KOTB Failed Entry #4 IND/DAL

Post #1 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 5:47 pm

Vote yes or No please with reasoning.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=h4qgn6f

Monta Eliis
Rodney Stuckey
2017 IND 1st(lotto protected for 3 years then 2 2nds)

for

Wes Matthews
Devin Harris

In reading the Indy reviews everyone agreed Ellis and Stuckey were the wrong guys at SG. And that a 3&D would be needed. But what team would give one of those guys for Monta? Why not Dallas again? With Barnes in for Parsons, the Mavs need another guy who can create some offense and they should still have enough shooting left on the roster. They also agree to even out the money for the Pacers by swapping Devin and Stuckey helping solidify the Pacers bench. In exchange the Mavs also pick up a late 1st from the Pacers as they need to start getting younger in preparation for Dirk's impending retirement.

Caveat: I am Mavs fan, but I think the values here are fair?

Post #2 » by **jbk1234** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 6:29 pm

I think that the 1st might be a bit of an overpay given Matthews' injury history and contract. But not so much of an overpay that the Pacers would decline outright. The fit is a lot better and they've got to take some chances to improve that roster. I'll give this one a yes.

winter_mute_13 · Post #3 » by **winter_mute_13** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 6:55 pm

Would love to swap Monta for Wes. Attaching a first seems kind of steep though, but lotto protection makes it more palatable. Maybe the protection can be adjusted further? Seems close enough that I'd give a KOTB yes.

Post #4 » by **HartfordWhalers** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 7:43 pm

This is interesting. My first thought was Dallas balks at it but considers it strongly, but maybe I'm wrong on that. I think it should be a yes from Indy, and don't worry that end at all.

If a couple more people feel like it is fine for Dallas I'm in (even if they dislike it for Indy). Dirk's likely last year just makes me really nervous to see Dallas downgrade, even if it makes sense with fits and includes a protected 1st that could be #15.

Someone sell me on Dallas doing this? Thanks!

Post #5 » by **Slava** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 8:22 pm

I can't buy this for Dallas. They go very small in the backcourt with Ellis/Williams and Barea. Given the players on the move here, gambling on Matthews' health next season is the best move for either team so it would be a yes from Indiana's perspective but hard to think Dallas would do it.

KOTB: No

damecurry · Post #6 » by **damecurry** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 9:17 pm

Chuck, why are you calling all your KOTBs "failed entry" even the ones that are getting yes votes? I find it very confusing.

damecurry · Post #7 » by **damecurry** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 9:20 pm

Also, on this trade I agree with HW and Slava, it seems like a mistake for Dallas to me. Unless his injuries are really scaring you I think Wes is just a way better player and more valuable than monta, I'd probably rather have Harris than Stuckey and I don't think one 1st which will likely be in the low 20s is worth the downgrades especially to a team I perceive as still trying to stay relevant until Dirk finally retires.
KOTB: No but close.

Post #8 » by **HartfordWhalers** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 9:27 pm

damecurry wrote:Chuck, why are you calling all your KOTBs "failed entry" even the ones that are getting yes votes? I find it very confusing.

Me too. I thought it was just me.

jayjaysee · Post #9 » by **jayjaysee** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 10:10 pm

You have no faith in Curry.. Maybe I've spent too much time lying to myself about him.

I'm not going to vote, because I'm bias. But I'd like it more if we could turn Stuckey into Hawes or some other meh big. Again - keeping Bogut healthy while benching Salala is the key.

I like it for Indy, I can't imagine Wes not bouncing back.. IMO if he was perm-damaged goods, he'd have missed more games last season.. He should be back to himself this season. Which is why I'm not voting, I've spent months telling myself these lies to believe in the 8th seed.

Post #10 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 10:41 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
damecurry wrote:Chuck, why are you calling all your KOTBs "failed entry" even the ones that are getting yes votes? I find it very confusing.

Me too. I thought it was just me.

It's predictive.

Post #11 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Sep 5, 2016 10:45 pm

jayjaysee wrote:You have no faith in Curry.. Maybe I've spent too much time lying to myself about him.

No I do have faith in Curry. In this scenario he plays and Stuckey gets the Felton 2014-15 role of be ready guy. I just don't have confidence in Curry to create as much as I have confidence in him knocking down open shots. I really think Dallas will be a hard-scoring team because Dirk doesn't require a double and Barnes can't come close to replacing that part of Parsons' game. We are going to have to win games with defense and out-executing teams in the 4th quarter.

