Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers?

[Clyde Frazier]

I'm sure this has been discussed on this board before, but the below article got me thinking about it again:

http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/10/16/philadelphia-76ers-sam-hinkie-joel-embiid-brett-brown-process

I tend to agree that the article borders on "negative diatribe", but posting it anyway as a jumping off point for discussion.

What are your thoughts on hinkie's rebuild plan? I'll come back later with more to say, but I tend to call it an "extreme tanking rebuild", which I don't entirely agree with. My main feeling is that he's made moves that have hindered actual team building and development, and now we're going into year 3 without much of a team in place.

Basically, I have no problem with building through the draft and acquiring assets, but it's the "extreme" or "rigid" nature of which hinkie's doing it that I question. Thoughts? Please vote in the poll as well.

[CoreyGallagher]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MaxRappaport/status/655063087763034112[/tweet]

Roster and picks owed 2 years ago, figure I'd context it at least.

Also, is there actual curiosity? Given the countless threads we've had about the Sixers I feel like it's obvious that most will disagree with the plan and I just don't understand the purpose of this thread, tbh. Do we need an anonymous headcount?

[Dr Positivity]

I think he's done a good job, but when the Sixers start winning I suspect it will have less to do with tanking, and more to do with build a team of defenders and 3pt shooters and saving his capspace until the time is right, which he could've done without tanking

[Winglish]

I disagree because I am a season ticket holder and I think losing on purpose is unfair to ticket buyers. You don't want to give up your good seats because you'll never get them back, so the poor Sixers fans are stuck spending thousands to watch losses. I think tanking is boorish behavior by management and ownership.

[loserX]

Just stepping in to say I've seen this subject blow up a few times on the GB, and it runs the risk of getting really negative, so will ask everyone in advance to remain respectful...don't make it personal, don't take it personal. Thank you!

[AussieBuck]

I think perceptions of what they are doing should change when they bring in 2016 pick, 2016 Lakers pick, Saric and whatever else. Right now people just see a team with a bunch of guys they haven't heard of before.

[Laimbeer]

Can't really blame him since it's within the rules and it probably has a chance to build a contender. But there's something fundamentally wrong when a franchise feels it can benefit from purposely and repetitively putting non-competitive teams on the floor. That isn't fair to fans and goes to the credibility of the league.

[bondom34]

I'll start by seconding LoserX on this. And we'll keep an eye out so please be civil, this isn't the GB and we're not going to let that much go here. As for my answer, I'm fine with it. Corey posted the old roster and owed picks. Hinkie started with a roster entirely incapable of doing anything better than maybe an 8 seed in a bad east, if he had some breaks go his way. Most of his major moves I've liked with the exception of a few, but a bare bones outline:

1. Holiday for Noel/pick: Great value deal, Holiday's a pretty middle of the pack PG and Noel has always looked to have amazing defensive potential and likely is at worst the 3rd best player from that draft IMO.

2. Drafted MCW and traded a second for Wroten: MCW ended up pumping his value and Wroten's been a decent enough PG on a bad team, no issues here

3. Took Embiid and the Payton for Saric trade: Embiid was definitely BPA. As for the trade...eh, this one to me is iffy, the fit is questionable but they were pretty even as prospects. I don't hold it either way til I see Saric.

4. Thad Young for a first: Yep, made perfect sense.

5. MCW trade: Turn a guy who doesn't seem to be even a very passable starter into a top 10 pick? Good deal.

6. Kings trade this summer: Yeah that was just great for them too.

7. Last draft took BPA even though fit wasn't great, ended up working out with the Embiid situation.

My one criticism (and I stand by it) is that he should really have done more this past offseason to get a few more actual NBA level players on the roster, especially the guards. Stauskas looks bad but you never know. They still don't have a real starting PG unless Marshall magically transforms at a later age than expected. He really should try to start building a roster, not a treasure chest. But he's got a heck of a treasure chest.

Outside that he's done some questionable stuff, the Holiday injury reporting, treating guys as assets, seemingly annoying every other FO he comes in contact with (except maybe Morey). So he's done some things character wise that seem questionable but most of the stuff basketball wise made sense. And enough Sixers fans are happy with it that who am I to criticize that much. That's kinda how I feel about most FOs, if the fans are seeing a plan, cool. Its how I see it for OKC, Philly, the Knicks now, Boston, Utah, everyone.

Edit: So I voted yes but on looking at it maybe I'm in the middle? I mean depending on how long this goes for, I'm at the point this is the last year I see it as OK.

[Smitty731]

Just stepping in to say I've seen this subject blow up a few times on the GB, and it runs the risk of getting really negative, so will ask everyone in advance to remain respectful...don't make it personal, don't take it personal. Thank you!

Beat me to it! I was about to write the same thing.

As for me, I voted that I'm in the middle. A year or two, I am fine with. If it stretches past that, I have to wonder. Bill Simmons was probably on to something when he said Hinkie can keep rolling it over to an extent and say "Well, you haven't seen the end product yet!"

I like the idea of a complete tear down and basically starting from scratch. When you hit the point of year three and you still aren't moving forward, questions are fair and should be expected. At some point, putting a viable NBA team on the floor has to happen. I firmly believe there is a difference between trying to lose and not trying to win. I don't think the 76ers have been trying to lose. But they also haven't been trying to win.

