Jarrett Allen for Brandon Ingram

[louc1970]

If Cleveland is trying to keep Mitchell can they even afford this? Ingram is probably going to be looking for a near max which means the Cavs would be looking at $160m+ in salary for Garland/Mitchell/Ingram/Mobley. Add in Strus and you're looking at about $10m to fill out the rest of roster before you hit the tax.

My mantra is simple. If the Cavs want to keep Mitchell - and he agrees to resign - move Garland for the missing pieces.
One option is Garland/Strus to Miami for Herro/Robinson/#15.
Cleveland puts the ball in Mitchell’s hand, puts shooters on the perimeters.
Miami gets a PG to play with Adebayo.

[NYG]

If Cleveland is trying to keep Mitchell can they even afford this? Ingram is probably going to be looking for a near max which means the Cavs would be looking at $160m+ in salary for Garland/Mitchell/Ingram/Mobley. Add in Strus and you're looking at about $10m to fill out the rest of roster before you hit the tax.

My mantra is simple. If the Cavs want to keep Mitchell - and he agrees to resign - move Garland for the missing pieces.
One option is Garland/Strus to Miami for Herro/Robinson/#15.
Cleveland puts the ball in Mitchell’s hand, puts shooters on the perimeters.
Miami gets a PG to play with Adebayo.

Would Cleveland basically pivot to a rebuild if Mitchell didn't extend with rumblings he was going to leave?

[toooskies]

If Cleveland is trying to keep Mitchell can they even afford this? Ingram is probably going to be looking for a near max which means the Cavs would be looking at $160m+ in salary for Garland/Mitchell/Ingram/Mobley. Add in Strus and you're looking at about $10m to fill out the rest of roster before you hit the tax.

My mantra is simple. If the Cavs want to keep Mitchell - and he agrees to resign - move Garland for the missing pieces.
One option is Garland/Strus to Miami for Herro/Robinson/#15.
Cleveland puts the ball in Mitchell’s hand, puts shooters on the perimeters.
Miami gets a PG to play with Adebayo.

Would Cleveland basically pivot to a rebuild if Mitchell didn't extend with rumblings he was going to leave?

Can't rebuild without your own picks.

If Mitchell doesn't extend, Cleveland's best option is to trade Mitchell and a big for a better player, if available. Luka or Giannis or Embiid. Might wait till the deadline to see if they get restless.

Second best option is a young player with a long runway to improve. Wagner, Murphy, Coby, Jabari. Somebody who has a shot of being a top 20 NBA player, even if they aren't one now.

Next option is not-too-old slightly lesser stars. Brown or maaaybe White from Boston. Ingram I guess, but I'd rather poke around Zion. Lauri. KAT? (Randle?)

After that, you look at trades for older stars like LeBron, Butler, George S&T. You probably want those teams to add value.

It's only after those options are exhausted do you contemplate pick-heavy packages, and you look to move them when something good comes available.

[jbk1234]

If Cleveland is trying to keep Mitchell can they even afford this? Ingram is probably going to be looking for a near max which means the Cavs would be looking at $160m+ in salary for Garland/Mitchell/Ingram/Mobley. Add in Strus and you're looking at about $10m to fill out the rest of roster before you hit the tax.

My mantra is simple. If the Cavs want to keep Mitchell - and he agrees to resign - move Garland for the missing pieces.
One option is Garland/Strus to Miami for Herro/Robinson/#15.
Cleveland puts the ball in Mitchell’s hand, puts shooters on the perimeters.
Miami gets a PG to play with Adebayo.

Why would the Cavs trade the two best players in the deal? This is just straight downgrading while taking on questionable contracts and Mitchell is the one who recruited Strus.

[greg4012]

The big picture is Brandon Ingram is more injury-prone than Allen, even adjusting for him playing a less impacting position.

Most of Allen's career injuries historically have been of the fluke variety-- bruised ribs, fractured finger after hitting it on the rim, then a peppering of sprained ankles and illnesses. Ingram's injuries have almost all been lower body injuries-- knees, ankles, Achilles, feet, hips. Those are more concerning wear-and-tear injuries than Allen's.

And centers like Allen are still largely neutered as playoff bball advances.

Cool!

They are neutered because they often can't move their feet on the perimeter, are awful free throw shooters, or are zeroes on offense when they get schemed out of plays on defense.

None of that is true of Allen.

Let's disagree with regards to Allen's ability to move in space for the playoff game in a manner sufficient to not be exploited--and on his offense.

We'll find out if he ever plays in a game beyond Round 1. Bigs like Allen can still function as role players in limited minutes in this environment, but they become food (or injured) over extended minutes.

[toooskies]

And centers like Allen are still largely neutered as playoff bball advances.

