Vucevic to Phoenix, what would be a reasonable deal?

[JDLAW]

I think the only traditional low post centers in this league are Howard, Hibbert and to a lesser extent Marc Gasol.

Dude, no. What criteria are you using to say there's only 2 and 1/2 "traditional low post centers" in the NBA?

What do you think Traditional centers did that Brook Lopez/Bogut/Duncan etc. don't? Traditional centers always played high post as well as low post. Pick and roll, slash, or just set picks have always been centers jobs. Ewing did a lot more jump shooting as he aged as well. Was he not a traditional center because of it?

It is likely that I have been watching NBA basketball longer than you've been alive. I have personally seen the great centers of this game Russell, Chamberlain, Thurmond, Bellamy, Lanier, Gilmore, Reed, Malone, Olajuwon, Jabbar, ONeil, Unseld, Ewing, Walton. There are a few I might be missing, but these are low post back to the basket centers in the traditional mold of a center. They went through college learning their craft at being a center and their teams were built around them.

I am not nostalgic for the old days, the game has changed in many ways for the better, but there are very few true centers in the league that play the game like these these players did. I love Noah's game, but he is a mobile high-energy, talented player who plays the position like a forward. The only current franchise true-centers in today's NBA are Howard, Hibbert and 1/2 of Gasol and possibly Jordan who is not an offensive player but plays a true center position in terms of defense and rebounding.

Please do not bring the oft-injured Bogut or the jump shooting oft - injured Lopez, one dimensional guys like Sanders or guys like Pek or Vuc into the conversation about being franchise centers. They are position - holders.

[jowglenn]

Seems unlikely the Suns would realistically pursue any of those guys for varying reasons. Best bet would be to try to buy low on Larry Sanders if possible and hope he can bounce back with a culture change. He fits better with what the Suns would want out of a defensive C and is locked in on his contract.

Not that I think the Suns will prioritize the center position, I think they will more likely look upgrade their starting forwards and look for internal growth at C.

How did I forget Larry Sanders?!?!??! Of course! That would be a great target - Milwaukee has a new ownership group, and surely they'd be happy to start somewhat fresh - meaning goodbye Larry, Ersan, OJ. Getting a draft pick/etc for him would be great for them.

As for the forward spots, I somewhat agree, however I think those positions have guys who are able to contribute now; PJ Tucker, Markieff, Marcus, Frye. The center position? Plumlee is still developing and Len is just too far away to be a major contributor this year. Maybe they're willing to wait a bit, but they could use Len in a package to get a legit big man instead who is in his prime now. I think to some degree they just need to target a guy who can play both C & PF; Favors, or Gibson maybe.

But yeah the sky is the limit here. They've got space & 3 picks, plus future picks, so they can pretty much field all offers. Rather than focus too much on which position, they should just get whatever frontcourt player they feel is undervalued or misutilized; focus on getting a good deal and winning the deal, rather than blow it all on the "one perfect guy".

So if they find that Milwaukee is willing to just give Sanders away and wash their hands of that era (say, for the Indy pick & cap space alone) they should pull the trigger even if they don't know if he's a great fit.

If Sacramento wants to dump Landry or Thompson and is willing to move back a bit in the draft, jump on it! Landry, #7 for #14 & #17? That's a great move right there.


In fact, that's THE MOVE!


I hereby predict this will happen; Sacramento will trade #7 and pacakge it with either Landry or Thompson and/or Outlaw or whoever else they want to dump for some combination of those later PHO picks. Probably all 3 of them.


So that's the deal:

Phoenix trades: #14, #17, #26

Sacramento trades: #7, Landry or Thompson (maybe squeeze in outlaw or terry as a dump as well)

Why for Phoenix: consolidate all picks and use capspace to land high-end prospect @ #7 (could be Gordon, Vonleh, Smart, Randle could fall, heck McDermott could work well in PHX - I'll trust their scouting) and add an extra frontcourt veteran (either landry or thompson)

Why for Sacramento: Diversify their pick into multiple picks while dumping a big salary and thus breathing a little easier when re-signing Isaiah Thomas or whatever they decide to do. they can add 3 cheap rookie players to make depth around the group they have instead of only one.

[Narf]

Please do not bring the oft-injured Bogut or the jump shooting oft - injured Lopez, one dimensional guys like Sanders or guys like Pek or Vuc into the conversation about being franchise centers. They are position - holders.

NOW your saying "FRANCHISE TRADITIONAL LOW POST CENTERS"?

So you can't win an argument and you turn to attacking my knowledge and changing your argument?

Listen, sparky. I've watch the NBA for long enough. If you were watching Wilt you've got me. But I've watched long enough. McHale, Malone...these were traditional PFs. Sabonis, Parish, Ewing, Robinson, Dream, Mutombo, Mourning, Kareem Abdul-Jabaar....just because a player has a face up game and athleticism doesn't mean they aren't traditional centers. Traditional centers ALWAYS had a high post and often a mid-range game. They did not ONLY stand in the low post.