And feel free to vote No for Dallas officially. I agree Dallas is more likely to turn this deal down than Indy(assuming Matthews checks out physically for their doctors).

basketballwacko2 · Post #12 » by **basketballwacko2** » Tue Sep 6, 2016 12:35 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Vote yes or No please with reasoning.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=h4qgn6f

Monta Eliis
Rodney Stuckey
2017 IND 1st(lotto protected for 3 years then 2 2nds)

for

Wes Matthews
Devin Harris

In reading the Indy reviews everyone agreed Ellis and Stuckey were the wrong guys at SG. And that a 3&D would be needed. But what team would give one of those guys for Monta? Why not Dallas again? With Barnes in for Parsons, the Mavs need another guy who can create some offense and they should still have enough shooting left on the roster. They also agree to even out the money for the Pacers by swapping Devin and Stuckey helping solidify the Pacers bench. In exchange the Mavs also pick up a late 1st from the Pacers as they need to start getting younger in preparation for Dirk's impending retirement.

Caveat: I am Mavs fan, but I think the values here are fair?

Would Dallas want Ellis back? Stuckey is a good player who gets a bad rap he was hurt a lot last season as was Monta. From the Pacers perspective only the #1 pick is an issue but with the lotto protection (the Pacers are not gonna be near the lottery unless PG goes down with another broken leg) I'd do the deal pending a work out of Wes. He seemed to not be the same player he was before the injury. I'll give you a yest on this one.

Darren · Post #13 » by **Darren** » Tue Sep 6, 2016 8:38 am

I actually say yes to this. However, we don't need Stuckey at all. Make it a 3 ways then:
Dallas receives: Monta Ellis, Tyson Chandler, 1st from Indy (lottery protected)
Indiana receives: Wes Matthews
Pheonix receives: Ronny Stuckey, Devin Harris

It works perfectly for the Mavs. I think both Ellis and Chandler play much better in Dallas. It's nice to slide Harrison Barnes to 3rd/4th option temporarily with Ellis on the floor.

C - Andrew Bogut / Tyson Chandler / Salah Mejri
PF - Dirk Nowitzki / Dwight Powell / Quincy Acy
SF - Harrison Barnes / Justin Anderson
SG - Monta Ellis / Seth Curry / Jonathan Gibson
PG - Deron Williams / Jose Barea

Wizop · Post #14 » by **Wizop** » Tue Sep 6, 2016 2:34 pm

the first kills it for me. make it a right for Dallas to swap firsts and I'd think about it.

Darren · Post #15 » by **Darren** » Tue Sep 6, 2016 6:38 pm

Wizop wrote:the first kills it for me. make it a right for Dallas to swap firsts and I'd think about it.

Do you really think Dallas rank higher than Indiana in playoff standing at all? If not, then you're offering nothing at all.

Post #16 » by **Texas Chuck** » Tue Sep 6, 2016 6:48 pm

Wizop wrote:the first kills it for me. make it a right for Dallas to swap firsts and I'd think about it.

yeah value was hard to dial in. I definitely felt like Dallas should get something extra out of the swap just because Matthews' game seems to translate better to today's game than Monta's and Harris and Stuckey are probably fairly similar on-court value but Devin is cheaper.

I considered the swap, but like Darren points out, I think we all expect Indy to win more games than Dallas so that won't work. Maybe increasing the protections would have been better? Something like top 20, top 18, lotto, 2 2nds?

Or maybe the price Dallas would want is more than Indy would be willing to pay and thus its just a bad deal all around?

Wizop · Post #17 » by **Wizop** » Tue Sep 6, 2016 8:05 pm

I think the real problem is that Pacer fans want to move Ellis or Stuckey but there has been no sign that Bird wants to do either. maybe these deals will come back up near the deadline if things are going poorly.

Post #18 » by **Andre Roberstan** » Tue Sep 6, 2016 9:05 pm

Weirdly enough, this feels bad for Dallas to me, especially considering the direction they've been going the last couple of years. I don't know that Cubes is willing to take that downgrade for the pick. KOTB no for me.

The Sparest · Post #19 » by **The Sparest** » Wed Sep 7, 2016 1:32 am

Wizop wrote:the first kills it for me. make it a right for Dallas to swap firsts and I'd think about it.

I was just about to suggest that. The first seems to tilt the value too far in the Mavs favor. Substituting a swap would even it out IMO. I worry about our defense losing Wes, but Monta's playmaking and scoring ability might be even more valuable to us this season.

