Random Boston Celtic chatter containment

[Texas Chuck]

When Brown punches a fan on video or shows major red flags related to his ability to defend and rebound his position, come talk to me.

Brown has a far greater upside than Mudiay, Murray, or yes even Jokic because he's a far better athlete and has ridiculous defensive upside to match what is already proving to be an elite first step and excellent footwork.

Jokic, Murray are both talented guys who are less than stellar athletically... so unless they completely maximize their skills, there will be questions about how good they can become relative to their lack of measure able tools physically.

I didn't say Zizic was better than Nurkic, but he's an excellent prospect in a very similar mold.

Gallo had almost no real value to a team like Boston. The reality is that the Celtics probably are targeting better players in free agency than Galinari. So he's essentially a rental.

Nurkic is O.K. He's a solid prospect at the center position. No one is building their team around Nurkic. And that's what you're looking for when you draft at #3... Brown has that type of ability, really just a question of whether or not he will put the work in.

Given your description of Brown, hard to believe that two teams passed on him. Amazing how the upside of every non-Celtics player is viewed as pessimistically as possible and yet it is nothing but optimism for Celtics players. I'm sure all of these positions pre-dated the draft.

I have high opinions of a lot of players, starting with Embiid and Simmons, both of whom have an opportunity to be transcendent (and I put Brown a tier below that, which would be "franchise" player).

I was actually a huge Okafor fan coming out of Duke. Thought he had clear franchise player potential. The problem was that he showed MAJOR red flags both on and off the court, regressed as a passer, and generally displayed a sort of lazy attitude toward his development.

Noel, I always felt was a bit of a dud. Poor hands, thin thin frame. Excellent mobility but poor strength for the position he plays. Terrible offensive mechanics from shooting to footwork to touch around the basket.

I was actually very high on Brown pre-draft (and Murray). But more importantly than just following scouting reports and running with that (something people seem to have fallen into with Brown), I actually watch the players closely and form my own opinions.

And Brown looks every bit the role of elite wing prospect from his physical profile to his footwork, to reports on his preparation. The kid has major tools, ambixterous finisher, good passer who sees the floor well, dominant in transition, versatile defender, elite of the elite first step quickness and a highly developed low and mid-post game.

[BullyKing]

Chuck, the way you quoted that makes it seem like that is your opinion of Brown. I leave it to you as to whether you want to be associated with those positions for the rest of time.

[Texas Chuck]

Chuck, the way you quoted that makes it seem like that is your opinion of Brown. I leave it to you as to whether you want to be associated with those positions for the rest of time.

nowIknow amirite? But corrected and thanks for the heads up on that.

[Texas Chuck]

so now that we have this thread---and I fully expect more posts to get moved into this considering how many topics over the past several months have turned into Celtics discussion---I want to talk about my thoughts on the current Celtics situation.

I still think they should be pushing hard to consolidate for the best player they can. But I believe Ainge tried to do that this summer and either those players weren't really available or he felt the price simply too high.

So the next logical step would be to take non-Brooklyn pick assets and try and upgrade the team for this year but without cutting into flexibility for this summer. So either dealing for guys on expiring contracts or guys who represent good value on their current contract that they could move this summer if they needed space for a free agent/trade target.

My two main targets for them would be a wing, preferably a SF, who could create some offense for them and a defensive big.

Potential bigs to target: Bogut(rental), Whiteside(long-term solution, costly to acquire), Gortat(value contract they could move again this summer), Nurkic(still cheap next year), Tyson Chandler(riskiest choice but his game fits perfectly_

Potential wings to target: Gallo(don't think Denver is open but he's exactly what Boston needs), Gay(not ideal, but cheaper option), Korver(not while Atlanta is winning), and maybe kick the tires on both Hayward and Melo tho both long, long shots.

[Karmaloop]

Definitely don't follow the Brown love, I believe I had him ranked 8th prior to the draft.

[nowyouknow]

And the further we go into the season the more ridiculous the Brown doubters will look for their pre and post draft opinions.

[gom]

As a Heat fan it's hard to me to feel any Celtic love, but I think they've done a staggeringly great job putting a good young team together. Credit to their excellent front office, especially Billy King. Ok, ok. Now my sincerity is tattered, but I really do admire what the Green Men have done, including drafting Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart. Plus they still have a reserve of great picks. My advice would be not to rush it.