Don't tell me the NBA has moved away from the big centers to glorified mobile PFs in the middle. Then when I point out that all the good teams in the NBA save Miami have true centers and most of them are back to the basket, slow, plodding ones at that, that I don't know what I'm talking about. The good teams DO all have big, true, low post centers ... or LBJ. Any way you cut it those are not the mobile glorified PFs you were suggesting the NBA has "Moved to". 9 out of the top 10 teams have true centers in any era.

And most teams fans who don't have one want one.

[JDLAW]

Phoenix is not taking on Landry or Thompson's horrible contracts and Terry and give up 3 firsts for the #7. Especially when #7 is unlikely to make an impact for a couple of years. It is way too much.

Sanders is going onto the first year of his extension and under the CBA there is a poison pill provision. Although the Suns have the cap space to handle it, the question is why give up cap space for a one-dimensional, character challenged player. I do not think he is in the picture either.

I'll disagree with you about Len being too far away. With an offseason playing basketball in the weight room as well as summer league, I expect he will take s significant step up and will be a solid rotation player next year.

[Narf]

Phoenix is not taking on Landry or Thompson's horrible contracts and Terry and give up 3 firsts for the #7. Especially when #7 is unlikely to make an impact for a couple of years. It is way too much.

Sanders is going onto the first year of his extension and under the CBA there is a poison pill provision. Although the Suns have the cap space to handle it, the question is why give up cap space for a one-dimensional, character challenged player. I do not think he is in the picture either.

I'll disagree with you about Len being too far away. With an offseason playing basketball in the weight room as well as summer league, I expect he will take s significant step up and will be a solid rotation player next year.

I think the reason is it wouldn't cost any assets to get him.
Milwaukee might give you Sanders for a 2nd round pick, just to get him off the books. If you can find a better C in free agency you take that. If not, he might be worth the risk.

Rasheed was more of a headcase than Sanders is. But he always played hard on the court and played to win so Detroit took a chance on him. I don't know if the same is true about Sanders, but if it is he might be someone worth taking a chance on....as long as it costs you nothing more than cap space.

[JDLAW]

Please do not bring the oft-injured Bogut or the jump shooting oft - injured Lopez, one dimensional guys like Sanders or guys like Pek or Vuc into the conversation about being franchise centers. They are position - holders.

NOW your saying "FRANCHISE TRADITIONAL LOW POST CENTERS"?

So you can't win an argument and you turn to attacking my knowledge and changing your argument?

Listen, sparky. I've watch the NBA for long enough. If you were watching Wilt you've got me. But I've watched long enough. McHale, Malone...these were tradtional PFs. Sabonis, Parish, Ewing, Robinson, Dream, Mutombo, Mourning, Kareem Abdul-Jabaar....just because a player has a face up game and athleticism doesn't mean they aren't traditional centers. Traditional centers ALWAYS had a high post and often a mid-range game. They did not ONLY stand in the low post. But the fact is 9 out of 10 have "true centers" any way you cut it.

Don't tell me the NBA has moved away from the big centers to glorified mobile PFs in the middle. Then when I point out that all the good teams in the NBA save Miami have true centers and most of them are back to the basket, slow, plodding ones at that, that I don't know what I'm talking about. The good teams DO all have big, true, low post centers ... or LBJ. Any way you cut it those are not the mobile glorified PFs you were suggesting the NBA has "Moved to". 9 out of the top 10 teams have true centers in any era.

And most teams fans who don't have one want one.

You keep telling yourself that. Nevertheless the Suns have 2 centers and they are happy with them. They do not need or want Vucevic or any of the other journeymen centers out there and will not give up assets for him.

[JDLAW]

Phoenix is not taking on Landry or Thompson's horrible contracts and Terry and give up 3 firsts for the #7. Especially when #7 is unlikely to make an impact for a couple of years. It is way too much.

Sanders is going onto the first year of his extension and under the CBA there is a poison pill provision. Although the Suns have the cap space to handle it, the question is why give up cap space for a one-dimensional, character challenged player. I do not think he is in the picture either.

I'll disagree with you about Len being too far away. With an offseason playing basketball in the weight room as well as summer league, I expect he will take s significant step up and will be a solid rotation player next year.

I think the reason is it wouldn't cost any assets to get him.
Milwaukee might give you Sanders for a 2nd round pick, just to get him off the books. If you can find a better C in free agency you take that. If not, he might be worth the risk.

Rasheed was more of a headcase than Sanders is. But he always played hard on the court and played to win so Detroit took a chance on him. I don't know if the same is true about Sanders, but if it is he might be someone worth taking a chance on....as long as it costs you nothing more than cap space.

Rasheed was infinitely more talented than Sanders. Cap space for a player you do not want or need is an asset.

[Narf]

Please do not bring the oft-injured Bogut or the jump shooting oft - injured Lopez, one dimensional guys like Sanders or guys like Pek or Vuc into the conversation about being franchise centers. They are position - holders.

NOW your saying "FRANCHISE TRADITIONAL LOW POST CENTERS"?

So you can't win an argument and you turn to attacking my knowledge and changing your argument?

