whatever, there are errors made in every game. I personally consider it rude as hell for someone to stick their finger in my face and my initial reaction would be to slap his hand away.

If Ariza wants to chew him out tell him he screwed up and should've swung the pass whatever, but what he pretty much did was embarass Sasha publically in front of the Lakers, the opponents, and pretty much everyone in the arena. That is uncalled for. I don't care who he is.

That being said, I'm still buying an Ariza jersey.

[TonyMontana]

I can see both sides there. The "correct play" would've been to kick it back to Ariza, i wouldn't consider that an open shot. But whatever, there are errors made in every game. I personally consider it rude as hell for someone to stick their finger in my face and my initial reaction would be to slap his hand away.

If Ariza wants to chew him out tell him he screwed up and should've swung the pass whatever, but what he pretty much did was embarass Sasha publically in front of the Lakers, the opponents, and pretty much everyone in the arena. That is uncalled for. I don't care who he is.

That being said, I'm still buying an Ariza jersey.

See thats why I think there is more to this than we think.
Ariza either overreacted or something is going on between these two guys.

[tkb]

I don't look negatively on this. I think it's good to see players holding each other accountable for poor decision making. This is what being an elite team is all about. Making each other better.

[milesfides]

I think there's good ways and bad ways to hold each other accountable, and I remember when Kobe got upset at Mihm a couple years ago, it was an actual issue here on the boards.

"Kobe Hates His Teammates"

"Kobe is a douche bag"

etc.,

Now if Kobe is held to that standard of respecting teammates, than Ariza should as well.

It's not a huge issue, of course not, but the point still stands that what Ariza did was wrong. It could be dismissed by a variety of excuses, but the actual fact of the matter is that a bench player demonstratively upbraided a fellow bench player during a game in front of the home crowd. That's a jerk move, but more importantly, that's an anomaly to our team spirit for the past two years.

I think our team captains in Kobe and Fisher set a good example of camaraderie and pulling for one another.

Maybe that's a bad thing, maybe they should come down hard on their teammates and embarrass them in front of the crowd and camera, perhaps that would motivate them better.

If not, then what Ariza did was wrong on both counts, on an ethical level as well as a practical one.

I like Ariza a lot, I think he's been our third best player so far, but if the greatest bball player on the planet is showing patience with his teammates, then Ariza better get a clue.

[Desiderium]

that missed dunk was jus terrible...lol.

is there any video footage of this

unfortunately no...they didnt consider it a "highlight reel" move lol.

[tkb]

I think there's good ways and bad ways to hold each other accountable, and I remember when Kobe got upset at Mihm a couple years ago, it was an actual issue here on the boards.

"Kobe Hates His Teammates"

"Kobe is a douche bag"

etc.,

Now if Kobe is held to that standard of respecting teammates, than Ariza should as well.

It's not a huge issue, of course not, but the point still stands that what Ariza did was wrong. It could be dismissed by a variety of excuses, but the actual fact of the matter is that a bench player demonstratively upbraided a fellow bench player during a game in front of the home crowd. That's a jerk move, but more importantly, that's an anomaly to our team spirit for the past two years.

I think our team captains in Kobe and Fisher set a good example of camaraderie and pulling for one another.

Maybe that's a bad thing, maybe they should come down hard on their teammates and embarrass them in front of the crowd and camera, perhaps that would motivate them better.

If not, then what Ariza did was wrong on both counts, on an ethical level as well as a practical one.

I like Ariza a lot, I think he's been our third best player so far, but if the greatest bball player on the planet is showing patience with his teammates, then Ariza better get a clue.

I can totally see your points, but there is the different side to this as well. If a player of Kobe's stature can play team ball, a bench player like Sasha should be able to as well.

What Sasha pulled there was also a jerk move imo. He had a player who has been shooting equally or better than himself this season from 3 wide open and decided the ball had a better chance to go in if he took a longer shot with coverage. That's uncalled for, and not how to play team basketball.

Accountability has to be there for the team to be as successful as we want to. Was it the right way to go about it what Ariza did? No. I think he could've handled it better, but I like that he's vocal when someone isn't playing within the team concept, which is exactly what Sasha did on that particular possession.

[Erik Eleven]

Again, I don't think this is a big deal.

I think he could've handled it better, but I like that he's vocal when someone isn't playing within the team concept, which is exactly what Sasha did on that particular possession.

That's kind of what I meant when I said it seemed to have come from a good place with Ariza.


You make some very good points, miles. No double standards should be allowed, indeed. Going back a few years, if Kobe always barked at them because he wanted them to be less selfish and play better team ball, I would have always backed him. All the way. But too often, it didn't seem that way. At least not to me. Yelling at Luke for missing a buzzer beater shot leads nowhere good. Yelling at somebody for not giving him the ball because he's better than them isn't good enough either. That type of stuff I do have a problem with regardless of who the player is. That's destructive ass-h•le criticism for all the wrong reasons — the kick him when he's already down on himself type. My basic principle would be, if a player is playing at the top of his ability and makes a lack of skill mistake, no harm done. Pat his back in encouragement. But, if a player knows better and still takes the vanity shot, he deserves to be slapped around for not playing the game the right way.

In this case, I would say it's fair constructive criticism, just executed the wrong way. The extra pass, the extra pass, the extra pass. That's what this was about. Sasha wanted to redeem himself by draining some shots, and he put his own before the team. Ariza wanted the shot because it would have been the right way for the offense to finish that possession, not because he wanted to shine, and not because he doesn't trust Sasha's ability. They'd have an open shot or have them broken down with a baseline dribble. An easy bucket means no transition fast break to defend. That would have been the right way to play and Sasha knows it. I can only speculate, but I think that's what upset Ariza so badly — they've been grilled about this type of careless stuff in practice and review sessions. Poor offensive execution like this is what has caused us our only defensive problems, and Sasha knows it. He still took the shot.

Again, Sasha made a mistake. Big deal. Ariza called him on it, only he did it the wrong way. Big deal.

[RJM]

I politely refuse to believe this existed. I think this is all made up by Phil Jackson.