I give it a tentative yes. I wouldn't mind if the Mavs made this move, and I wouldn't mind if they passed on it either.

Post #20 » by **HartfordWhalers** » Wed Sep 7, 2016 2:22 pm

jbk1234 wrote:I think that the 1st might be a bit of an overpay given Matthews' injury history and contract. But not so much of an overpay that the Pacers would decline outright. The fit is a lot better and they've got to take some chances to improve that roster. I'll give this one a yes.

1 yes.

winter_mute_13 wrote:Would love to swap Monta for Wes. Attaching a first seems kind of steep though, but lotto protection makes it more palatable. Maybe the protection can be adjusted further? Seems close enough that I'd give a KOTB yes.

2 yes.

HartfordWhalers wrote:This is interesting. My first thought was Dallas balks at it but considers it strongly, but maybe I'm wrong on that. I think it should be a yes from Indy, and don't worry that end at all.

If a couple more people feel like it is fine for Dallas I'm in (even if they dislike it for Indy). Dirk's likely last year just makes me really nervous to see Dallas downgrade, even if it makes sense with fits and includes a protected 1st that could be #15.

Someone sell me on Dallas doing this? Thanks!

Not a vote.Still 2 yes, 0 no.

Slava wrote:I can't buy this for Dallas. They go very small in the backcourt with Ellis/Williams and Barea. Given the players on the move here, gambling on Matthews' health next season is the best move for either team so it would be a yes from Indiana's perspective but hard to think Dallas would do it.

KOTB: No

2 yes, 1 no.

damecurry wrote:Also, on this trade I agree with HW and Slava, it seems like a mistake for Dallas to me. Unless his injuries are really scaring you I think Wes is just a way better player and more valuable than monta, I'd probably rather have Harris than Stuckey and I don't think one 1st which will likely be in the low 20s is worth the downgrades especially to a team I perceive as still trying to stay relevant until Dirk finally retires.
KOTB: No but close.

2 yes, 2 no.

jayjaysee wrote:You have no faith in Curry.. Maybe I've spent too much time lying to myself about him.

I'm not going to vote, because I'm bias. But I'd like it more if we could turn Stuckey into Hawes or some other meh big. Again - keeping Bogut healthy while benching Salala is the key.

I like it for Indy, I can't imagine Wes not bouncing back.. IMO if he was perm-damaged goods, he'd have missed more games last season.. He should be back to himself this season. Which is why I'm not voting, I've spent months telling myself these lies to believe in the 8th seed.

Not a vote, Still 2 yes, 2 no.

basketballwacko2 wrote:Would Dallas want Ellis back? Stuckey is a good player who gets a bad rap he was hurt a lot last season as was Monta. From the Pacers perspective only the #1 pick is an issue but with the lotto protection (the Pacers are not gonna be near the lottery unless PG goes down with another broken leg) I'd do the deal pending a work out of Wes. He seemed to not be the same player he was before the injury. I'll give you a yest on this one.

Is this a yes for both sides, or just Indy?

Assuming it is for both sides:
3 yes, 2 no.

Darren wrote:I actually say yes to this. However, we don't need Stuckey at all. Make it a 3 ways then...

Is this a yes for both side?

Assuming it is for both sides:
4 yes, 2 no

Wizop wrote:the first kills it for me. make it a right for Dallas to swap firsts and I'd think about it.

4 yes, 3 no.

dbrandon wrote:Weirdly enough, this feels bad for Dallas to me, especially considering the direction they've been going the last couple of years. I don't know that Cubes is willing to take that downgrade for the pick. KOTB no for me.

4 yes, 4 no.

The Sparest wrote:
Wizop wrote:the first kills it for me. make it a right for Dallas to swap firsts and I'd think about it.

I was just about to suggest that. The first seems to tilt the value too far in the Mavs favor. Substituting a swap would even it out IMO. I worry about our defense losing Wes, but Monta's playmaking and scoring ability might be even more valuable to us this season.

I give it a tentative yes. I wouldn't mind if the Mavs made this move, and I wouldn't mind if they passed on it either.

Okay, is that a yes vote for KOTB? If so, and if the above all are as well, that would make this at 5-4 and scoring.

basketballwacko2, Darren, The Sparest

Can you guys all confirm you are voting KOTB yes (If you believe all teams would accept this trade, vote yes. If you believe otherwise, vote no. Please explain your vote) and not just for your team.

Cause I think Chuck just got a point!