Cool!

They are neutered because they often can't move their feet on the perimeter, are awful free throw shooters, or are zeroes on offense when they get schemed out of plays on defense.

None of that is true of Allen.

Let's disagree with regards to Allen's ability to move in space for the playoff game in a manner sufficient to not be exploited--and on his offense.

We'll find out if he ever plays in a game beyond Round 1. Bigs like Allen can still function as role players in limited minutes in this environment, but they become food (or injured) over extended minutes.

I think you're both putting Allen in a category he doesn't belong (lumbering bigs) while also putting Ingram in a category he doesn't belong (game-changing big wings). Allen doesn't have the weaknesses that drive other bigs off the floor in the playoffs, and Ingram doesn't have the positive impact that you associate with the wings you'd group him with.

In other words, Ingram might be the least-good version of the archetype you're attributing him while Allen is simply not in the lumbering big archetype that is "food" in the playoffs.

[greg4012]

They are neutered because they often can't move their feet on the perimeter, are awful free throw shooters, or are zeroes on offense when they get schemed out of plays on defense.

None of that is true of Allen.

Let's disagree with regards to Allen's ability to move in space for the playoff game in a manner sufficient to not be exploited--and on his offense.

We'll find out if he ever plays in a game beyond Round 1. Bigs like Allen can still function as role players in limited minutes in this environment, but they become food (or injured) over extended minutes.

I think you're both putting Allen in a category he doesn't belong (lumbering bigs) while also putting Ingram in a category he doesn't belong (game-changing big wings). Allen doesn't have the weaknesses that drive other bigs off the floor in the playoffs, and Ingram doesn't have the positive impact that you associate with the wings you'd group him with.

In other words, Ingram might be the least-good version of the archetype you're attributing him while Allen is simply not in the lumbering big archetype that is "food" in the playoffs.

I'll believe that's the case on Allen when I see it.

All starting centers can survive some switching in regular season and 1st round ball. It's against the real top contenders in advanced rounds where it becomes glaringly exploited. I wonder if we'll ever find out.

I haven't seen such swift-footedness from Allen. Just passable.

[Euphonetiks]

I think you're both putting Allen in a category he doesn't belong (lumbering bigs) while also putting Ingram in a category he doesn't belong (game-changing big wings). Allen doesn't have the weaknesses that drive other bigs off the floor in the playoffs, and Ingram doesn't have the positive impact that you associate with the wings you'd group him with.

In other words, Ingram might be the least-good version of the archetype you're attributing him while Allen is simply not in the lumbering big archetype that is "food" in the playoffs.

He's not a lumbering big, but he is just a rim runner/rebounder/rim protector. Allen can't guard on the perimeter and Allen can't space the floor. Non-spacing, non-switchable bigs can feast in the regular season, but they become weak links as you progress in the playoffs.

Ingram got shut down by Dort coming off an injury this year, that's life, but you are downplayign his ability to be impactful in the playoffs when the ability to make contested midrange shots becomes important. Ingram was an asbolute monster in his last healthy playoff series averaging 27/6.2/6.2 on 58.5% true shooting as the primary scorer/playmaker.

[louc1970]

If Cleveland is trying to keep Mitchell can they even afford this? Ingram is probably going to be looking for a near max which means the Cavs would be looking at $160m+ in salary for Garland/Mitchell/Ingram/Mobley. Add in Strus and you're looking at about $10m to fill out the rest of roster before you hit the tax.

My mantra is simple. If the Cavs want to keep Mitchell - and he agrees to resign - move Garland for the missing pieces.
One option is Garland/Strus to Miami for Herro/Robinson/#15.
Cleveland puts the ball in Mitchell’s hand, puts shooters on the perimeters.
Miami gets a PG to play with Adebayo.

Would Cleveland basically pivot to a rebuild if Mitchell didn't extend with rumblings he was going to leave?

No, they would have to trade Mitchell for a first option on offense or at least a Robin at SF.
Allen, Mobley, Garland are going to keep Cleveland competitive but they will not be more than a 2nd round team. If all are healthy, they are battling Boston in the East.

[mcfly1204]

My mantra is simple. If the Cavs want to keep Mitchell - and he agrees to resign - move Garland for the missing pieces.
One option is Garland/Strus to Miami for Herro/Robinson/#15.
Cleveland puts the ball in Mitchell’s hand, puts shooters on the perimeters.
Miami gets a PG to play with Adebayo.

Would Cleveland basically pivot to a rebuild if Mitchell didn't extend with rumblings he was going to leave?

No, they would have to trade Mitchell for a first option on offense or at least a Robin at SF.
Allen, Mobley, Garland are going to keep Cleveland competitive but they will not be more than a 2nd round team. If all are healthy, they are battling Boston in the East.

