Indiana Pacers Cap Space

[Smitty731]

Updated 2/19 with removal of TPEs.

Current Cap Space: None. $11,733,942.00 over.
Maximum Cap Space: None. $11,733,942.00 over (if all options/guarantees were not picked up, all FAs renounced, no draft picks were to be signed this season, and all Exceptions were renounced)
Luxury Tax Space: $1,622,151.00
Tax Apron Space: $5,622,151.00
Hard Capped due to using Non-Taxpayer MLE on C.J. Miles and Damjan Rudez
2015-2016 Maximum Cap Space: $27,326,731.00

How I got there:

Guaranteed Contracts (15): Lavoy Allen, Chris Copeland, Paul George, Roy Hibbert, George Hill, Solomon Hill, Ian Mahinmi, C.J. Miles, Damjan Rudez, Luis Scola, Donald Sloan, Rodney Stuckey, C.J. Watson, David West, Shayne Whittington

Partial/Non-Guaranteed Contracts Kept to date (0): None

Carried Money (0): None

FA Cap Holds (1): Andrew Bynum

Draft Pick Holds (0): None

Current Exceptions: Non-Taxpayer Exception used on C.J. Miles and Damjan Rudez. No BAE because they used it last year. No TPEs.

[Narf]

I know they'd rather keep him, but if Stephenson is going to get paid a ton I would think trading him with Hibbert in a s+t (no need to combine their salary obviously) would net a pretty solid return.

[Texas Chuck]

I know they'd rather keep him, but if Stephenson is going to get paid a ton I would think trading him with Hibbert in a s+t (no need to combine their salary obviously) would net a pretty solid return.

I don't see that happening, but if so Dallas would and could take them both and be thrilled.

[Narf]

I know they'd rather keep him, but if Stephenson is going to get paid a ton I would think trading him with Hibbert in a s+t (no need to combine their salary obviously) would net a pretty solid return.

I don't see that happening, but if so Dallas would and could take them both and be thrilled.

lol

The point is they'd get a very good return for them both, and could get solid replacements and maybe a pick while cutting salary.

What were you proposing sending back?

[Laimbeer]

I know they'd rather keep him, but if Stephenson is going to get paid a ton I would think trading him with Hibbert in a s+t (no need to combine their salary obviously) would net a pretty solid return.

I don't see that happening, but if so Dallas would and could take them both and be thrilled.

Except for that assets thingy...

[Texas Chuck]

boys boys boys monta have it all including trade value

But seriously....

The premise of course is that if Hibbert hits the market there simply won't be high demand for him because why else is Indy putting him on the market. We sign Lance free and clear and only need trade value for Hibbert which we could muster. It might take a 3rd team, but I dont see it all that unrealistic for Dallas to work a trade for Roy.

[Narf]

I suppose I'll try and cut salary with a trade Indy fans wouldn't hate.

Pekovik, Turiaf, Brewer, Shabazz or #13
for
Hibbert, Mahinmi, Copeland, Stephenson

Salary breakdown
Hibbert- $14.9, 15.5 => Pek 12.1, 12.1, 12.1, 11.6
Mahinmi $4 mil => Turiaf $1.5 mil
Copeland $3.1 mil => #13 pick (1.7 mil) or Muhammad ($1.9 mil)
Stephenson ??? => $4.7 mil

Why for Indi:
2.8 + 2.5 + 1.4 + 5.3 mil or so for Stephenson = $12 mil in savings first year. Turiaf is an upgrade as backup, Pek's offense (20+ points per 36 on a .583 TS%) and rebounding has as much value as Hibbert's help defense on this team. Brewer is a downgrade but still a solid player for his contract. And the pick (I assume they want the pick) adds a quality, cheap young player for the next 4 years. Harris or Stauskas likely to replace Stephenson long term.

Why for Minnesota:
Stephenson is good, and will fit with these guys for the next decade. Martin now comes off the bench where he's far better suited. Hibbert's a good fit with Love, and the owner is a multi-billionaire willing to take a hit to keep Love and win in playoffs. Plus the Wolves have a ton of expiring contracts, so they will probably only spend 1 year in the lux.


Edit:
Hrm, this won't work money wise. So needs another piece...or to drop a piece. Maybe add a Minnesota expiring like LRMAM. So not quite as much savings but another roster spot filled.

I believe you can do a rookie extension sign-and-trade to make this work.

[winter_mute_13]

I think if the Pacers lose to the Hawks, you are seeing major changes coming. Hibbert gone maybe, Stephenson could walk, Turner let go, Scola waived, and starting over around George. A nice piece to start around, but at one point he was in the MVP discussion this year. By the end, he won’t finish top 5 and maybe not top 10. Really interesting team to watch this offseason.

If the Pacers do start over, I imagine we'd start the rebuild by keeping our youngest players and moving/replacing the older guys. That means keeping Paul George and Lance Stephenson (both 23!) for certain and building a team around them. Hibbert is the interesting one... I honestly don't know where I stand on him right now. He's still young enough to keep as a rebuild piece, plus big men are the hardest commodity to obtain. Objectively, I'd probably want to start a hypotheitical Indiana rebuild with a core of George, Stephenson, Hibbert, and Coach Frank Vogel. They may have disappointed this year (though they still have a chance to turn it around!) but as a long term bet, I still see it as a very nice core.

If we're talking minor tweaks around the edges kind of thing, I'd expect one of Scola or Copeland to be gone (Scola waived or Copeland traded for cap space, possibly with a minor asset attached), Turner to walk, Stephenson re-signed, and the rest of the roster filled with very cheap guys. Not very exciting stuff, I know.

[winter_mute_13]

I suppose I'll try and cut salary with a trade Indy fans wouldn't hate.

