Houston / Boston / Denver

skywalker33 · Post #21 » by **skywalker33** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:07 pm

So. in most to these trades, Lawson goes out for a mid 1st plus other minor (crappy) pieces that aren't going to help Den, my question, what does Denver now do for a PG ??? Jameer Nelson isn't exactly a great starter and a possible FA on top of that. Why would the Nuggets weaken our PG position (while strengthening HOU or another team) for lesser return ?? It's not like we have a major shot at Mudiay or Russell and there doesn't look like any great PG's in the next couple of drafts, especially at the draft positions that are being offered (16th, 18th, 20th) so all these trades EXPECT Denver to become a bottom-feeder team, right ???

Austincys21 · Post #22 » by **Austincys21** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:17 pm

Houston gets Ty Lawson

Boston gets Clint Capela

Denver gets Kostas Pappink, Gerald Wallace, picks 16 and 18

Austincys21 · Post #23 » by **Austincys21** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:18 pm

Post #24 » by **HartfordWhalers** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:24 pm

skywalker33 wrote:So. in most to these trades, Lawson goes out for a mid 1st plus other minor (crappy) pieces that aren't going to help Den, my question, what does Denver now do for a PG ??? Jameer Nelson isn't exactly a great starter and a possible FA on top of that. Why would the Nuggets weaken our PG position (while strengthening HOU or another team) for lesser return ?? It's not like we have a major shot at Mudiay or Russell and there doesn't look like any great PG's in the next couple of drafts, especially at the draft positions that are being offered (16th, 18th, 20th) so all these trades EXPECT Denver to become a bottom-feeder team, right ???

Denver has more holes than they can fill in 1 draft imo, so the idea of needing to fill them all now is silly.

But more than that, the idea of a treadmill team is usually a team with a bunch of solid players but no (super)stars. So, a team that can win 30 - 40 or maybe even 50 wins, but will be an extremely unlikley team to advance past a certain point of the playoffs when teams without those stars just don't continue historically.

Tearing up Denver and going into next season with zero capable point guards might be better than getting a decent, good but not star one; as it should increase the chances of sucking enough to draft one.

However, I would also add that Tyus Jones is mocked right in that range (16,18,20) and would make sense if Denver did want a pg with the pick.

Finally, Troy Brown in the 2017 draft (2 years of yes sucking), looks very much like a great pg prospect (3rd in Rivals, 5th in Espn class rank etc).

So, basically the concern comes own to right now there is no immediate replacement that is a star (not so shocking) and the 2016 draft for now isn;t projected to have a top 5 pick as a pg, although it is early and Denver's needs exist elsewhere as well.

R-DAWG · Post #25 » by **R-DAWG** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:31 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
So are the 29th and 30th picks but I guarantee that wouldn't get Lawson either..... but so glad you can still count

What do you think Lawson's worth - the 6th pick and a future unprotected pick from the Kings?

Don't be so obtuse to think I'd fall into a trap like that. I've always stated I think Lawson's value is between 9th and 12th pick, he's the closet thing Denver has to a star and I don't see them trading him for mediocre draft picks. Would I do the 6th + a future pick...sure. But we both know that is highly improbable. Would I do the 6th alone, again...sure but not a probable proposal right now.. What I think the Nuggets FO is waiting for is an offer possibly in 10th range + a future protected pick.

So if the Pacers offered #11 straight up (with a TPE/Cap space/or expiring) for Lawson you would do the deal? i thought that had been rejected by Nug fans

Xman · Post #26 » by **Xman** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:36 pm

Also - keep in mind that DEN is clearing up $12 mil in space (Pappanik is not grty). So, add in that value of who could be signed. Maybe DEN insists that Hou add in Capela or TJones.

Plus, what is market value? He is good, but he is well paid.