Current version of those players, sure. Peak version of those players, TBD. I fully expect Cleveland to aggressively push Mobley as one the primary options on offense next season. If he can do it, they can contend. If he can't, they'll have to take a step back.

[toooskies]

I think you're both putting Allen in a category he doesn't belong (lumbering bigs) while also putting Ingram in a category he doesn't belong (game-changing big wings). Allen doesn't have the weaknesses that drive other bigs off the floor in the playoffs, and Ingram doesn't have the positive impact that you associate with the wings you'd group him with.

In other words, Ingram might be the least-good version of the archetype you're attributing him while Allen is simply not in the lumbering big archetype that is "food" in the playoffs.

He's not a lumbering big, but he is just a rim runner/rebounder/rim protector. Allen can't guard on the perimeter and Allen can't space the floor. Non-spacing, non-switchable bigs can feast in the regular season, but they become weak links as you progress in the playoffs.

Ingram got shut down by Dort coming off an injury this year, that's life, but you are downplayign his ability to be impactful in the playoffs when the ability to make contested midrange shots becomes important. Ingram was an asbolute monster in his last healthy playoff series averaging 27/6.2/6.2 on 58.5% true shooting as the primary scorer/playmaker.

I'm not going to weigh a 6-game sample where Ingram was slightly above average efficiency as some great example of his current value, particularly from two seasons ago, with injuries keeping him out of the playoffs last year and making him ineffective this year. And if you blame the 6'3" Dort for shutting him down, well, maybe he's not so valuable as a tall wing?

Generally, midrange shooters thrive in the playoffs by getting the same shot off that they've practiced hundreds of times. And then a defender figures out where those spots are and keep them from getting there. You can usually slow down most midrange shooters in the playoffs. Dort proved it's true of Ingram.

[Euphonetiks]

I'm not going to weigh a 6-game sample where Ingram was slightly above average efficiency as some great example of his current value, particularly from two seasons ago, with injuries keeping him out of the playoffs last year and making him ineffective this year. And if you blame the 6'3" Dort for shutting him down, well, maybe he's not so valuable as a tall wing?

Generally, midrange shooters thrive in the playoffs by getting the same shot off that they've practiced hundreds of times. And then a defender figures out where those spots are and keep them from getting there. You can usually slow down most midrange shooters in the playoffs. Dort proved it's true of Ingram.

So instead you weigh a 4 game sample size coming off injury against (one of?) the best on ball defender in the league as a great example of his current value. Just for fun, what's Luka's efficiency this series when Dort is on him?

[NYG]

My mantra is simple. If the Cavs want to keep Mitchell - and he agrees to resign - move Garland for the missing pieces.
One option is Garland/Strus to Miami for Herro/Robinson/#15.
Cleveland puts the ball in Mitchell’s hand, puts shooters on the perimeters.
Miami gets a PG to play with Adebayo.

Would Cleveland basically pivot to a rebuild if Mitchell didn't extend with rumblings he was going to leave?

Can't rebuild without your own picks.

If Mitchell doesn't extend, Cleveland's best option is to trade Mitchell and a big for a better player, if available. Luka or Giannis or Embiid. Might wait till the deadline to see if they get restless.

Second best option is a young player with a long runway to improve. Wagner, Murphy, Coby, Jabari. Somebody who has a shot of being a top 20 NBA player, even if they aren't one now.

Next option is not-too-old slightly lesser stars. Brown or maaaybe White from Boston. Ingram I guess, but I'd rather poke around Zion. Lauri. KAT? (Randle?)

After that, you look at trades for older stars like LeBron, Butler, George S&T. You probably want those teams to add value.

It's only after those options are exhausted do you contemplate pick-heavy packages, and you look to move them when something good comes available.

Assuming the suitors are Miami, Lakers, Nets and Rockets... which would be your favorite return even if it needs a 3rd or 4th team?

[toooskies]

I'm not going to weigh a 6-game sample where Ingram was slightly above average efficiency as some great example of his current value, particularly from two seasons ago, with injuries keeping him out of the playoffs last year and making him ineffective this year. And if you blame the 6'3" Dort for shutting him down, well, maybe he's not so valuable as a tall wing?

Generally, midrange shooters thrive in the playoffs by getting the same shot off that they've practiced hundreds of times. And then a defender figures out where those spots are and keep them from getting there. You can usually slow down most midrange shooters in the playoffs. Dort proved it's true of Ingram.

So instead you weigh a 4 game sample size coming off injury against (one of?) the best on ball defender in the league as a great example of his current value. Just for fun, what's Luka's efficiency this series when Dort is on him?

Luka is more hurt than Ingram was.