MN-GSW draft day

[shrink]

Shrinks deal of AR, Maggs, BW for Al seems ok value to me

Just wanted to clarify that this is not my deal.

You posted that basis of a deal earlier.. Whatever... It was so people knew where the idea came from.

It wasn't from me, and that's kind of the point. I don't even post trades with GSW in them anymore because I think the responses from the GSW fanbase is so out of touch with reality.

Now I know this comes off as fighting words, but what I actually feel is sadness. In fact, there is no fanbase I have this much regret for. GSW has a lot of passionate posters, and they also have some interesting positions that I hadn't considered. I still read GSW trades looking for these kernels. I feel like I'm listening to Rush Limbaugh or ABC's Sunday news shows wading through mountains of garbage because some of what their points are real gems (and a few of the posters can be pretty funny). But when it comes to a realistic evaluation of their own players, particularly young ones, their loudest voices are simply disconnected, regardless of how many moves they see in real life from the GSW front office. So for determining a team's local trade value for their players - the main service posters can provide for this board - its a waste of smart people who have drank too much kool-ade.

I first posted in this thread because I saw a somewhat reasonable trade, a somewhat reasonable decline, and then the typical over-the-top decline ("include the #2 before we consider it!"). It makes me feel sad to see attempts at legitimate GSW trades keep going down this same path. If the loudest GSW voices were total idiots, then I wouldn't care and would just stop reading the posts altogether. However, you're not, and that's why it makes me sad and frustrated.

[gswhoops]

shrink - I'd agree with Coxy and say that only Curry is really "untouchable." Randolph might get close simply because his injury makes his value to other teams lower then his value to us, but if someone offered something for him that matched our value we'd definitely consider dealing him.

Saying Ellis, Biedrins and Morrow are untouchable is absurd. Hell, we might not even resign Morrow.

[shangrila]

Off topic a little, but how is Morrow in other parts of his game? We all know he's a good shooter, but is he a smart player, is he unselfish, does he put effort in defensively, does he have the physical tools to be good defensively, etc?

[St.Nick]

Lets just keep it simple and do Monta for Jefferson. Fits a need for both sides.

[john2jer]

Monta doesn't fit a need for the Wolves. Yeah he can score, but we need size at the 2, and someone who's good for ball movement, can post up, and play defense. Monta isn't a good fit. Not saying he's a bad player, but he's not the type the Wolves need.

[St.Nick]

Sorry to sidetrack, but who do you see the Wolves acquiring this year at the two that provides all that you are looking for (if you don't get E.Turner)?

[turk3d]

LOL @ us trading players we want to keep for players you want to get rid of.

[john2jer]

Sorry to sidetrack, but who do you see the Wolves acquiring this year at the two that provides all that you are looking for (if you don't get E.Turner)?

Evan Turner would be the preference. If we don't get Turner, I assume the belief is we're targeting a SF who can be one of our top scorers, post up, rebound, play defense, and then shift Brewer back to the 2.

Just because the Wolves might miss out on Turner, doesn't mean they should be stupid and trade for a player who is the complete opposite of what they're looking for.

Again, not saying Monta Ellis is a bad player, but he's the complete opposite of what the Wolves want in a lead scorer.

[shrink]

Sorry to sidetrack, but who do you see the Wolves acquiring this year at the two that provides all that you are looking for (if you don't get E.Turner)?

Most of us have our eyes shut as tightly as possible to this very real probability!

[St.Nick]

Sorry to sidetrack, but who do you see the Wolves acquiring this year at the two that provides all that you are looking for (if you don't get E.Turner)?

Evan Turner would be the preference. If we don't get Turner, I assume the belief is we're targeting a SF who can be one of our top scorers, post up, rebound, play defense, and then shift Brewer back to the 2.

Just because the Wolves might miss out on Turner, doesn't mean they should be stupid and trade for a player who is the complete opposite of what they're looking for.

Again, not saying Monta Ellis is a bad player, but he's the complete opposite of what the Wolves want in a lead scorer.

I think your GM is going to be forced to fill that hole at SG this year considering all of the draft picks and cap space you've got. Brewer at the deuce just ain't gonna cut it.

We'll see what happens, but I think you would be lucky to get Monta Ellis at the SG, even if he isn't "ideal."