[Texas Chuck]

Read on Twitter

Now I still think Nurkic is clearly more valuable than him, but I imagine this is part of his optimism on Zizic.

[Texas Chuck]

And the further we go into the season the more ridiculous the Brown doubters will look for their pre and post draft opinions.

Or the Brown truthers if he falters?

I don't think this rookie season will determine his career and won't overreact either way. Right now he looks exactly like I'd expect him to look--he can score at the rim, but literally nowhere else. He isn't rebounding and he's been poor defensively.

But its easy to look at his production per minute and his FG% and think he's playing better than he really is. He's got a long way to go yet.

[nowyouknow]

And the further we go into the season the more ridiculous the Brown doubters will look for their pre and post draft opinions.

Or the Brown truthers if he falters?

I don't think this rookie season will determine his career and won't overreact either way. Right now he looks exactly like I'd expect him to look--he can score at the rim, but literally nowhere else. He isn't rebounding and he's been poor defensively.

But its easy to look at his production per minute and his FG% and think he's playing better than he really is. He's got a long way to go yet.

If you have watched Brown you would know he's shown excellent touch and feel in mid-range and in between shots.

He is also been passing the ball very well.

And his defense has been very solid for a 19 year old... he's gotten backdoored here and there, but that's pretty common among young players adjusting to the pro game.

[pacers33granger]

I don't get the rental argument for Gallo. I get his injury history, but who are these better players Boston will be targeting? I mean yeah you have pipe dream guys like Griffin/Hayward, but after them the only logical targets who I'd say are clearly better than Gallo are Millsap and Ibaka. So I'd expect Boston to at least have Gallo as a backup plan in free agency no matter what.

[nowyouknow]

I don't get the rental argument for Gallo. I get his injury history, but who are these better players Boston will be targeting? I mean yeah you have pipe dream guys like Griffin/Hayward, but after them the only logical targets who I'd say are clearly better than Gallo are Millsap and Ibaka. So I'd expect Boston to at least have Gallo as a backup plan in free agency no matter what.

You seem to get it.

The Celtics will be targeting Griffin, Hayward and Millsap.

So if they trade for Gallo, they would have zero rights to retain him as he'd be an unrestricted free agent who'd be seeking the best contract and situation for himself much like Evan Turner did while the Celtics pursued the "pipe dream" of Durant.

If the Celtics trade for Galinari it means that they are foregoing the chase for the elite tier of free agents, despite them likely not having max cap space again for the foreseeable future.

Pretty simple stuff really. Ainge is going to chase the big fish. That's always been his thing. It takes great players to win and Ainge has been around the greats and isn't fooled into thinking someone like Gallo is one.

[pacers33granger]

I don't get the rental argument for Gallo. I get his injury history, but who are these better players Boston will be targeting? I mean yeah you have pipe dream guys like Griffin/Hayward, but after them the only logical targets who I'd say are clearly better than Gallo are Millsap and Ibaka. So I'd expect Boston to at least have Gallo as a backup plan in free agency no matter what.

You seem to get it.

The Celtics will be targeting Griffin, Hayward and Millsap.

So if they trade for Gallo, they would have zero rights to retain him as he'd be an unrestricted free agent who'd be seeking the best contract and situation for himself much like Evan Turner did while the Celtics pursued the "pipe dream" of Durant.

If the Celtics trade for Galinari it means that they are foregoing the chase for the elite tier of free agents, despite them likely not having max cap space again for the foreseeable future.

Pretty simple stuff really. Ainge is going to chase the big fish. That's always been his thing. It takes great players to win and Ainge has been around the greats and isn't fooled into thinking someone like Gallo is one.

You don't think that Ainge will go after someone like Gallo if he strikes out on the top guys? Griffin and Hayward seem highly unlikely to leave their teams. Who knows with Millsap, but it seems like Atlanta's preparing to offer him a ton of money to stay.

I mean, yeah if Denver wants a Brooklyn pick, Brown, or Smart then I'd say that's too rich for Boston. But if it's Zeller and some other firsts or a lower level prospect, then why not even if it is for a year.

After next season, a lot of the bargain contracts come up (IT, Bradley, Smart) so it seems likely a lot of space is gobbled up with them that offseason making it difficult to sign a max guy. So you may have the option of a guy like Gallo this offeason, or no one next offseason.