So, I guess that means I'm in the middle. I don't mind the idea, but it starting to push the boundaries of going too far.

[Crabman]

With the way he's tanking, if Hinkie doesn't build a championship contender, then he failed big time.

[Clyde Frazier]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MaxRappaport/status/655063087763034112[/tweet]

Roster and picks owed 2 years ago, figure I'd context it at least.

Also, is there actual curiosity? Given the countless threads we've had about the Sixers I feel like it's obvious that most will disagree with the plan and I just don't understand the purpose of this thread, tbh. Do we need an anonymous headcount?

Hmm... I thought I prefaced it pretty clearly. I'm interested in whatever discussion comes out it as I haven't followed this specific board for very long.

[bondom34]

Oh, and this definitely came from another thread and Clyde isn't messing around. He was genuinely asking and asked elsewhere too. Just looking for more opinions .

[Kings2013]

I don't know enough about their revenues but I know their gate and television ratings are in the tubes. I have a problem with teams leaching off revenue sharing to do it

[CoreyGallagher]

Hmm... I thought I prefaced it pretty clearly. I'm interested in whatever discussion comes out it as I haven't followed this specific board for very long.

Usually those articles become the discussion and I was curious what differentiated this thread from the others that have already cited that article, this thread seems to be about the entirety of the rebuild which ultimately answered my original question.

[shoefly1]

I'm more of a fan of basketball than specific teams, and as such I just enjoy watching meaningful games with meaningful players. I think there's value in having a good/fun to watch team moreso than simply, you win the title or you're a loser. As such I find it offensive to intentionally put a team out there that is completely without NBA quality players as they've done last couple years.

These years count too, and while this plan might pay off eventually, as Keynes said, "In the long run we'll all be dead."

[Mr. E]

I just enjoyed the best Astros season in 10 years.

That was pretty much the result of what Hinkie is doing. Probably even more extreme, to be honest.

I don't like the idea of tanking, but looking at this young Astros team that is at least two years ahead of where they should be I really can't argue against it.

[pacers33granger]

I agree with his plan 100%. He's building the team from scratch and it's only been two years. I think the team gets a ton more flak than it deserves for tanking. They haven't even had the worst record in the league either season. I strongly prefer this situation to trying to retool without any real keepers on the team (which they didn't have in 03). Oftentimes when teams do that they eventually luck into a top pick to add to their marginal roster and end up going nowhere, which is exactly what happened to them with Turner.

As for them not signing more vets, I don't mind it. Why sign vets to longterm contracts (many wouldn't accept one year deals from Philly right now) when you're not sure what you're going to need in a year or two. And for them it's better to give their young guys all the minutes they can handle. If they had vets they guys like Covington may not have gotten a full shot and confidence.

[HartfordWhalers]

2. traded a second for Wroten

3. Payton for Saric trade: Embiid was definitely BPA. As for the trade...eh, this one to me is iffy, the fit is questionable but they were pretty even as prospects. I don't hold it either way til I see Saric.


...treating guys as assets...

Couple of corrections/additions to highlight.

-- Wroten was taken for free (top 55 or top 50 2nd; they traded that second a bunch that year, but it was a non-existent pick).

-- The haul from moving down was:
Payton for
Saric
Orlando 2015 2nd
2017 Philly 1st (top 11 that year, top 8 the next year, if not 2 2nds).

Considering Philly was planning on taking Saric at 10 (Woj even reported the pick done), I think you absolutelyhave to call teh trade a massive win. Maybe the draft picks used is not, but the value from 10 to 12 was.

-- By all reports, Philly doesn't treat players like assets, and even the journeymen that get their say the team invests more in their development than anywhere previous. They have more player turnover than most -- although a good portion of it is lower end bench churn -- but that is different from treating players as assets. Instead, the team seems highly invested in players as people (that are tradable).

[HartfordWhalers]

Oh, for insight on the article in general, the author has been a massive critic of teh Sixers since at least the MCW trade (I believe before it, but that made him a lot more vocal.

There are some decent corrections here -- http://www.libertyballers.com/2015/10/16/9550017/sixers-joel-embiid-michael-carter-williams-sam-hinkie-the-cauldron

And derek bodner has a great set of takes on it -- https://mobile.twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/with_replies

Also, Brett Brown weighed in, and he hasn't minced words yet as a coach (including saying Embiid had issues when he did, but that they corrected them back then --
[tweet]https://twitter.com/matt_breen/status/655133784849973248[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/655130530619478017[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/655131972126310400[/tweet]

[spearsy23]

I hate it. That doesn't mean it won't work, in fact I think it likely will. I also think its success is going to greatly depend on rather or not veteran players decide Philly is a worthwhile free agent destination. Hinkie can't draft a full contending roster in 5 years, that's an unreasonable expectation. As of today they have 3 sure fire rotation players and this is year 3, none of them project as more than borderline all-star. He really needs Saric to hit, Embiid to come back and be as projected, and to hit on both the Lakers pick and his own. what happens if he DOES hit those picks and Philly is still just good? After this level of tanking he can't build a Toronto level team and call it a success.