Or, DEN can keep him - stumble to about 30 wins which will let them pick late in the lottery for years. Look at what Boston and Philly are doing - stockpiling by sucking and trades. It worked for Boston before - it should work again. But, if you cannot attract free agents then you better win some lotteries.

skywalker33 · Post #27 » by **skywalker33** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:58 pm

R-DAWG wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:
What do you think Lawson's worth - the 6th pick and a future unprotected pick from the Kings?

Don't be so obtuse to think I'd fall into a trap like that. I've always stated I think Lawson's value is between 9th and 12th pick, he's the closet thing Denver has to a star and I don't see them trading him for mediocre draft picks. Would I do the 6th + a future pick...sure. But we both know that is highly improbable. Would I do the 6th alone, again...sure but not a probable proposal right now.. What I think the Nuggets FO is waiting for is an offer possibly in 10th range + a future protected pick.

So if the Pacers offered #11 straight up (with a TPE/Cap space/or expiring) for Lawson you would do the deal? i thought that had been rejected by Nug fans

Why would IND offer that when they have Hill, whom they traded Kanwi Leonard for ??? And realiatically, it's not up to me or any fans, it's up to the GM's which most fans here will NEVER be...including you Dawg, I have seen some of your proposals. :lol:

Don't try to bait me, dawg, it makes you look petty....

skywalker33 · Post #28 » by **skywalker33** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:03 am

Xman wrote:Also - keep in mind that DEN is clearing up $12 mil in space (Pappanik is not grty). So, add in that value of who could be signed. Maybe DEN insists that Hou add in Capela or TJones.

Plus, what is market value? He is good, but he is well paid.

Or, DEN can keep him - stumble to about 30 wins which will let them pick late in the lottery for years. Look at what Boston and Philly are doing - stockpiling by sucking and trades. It worked for Boston before - it should work again. But, if you cannot attract free agents then you better win some lotteries.

Before Shaw got here, Den was a 57 win team...I guess that is NEVER going to be an option for anyone outside of DEN...how short sighted. Not saying it WILL happen, but to eliminate that as a possibility is an oversight.

Post #29 » by **HartfordWhalers** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:06 am

skywalker33 wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:

Don't be so obtuse to think I'd fall into a trap like that. I've always stated I think Lawson's value is between 9th and 12th pick, he's the closet thing Denver has to a star and I don't see them trading him for mediocre draft picks. Would I do the 6th + a future pick...sure. But we both know that is highly improbable. Would I do the 6th alone, again...sure but not a probable proposal right now.. What I think the Nuggets FO is waiting for is an offer possibly in 10th range + a future protected pick.

So if the Pacers offered #11 straight up (with a TPE/Cap space/or expiring) for Lawson you would do the deal? i thought that had been rejected by Nug fans

Why would IND offer that when they have Hill, whom they traded Kanwi Leonard for ??? And realiatically, it's not up to me or any fans, it's up to the GM's which most fans here will NEVER be...including you Dawg, I have seen some of your proposals.

Don't try to bait me, dawg, it makes you look petty....

Didn't look like baiting or petty to me. It is a simple question, would you accept 11 and a TPE for Lawson?

skywalker33 · Post #30 » by **skywalker33** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:45 am

Been down that road before with a few posters, just to create an argument....try to avoid those scenarios.....but as a fan, I would consider it, but I doubt the Nuggets FO would without knowing who'd be there.

Post #31 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:10 am

R-DAWG wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:
What do you think Lawson's worth - the 6th pick and a future unprotected pick from the Kings?

Don't be so obtuse to think I'd fall into a trap like that. I've always stated I think Lawson's value is between 9th and 12th pick, he's the closet thing Denver has to a star and I don't see them trading him for mediocre draft picks. Would I do the 6th + a future pick...sure. But we both know that is highly improbable. Would I do the 6th alone, again...sure but not a probable proposal right now.. What I think the Nuggets FO is waiting for is an offer possibly in 10th range + a future protected pick.