[john2jer]

Sorry to sidetrack, but who do you see the Wolves acquiring this year at the two that provides all that you are looking for (if you don't get E.Turner)?

Evan Turner would be the preference. If we don't get Turner, I assume the belief is we're targeting a SF who can be one of our top scorers, post up, rebound, play defense, and then shift Brewer back to the 2.

Just because the Wolves might miss out on Turner, doesn't mean they should be stupid and trade for a player who is the complete opposite of what they're looking for.

Again, not saying Monta Ellis is a bad player, but he's the complete opposite of what the Wolves want in a lead scorer.

I think your GM is going to be forced to fill that hole at SG this year considering all of the draft picks and cap space you've got. Brewer at the deuce just ain't gonna cut it.

We'll see what happens, but I think you would be lucky to get Monta Ellis at the SG, even if he isn't "ideal."

There's plenty of options in the draft beyond Turner. Xavier Henry is a solid possibility as well.

Lucky to get Ellis? If he was able to be obtained without having to move assets, sure, but to trade for Ellis with what it would require? That's basically going to the store, not seeing what you want, and having to buy something anyways. That's how women shop. Ellis would be a VERY poor choice for the Wolves, there's no chance that Kahn trades for Ellis. He's not only not "ideal", but he's not even close to being a good choice. Think Shaq in Phoenix's offense. Shaq was a nice player, but a TERRIBLE fit and caused more problems than he solved.

And Brewer's a fine option at the 2 if you have a 3 that can be a lead scorer. Stick Brewer next to a Granger-type and we're fine.

[Krapinsky]

Monta doesn't fit a need for the Wolves. Yeah he can score, but we need size at the 2, and someone who's good for ball movement, can post up, and play defense. Monta isn't a good fit. Not saying he's a bad player, but he's not the type the Wolves need.

Yes every team needs Kobe Byrant, but we can't get him. If we got Monta we would be really lucky. The Wolves definitiely need a scorer at the 2 spot and I see no reason why Monta can't fill that void. Monta could certainly play off of Rubio a la JC Navarro right now and be very successful. Monta would be even more dynamic in a system designed to avoid double teams like the triangle.

Jefferson for Ellis, I'd prefer not to do though. I want the mississipi connection.

How about Love/Hollins/Sessions/Gomes for Monta/Watson?

[St.Nick]

David Kahn just put Minnesota fans and ownership through an absolutely dreadful season and traded away A LOT of players so that he could bring in big players this offseason.

The pressure is on him to bring in a good SG. If they don't get Evan Turner there really isn't a lot out there which you are likely to be able to acquire. You want someone that can score, pass, defend, and has ideal size. Sorry, but Kobe and Dwayne Wade are taken.

You still haven't told me who you think you can get this offseason that fits the description.

Ellis scores, can pass, CAN defend (whether he decides to do so or not is the question), can rebound, and is a top-10 SG.

The demand you are making for a player that is out of your reach is not in touch with reality.

[john2jer]

I guess I just can't see the Wolves having an interest in a 6'3" 180lb SG when we have a 6'0" PG. Yeah Rubio's coming in 1 or 2 years, most likely, but if John Wall and Rubio can't fit, how can Ellis and Rubio fit?

He had one really great efficient season, and since then he's been dropping. He's not a great outside shooter, and I'd expect him to get to the line more than he does. Wolves need help with outside shooting, and getting to the free throw line has been one of our greatest weaknesses. Not to mentioned perimeter defense and keeping guys out of the lane.

Again, Ellis ain't a bad player, just not what the Wolves should be looking for.

And seriously Krap, where does Kobe fit into this? That's basically just an insult there.

[Krapinsky]

I guess I just can't see the Wolves having an interest in a 6'3" 180lb SG when we have a 6'0" PG. Yeah Rubio's coming in 1 or 2 years, most likely, but if John Wall and Rubio can't fit, how can Ellis and Rubio fit?

He had one really great efficient season, and since then he's been dropping. He's not a great outside shooter, and I'd expect him to get to the line more than he does. Wolves need help with outside shooting, and getting to the free throw line has been one of our greatest weaknesses. Not to mentioned perimeter defense and keeping guys out of the lane.

Again, Ellis ain't a bad player, just not what the Wolves should be looking for.

And seriously Krap, where does Kobe fit into this? That's basically just an insult there.

C'mon now, when have I not been insulting?