Pekovik, Turiaf, Brewer, Shabazz or #13
for
Hibbert, Mahinmi, Copeland, Stephenson

Ugh. No thank you.

[Narf]

I suppose I'll try and cut salary with a trade Indy fans wouldn't hate.

Pekovik, Turiaf, Brewer, Shabazz or #13
for
Hibbert, Mahinmi, Copeland, Stephenson

Ugh. No thank you.

You did get the "$12 million in savings" part right?

[winter_mute_13]

I suppose I'll try and cut salary with a trade Indy fans wouldn't hate.

Pekovik, Turiaf, Brewer, Shabazz or #13
for
Hibbert, Mahinmi, Copeland, Stephenson

Ugh. No thank you.

You did get the "$12 million in savings" part right?

Who do you propose we spend it on? And is that player going to be better than either Hibbert or Stephenson, let alone both?

[jowglenn]

I suppose I'll try and cut salary with a trade Indy fans wouldn't hate.

Pekovik, Turiaf, Brewer, Shabazz or #13
for
Hibbert, Mahinmi, Copeland, Stephenson

Ugh. No thank you.

You did get the "$12 million in savings" part right?

We could use those savings to sign some up-and-coming young shooting guard... someone like... lance stephenson

[Narf]

We could use those savings to sign some up-and-coming young shooting guard... someone like... lance stephenson

Do you understand the whole point of this is to avoid the lux for years?

You're not writing the $40 million check.
The whole point is you can't afford Stephenson. So you can either give away Hibbert for nothng to a team like Dallas (if they're willing to absorb it...which I think they are) or you can let Stephenson walk OR you can trade multiple big salaries to cut down.

Your owner is not just going to write that check for years. At least I don't think he is.

Do you know another way to stay under the Lux and be competitive?

[winter_mute_13]

OR you can trade multiple big salaries to cut down.

Not as many as you seem to think. Trading Copeland ($3m, expiring) or waiving Scola (partially guaranteed) should probably be enough, especially with the higher projected tax level. Along with letting Turner walk, of course.

[jowglenn]

We could use those savings to sign some up-and-coming young shooting guard... someone like... lance stephenson

Do you understand the whole point of this is to avoid the lux for years?

You're not writing the $40 million check.
The whole point is you can't afford Stephenson. So you can either give away Hibbert for nothng to a team like Dallas (if they're willing to absorb it...which I think they are) or you can let Stephenson walk OR you can trade multiple big salaries to cut down.

Your owner is not just going to write that check for years. At least I don't think he is.

Do you know another way to stay under the Lux and be competitive?

I'm just being obstinate. I'm a Pacers fan, so I'm basically in denial about the massive death spiral they've been in for the last few months and pretending like everything is OK so I don't have to face the harsh reality.

[Narf]

OR you can trade multiple big salaries to cut down.

Not as many as you seem to think. Trading Copeland ($3m, expiring) or waiving Scola (partially guaranteed) should probably be enough, especially with the higher projected tax level. Along with letting Turner walk, of course.

Hibbert, West, Hill, Mahinmi, George, Copeland, Watson, Hill = 8 roster spots for $60 mil. That's not including cap holds (empty roster spots have cap holds too).

Let's say Stephenson for $10 mil. Now you're at $70.

Fill in 5 more roster spots, 1 being your 2nd round pick.

If you see better options than me by all means. I'd love to see this one.

All I can see now is giving away Hibbert, letting Stephenson walk, or pulling a trade where you cut massive salary and try and get back solid parts.

[Narf]

I'm just being obstinate. I'm a Pacers fan, so I'm basically in denial about the massive death spiral they've been in for the last few months and pretending like everything is OK so I don't have to face the harsh reality.

I'm rather baffled by that too.
I thought you guys were going to beat Miami this year.

[winter_mute_13]

Hibbert, West, Hill, Mahinmi, George, Copeland, Watson, Hill = 8 roster spots for $60 mil. That's not including cap holds (empty roster spots have cap holds too).

Let's say Stephenson for $10 mil. Now you're at $70.

Fill in 5 more roster spots, 1 being your 2nd round pick.

+ Sloan (<$1m), and 4 other guys at ~$1m apiece. Total for 5 roster spots <$5m.

Total roster salary $75m, which is less than projected luxury tax of $77m. So in fact, we can go up to $12m for Lance and still stay under the tax. What am I missing?

I'm just being obstinate. I'm a Pacers fan, so I'm basically in denial about the massive death spiral they've been in for the last few months and pretending like everything is OK so I don't have to face the harsh reality.

Death spiral or not, you don't throw the baby away with the bath water. You still keep your valuable pieces, and move around the expendable ones to hopefully find a better mix.

[giberish]

Hibbert, West, Hill, Mahinmi, George, Copeland, Watson, Hill = 8 roster spots for $60 mil. That's not including cap holds (empty roster spots have cap holds too).

Let's say Stephenson for $10 mil. Now you're at $70.

Fill in 5 more roster spots, 1 being your 2nd round pick.

+ Sloan (<$1m), and 4 other guys at ~$1m apiece. Total for 5 roster spots <$5m.

Total roster salary $75m, which is less than projected luxury tax of $77m. So in fact, we can go up to $12m for Lance and still stay under the tax. What am I missing?

I think Indy would want to spend ~$3M or so on a reserve wing. Even with that you should be able to get someone Turner level or better (a low bar to clear).

Everybody else is really 3rd string, which is what min salaries are for. A rookie or two in the mix for $0.5M and you're looking at ~$6M or so for the extra guys, allowing $11M for Stevenson. At this point it's tough to see Stevenson getting more than that.

The upside for Indy of their 2nd half collapse is that it's gotten cheaper to keep their team together.

[Smitty731]

Updated OP on 6/2.