So if the Pacers offered #11 straight up (with a TPE/Cap space/or expiring) for Lawson you would do the deal? i thought that had been rejected by Nug fans

Generally Denver fans on this board wanted essentially that, and Indy fans turned it down in a hot second.

So, that's not a realistic offer, as Indy wouldn't offer it, let alone we don't have a TPE or expiring to do it. We'd have to trade a valuable expiring: West or the like.

Post #32 » by **HartfordWhalers** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:13 am

skywalker33 wrote:Been down that road before with a few posters, just to create an argument....try to avoid those scenarios.....but as a fan, I would consider it, but I doubt the Nuggets FO would without knowing who'd be there.

Appreciate the response, I really want to trade Lawson in some hypothetical scenarios and I think that is fair value, so it feels not hopeless to try.

skywalker33 · Post #33 » by **skywalker33** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:38 am

Realistically, I think Lawson's days in Denver are numbered, but I don't see 90% of these trades even being considered by Denver's GM. He seems to have the patience and fortitude to hold his ground on trades, if he's not getting strong value , he's not gonna do the deal. He told CLE he wanted two #1's for Mozgov, held out until he got them. He wanted a 1st for AA, everyone here said he would't go for more than a 2nd and we got a nice package including a 1st just before the trade deadline.

That being said, I'm not sure Lawson's poor behavior during the All-Star break impressed any loyalty towards the coach (obviously not) or towards the FO. A lot will depend on our next head coach as to if he stays or if he goes. By extension, the new direction the HC and FO agree will direct a fire sale ( I know some of you are praying for that ) or a retool.

LarsV8 · Post #34 » by **LarsV8** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:23 am

I'd say his days are numbered as well.

NSFW - Language

Spoiler:

skywalker33 · Post #35 » by **skywalker33** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:47 am

Give us value and it's a deal....haven't seen that from 90% of theses trade, even yours LarsV8 don't cut it....

able_archer · Post #36 » by **able_archer** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:31 am

jowglenn wrote:If Boston sees something in Capela that they don't see in anyone at 16, then sure, why not? But on a realistic level, his value is somewhere in the 16-30 range. The problem is, executives see values differently. Maybe they think Capela is an underplayed gem who will break out under Stevens. If they wait a season, the secret will be out and he won't be as easy to get. So sure, 16 for Capela. It seems unlikely though. If guys like Capela are generally available in the 20s (and, they are) then won't there be a Capela type in this draft somewhere?

Better bet is that Boston gives up multiple lesser assets.

The whole "two firsts for Lawson" thing sounds nice, but... Denver must be realistic. The point guard scene is booming, and Lawson has some natural deficiencies (his height is an issue on defense) and some off-court antics. His shooting percentages have been on a downward path year on year.

Two firsts is a tough get.

But... if you count the Clippers 1st as a 1st (it is a 1st, in the tautological sense), then this can happen.

Boston gives Datome, the LAC 1st (28) and the PHI 2nd (33?) for Capela.

Houston gives Capela, the NOP 1st (18) and the NYK 2nd (31?) and Papanik for Lawson

Denver gives Lawson for Datome/Papnik/18/28/31/33. It's still technically two 1sts and two really good 2nds. Denver would have five picks in the top 33 to restock this team with youth (not to mention the multiple 1sts & swap options they are owed) and have a clear path to the rebuild.

4 picks and cap space sounds pretty good right now. Unfortunately, your offer includes Datome, who can't be traded anymore (unless its a sign and trade, which can't happen until after the draft), and another season of a Papanik, who's terrible, at $5 million sounds horrible. We've already got that size albatross in JJ Hickson.

Who has a trade exception that we could get involved here? Denver would toss someone the late 1st to make this happen and lose Hickson in the process...

Post #37 » by **165bows** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:33 am

LarsV8 wrote:I'd say his days are numbered as well.