Listen, sparky. I've watch the NBA for long enough. If you were watching Wilt you've got me. But I've watched long enough. McHale, Malone...these were tradtional PFs. Sabonis, Parish, Ewing, Robinson, Dream, Mutombo, Mourning, Kareem Abdul-Jabaar....just because a player has a face up game and athleticism doesn't mean they aren't traditional centers. Traditional centers ALWAYS had a high post and often a mid-range game. They did not ONLY stand in the low post. But the fact is 9 out of 10 have "true centers" any way you cut it.

Don't tell me the NBA has moved away from the big centers to glorified mobile PFs in the middle. Then when I point out that all the good teams in the NBA save Miami have true centers and most of them are back to the basket, slow, plodding ones at that, that I don't know what I'm talking about. The good teams DO all have big, true, low post centers ... or LBJ. Any way you cut it those are not the mobile glorified PFs you were suggesting the NBA has "Moved to". 9 out of the top 10 teams have true centers in any era.

And most teams fans who don't have one want one.

You keep telling yourself that. Nevertheless the Suns have 2 centers and they are happy with them. They do not need or want Vucevic or any of the other journeymen centers out there and will not give up assets for him.

And you keep telling yourself that Bogut, Lopez, Duncan, Pekovic and Howard are mobile athletic guys not traditional centers.

[gaspar]

Seems unlikely the Suns would realistically pursue any of those guys for varying reasons. Best bet would be to try to buy low on Larry Sanders if possible and hope he can bounce back with a culture change. He fits better with what the Suns would want out of a defensive C and is locked in on his contract.

Not that I think the Suns will prioritize the center position, I think they will more likely look upgrade their starting forwards and look for internal growth at C.

Team chemistry was a big part of the Suns success this season. Waiving Beasley was as important as any move McDonough's done last summer. I can't see the Suns going after a massive head-case like Sanders, at all.

[JDLAW]

NOW your saying "FRANCHISE TRADITIONAL LOW POST CENTERS"?

So you can't win an argument and you turn to attacking my knowledge and changing your argument?

Listen, sparky. I've watch the NBA for long enough. If you were watching Wilt you've got me. But I've watched long enough. McHale, Malone...these were tradtional PFs. Sabonis, Parish, Ewing, Robinson, Dream, Mutombo, Mourning, Kareem Abdul-Jabaar....just because a player has a face up game and athleticism doesn't mean they aren't traditional centers. Traditional centers ALWAYS had a high post and often a mid-range game. They did not ONLY stand in the low post. But the fact is 9 out of 10 have "true centers" any way you cut it.

Don't tell me the NBA has moved away from the big centers to glorified mobile PFs in the middle. Then when I point out that all the good teams in the NBA save Miami have true centers and most of them are back to the basket, slow, plodding ones at that, that I don't know what I'm talking about. The good teams DO all have big, true, low post centers ... or LBJ. Any way you cut it those are not the mobile glorified PFs you were suggesting the NBA has "Moved to". 9 out of the top 10 teams have true centers in any era.

And most teams fans who don't have one want one.

You keep telling yourself that. Nevertheless the Suns have 2 centers and they are happy with them. They do not need or want Vucevic or any of the other journeymen centers out there and will not give up assets for him.

And you keep telling yourself that Bogut, Lopez, Duncan, Pekovic and Howard are mobile athletic guys not traditional centers.

YOu have no idea what is a traditional center. Maybe you should state your position to Kevin McHale who said the following:

I am not big on Celtics, but former Boston star power forward Kevin McHale had a real good insight on the dropping of the center from the all-star ballot. He now coaches Houston, which is the site of this year’s all-star game.
“We can't muster up enough centers in our league anymore to fill up the roster," McHale said. "I don't know if it's a position-less game, there are just very few centers. Let me tell you something: if Moses Malone was playing right now, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Robert Parish, you'd have centers. I don't know where they went. They've gone the way of the dinosaur, I think.

or

I needed confirmation, so I talked to, arguably, the most post-player of all time -- Kevin McHale.
Me: "So, Kevin, I wanted to get at you about post play in today's NBA."
McHale (chuckling): "Uh, you mean lack of post play?"

The center position in today's game has been so de-emphasized that it is not listed on the all-star ballot any longer.

[phx#7]

Seems unlikely the Suns would realistically pursue any of those guys for varying reasons. Best bet would be to try to buy low on Larry Sanders if possible and hope he can bounce back with a culture change. He fits better with what the Suns would want out of a defensive C and is locked in on his contract.

Not that I think the Suns will prioritize the center position, I think they will more likely look upgrade their starting forwards and look for internal growth at C.

Team chemistry was a big part of the Suns success this season. Waiving Beasley was as important as any move McDonough's done last summer. I can't see the Suns going after a massive head-case like Sanders, at all.

I'm not saying they would. As I said I don't think the Suns view a new C as a high priority, I was just pointing out that of the potentially available defensive centers Sanders would fit best. There may be question marks around him, but that's why he'd potentially be available for a modest price.