But how many SG's do all the things that you described? That's fools gold. Kobe is the only one that comes to mind. Joe Johnson maybe?

[john2jer]

David Kahn just put Minnesota fans and ownership through an absolutely dreadful season and traded away A LOT of players so that he could bring in big players this offseason.

The pressure is on him to bring in a good SG. If they don't get Evan Turner there really isn't a lot out there which you are likely to be able to acquire. You want someone that can score, pass, defend, and has ideal size. Sorry, but Kobe and Dwayne Wade are taken.

You still haven't told me who you think you can get this offseason that fits the description.

Ellis scores, can pass, CAN defend (whether he decides to do so or not is the question), can rebound, and is a top-10 SG.

The demand you are making for a player that is out of your reach is not in touch with reality.

Who did Kahn trade away that was of value and part of the future of the Wolves? No one.

St Nick, you're taking this FAR too personal. I'm not saying Ellis is a bad player, he's a great player. What I'm saying is he's a BAD FIT for the Wolves. You have to be able to tell the difference.

What the hell do Kobe and Wade have to do with this? Only people who have mentioned their names are you and Krap? That's not even relevant to the discussion. I have no pipe dreams of obtaining either of them. I've made that quite clear. It would be nice if either of you could quit with the straw man argument.

[john2jer]

I guess I just can't see the Wolves having an interest in a 6'3" 180lb SG when we have a 6'0" PG. Yeah Rubio's coming in 1 or 2 years, most likely, but if John Wall and Rubio can't fit, how can Ellis and Rubio fit?

He had one really great efficient season, and since then he's been dropping. He's not a great outside shooter, and I'd expect him to get to the line more than he does. Wolves need help with outside shooting, and getting to the free throw line has been one of our greatest weaknesses. Not to mentioned perimeter defense and keeping guys out of the lane.

Again, Ellis ain't a bad player, just not what the Wolves should be looking for.

And seriously Krap, where does Kobe fit into this? That's basically just an insult there.

C'mon now, when have I not been insulting?

But how many SG's do all the things that you described? That's fools gold. Kobe is the only one that comes to mind. Joe Johnson maybe?

Normally I love your posts, and even when you're being a smart ass, it's hilarious. But your straw man argument here is (Please Use More Appropriate Word) and basically a waste of time. Hell, both of you clowns ignored when I mentioned a specific name of a SG who adds size, shooting, rebounding, MUCH cheaper, can be gotten in the draft, and is 5.5 years younger than Ellis.

[Krapinsky]

Store of jerks, it's not a straw man argument. You said the Wolves should be looking for a SG that was taller than Ellis, could post up, play better defense than Ellis, can hit the three pointer better than Ellis, and get to the line more than Ellis. How many SG's fit into that box? Kobe and Joe Johnson?

[Devilzsidewalk]

somewhere at home I have 200 baseball cards of Jose Canseco, including the rare '91 score dream team where Canseco is shirtless and barefooted on the sandy beach hitting dingers into the ocean. And he's got the Scott Baio "Charles In Charge" era haircut

[john2jer]

Store of jerks, it's not a straw man argument. You said the Wolves should be looking for a SG that was taller than Ellis, could post up, play better defense than Ellis, can hit the three pointer better than Ellis, and get to the line more than Ellis. How many SG's fit into that box? Kobe and Joe Johnson?

I take the 19 year old draft propsect that I mentioned earlier. Xavier Henry. Now now, before you start laughing, Ellis is a better player straight-up than Henry is, but, here's why I take Henry over Ellis.

-Henry is 5.5years younger.
-Henry is 3 inches taller and 30 pounds havier. Henry is built, and stronger.
-He's a hell of a lot better shooter.
-In college Henry got to the line about the same as Ellis did this year in the pros. Total difference in NCAA vs NBA, obviously, but typically FTAs go up in the pros.
-Curious how Henry's going to grade out length wise, but Monta Ellis has an average, at best, wingspan.
-And my favorite, is that Henry's on a rookie deal and can be drafted. He's not going to cost $11mil and sending out Jefferson to obtain him.

Oh, and I'm highly doubting we're going to ever hear reports about Xavier Henry not communicating with teammates, bashing draft picks, getting hurt on mopeds, lying about injuries, getting in trouble with coaches/management, or have to consider voiding his contract.