NSFW - Language

Spoiler:

Both parsons lol.

jowglenn · Post #38 » by **jowglenn** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:00 pm

able_archer wrote:
4 picks and cap space sounds pretty good right now. Unfortunately, your offer includes Datome, who can't be traded anymore (unless its a sign and trade, which can't happen until after the draft), and another season of a Papanik, who's terrible, at $5 million sounds horrible. We've already got that size albatross in JJ Hickson.

Who has a trade exception that we could get involved here? Denver would toss someone the late 1st to make this happen and lose Hickson in the process...

I didn't realize that bout Datome. I was just adjusting the original deal. Should be ok without him though... HOU needs to have the cap space to absorb the difference between lawson and papanikolau either way, right?

That year of Papanikolau is a team option though - can they trade him before the option needs to be exercised, and then DEN gets him and turns down the team option?

Post #39 » by **HartfordWhalers** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:04 pm

able_archer wrote:
jowglenn wrote:If Boston sees something in Capela that they don't see in anyone at 16, then sure, why not? But on a realistic level, his value is somewhere in the 16-30 range. The problem is, executives see values differently. Maybe they think Capela is an underplayed gem who will break out under Stevens. If they wait a season, the secret will be out and he won't be as easy to get. So sure, 16 for Capela. It seems unlikely though. If guys like Capela are generally available in the 20s (and, they are) then won't there be a Capela type in this draft somewhere?

Better bet is that Boston gives up multiple lesser assets.

The whole "two firsts for Lawson" thing sounds nice, but... Denver must be realistic. The point guard scene is booming, and Lawson has some natural deficiencies (his height is an issue on defense) and some off-court antics. His shooting percentages have been on a downward path year on year.

Two firsts is a tough get.

But... if you count the Clippers 1st as a 1st (it is a 1st, in the tautological sense), then this can happen.

Boston gives Datome, the LAC 1st (28) and the PHI 2nd (33?) for Capela.

Houston gives Capela, the NOP 1st (18) and the NYK 2nd (31?) and Papanik for Lawson

Denver gives Lawson for Datome/Papnik/18/28/31/33. It's still technically two 1sts and two really good 2nds. Denver would have five picks in the top 33 to restock this team with youth (not to mention the multiple 1sts & swap options they are owed) and have a clear path to the rebuild.

4 picks and cap space sounds pretty good right now. Unfortunately, your offer includes Datome, who can't be traded anymore (unless its a sign and trade, which can't happen until after the draft), and another season of a Papanik, who's terrible, at $5 million sounds horrible. We've already got that size albatross in JJ Hickson.

Who has a trade exception that we could get involved here? Denver would toss someone the late 1st to make this happen and lose Hickson in the process...

Papanikolaou is unguaranteed, so if desired he could be cut and cap space opened. And Boston has plenty of TPE's to take Capela for cap space without including Datome.

But mostly, I have to imagine Philly would take on Hickson to get a late first.

R-DAWG · Post #40 » by **R-DAWG** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:22 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:

Don't be so obtuse to think I'd fall into a trap like that. I've always stated I think Lawson's value is between 9th and 12th pick, he's the closet thing Denver has to a star and I don't see them trading him for mediocre draft picks. Would I do the 6th + a future pick...sure. But we both know that is highly improbable. Would I do the 6th alone, again...sure but not a probable proposal right now.. What I think the Nuggets FO is waiting for is an offer possibly in 10th range + a future protected pick.

So if the Pacers offered #11 straight up (with a TPE/Cap space/or expiring) for Lawson you would do the deal? i thought that had been rejected by Nug fans

Generally Denver fans on this board wanted essentially that, and Indy fans turned it down in a hot second.

So, that's not a realistic offer, as Indy wouldn't offer it, let alone we don't have a TPE or expiring to do it. We'd have to trade a valuable expiring: West or the like.

Indiana has bird rights with Scola, Watson and Copelad which could be used to create an expiring contract (1 year deal with 2 team options) for the purpose of the trade.