[nowyouknow]

I don't get the rental argument for Gallo. I get his injury history, but who are these better players Boston will be targeting? I mean yeah you have pipe dream guys like Griffin/Hayward, but after them the only logical targets who I'd say are clearly better than Gallo are Millsap and Ibaka. So I'd expect Boston to at least have Gallo as a backup plan in free agency no matter what.

You seem to get it.

The Celtics will be targeting Griffin, Hayward and Millsap.

So if they trade for Gallo, they would have zero rights to retain him as he'd be an unrestricted free agent who'd be seeking the best contract and situation for himself much like Evan Turner did while the Celtics pursued the "pipe dream" of Durant.

If the Celtics trade for Galinari it means that they are foregoing the chase for the elite tier of free agents, despite them likely not having max cap space again for the foreseeable future.

Pretty simple stuff really. Ainge is going to chase the big fish. That's always been his thing. It takes great players to win and Ainge has been around the greats and isn't fooled into thinking someone like Gallo is one.

You don't think that Ainge will go after someone like Gallo if he strikes out on the top guys? Griffin and Hayward seem highly unlikely to leave their teams. Who knows with Millsap, but it seems like Atlanta's preparing to offer him a ton of money to stay.

I mean, yeah if Denver wants a Brooklyn pick, Brown, or Smart then I'd say that's too rich for Boston. But if it's Zeller and some other firsts or a lower level prospect, then why not even if it is for a year.

After next season, a lot of the bargain contracts come up (IT, Bradley, Smart) so it seems likely a lot of space is gobbled up with them that offseason making it difficult to sign a max guy. So you may have the option of a guy like Gallo this offeason, or no one next offseason.

Did I say that I wouldn't make a deal for Gallo if it only involved lesser assets? I certainly would deal Zeller, future non Brooklyn firsts and possibly even Olynyk for Gallo.

My objection was purely to the vast gulf of value difference between Brown and Gallo-Nurkic.

Nurkic is a fine player. But is he a franchise go to type of player? I don't think so. He's a bit of a lumberer in the era of the gazelle.

Brown may or may not be a franchise player but he has a much more easy to visualize path to superstardom.

Gallo could very well end up being the guy the Celtics get in free agency... but he's not plan A, and probably isn't plan C or D.

I could absolutely envision a deal being struck between Boston and Denver, but Brown isn't likely to be involved unless Ainge feels the move would deliver a title this year and a core to do that moving forward.

So really if Brown is on the table, if Smart or any of the starters is on the table, (sans Amir), there has to be a franchise player or potential franchise player coming back.

The only player with franchise player potential for me is Jokic. He would also be an extraordinary fit for Brad and this club.

Both teams have a ton of pieces of value though, so no doubt there remains potential to get a deal done.

[pacers33granger]

Did I say that I wouldn't make a deal for Gallo if it only involved lesser assets? I certainly would deal Zeller, future non Brooklyn firsts and possibly even Olynyk for Gallo.

My objection was purely to the vast gulf of value difference between Brown and Gallo-Nurkic.

Nurkic is a fine player. But is he a franchise go to type of player? I don't think so. He's a bit of a lumberer in the era of the gazelle.

Brown may or may not be a franchise player but he has a much more easy to visualize path to superstardom.

Gallo could very well end up being the guy the Celtics get in free agency... but he's not plan A, and probably isn't plan C or D.

I could absolutely envision a deal being struck between Boston and Denver, but Brown isn't likely to be involved unless Ainge feels the move would deliver a title this year and a core to do that moving forward.

So really if Brown is on the table, if Smart or any of the starters is on the table, (sans Amir), there has to be a franchise player or potential franchise player coming back.

The only player with franchise player potential for me is Jokic. He would also be an extraordinary fit for Brad and this club.

Both teams have a ton of pieces of value though, so no doubt there remains potential to get a deal done.

Well you said:

Gallo had almost no real value to a team like Boston. The reality is that the Celtics probably are targeting better players in free agency than Galinari. So he's essentially a rental.

And:

If the Celtics trade for Galinari it means that they are foregoing the chase for the elite tier of free agents, despite them likely not having max cap space again for the foreseeable future.

Pretty simple stuff really. Ainge is going to chase the big fish. That's always been his thing. It takes great players to win and Ainge has been around the greats and isn't fooled into thinking someone like Gallo is one.

So I mean it kind of sounded like you had no interest at all in Gallo and didn't see him moving the needle or being that good. And calling him Plan C or D seems quite unfair to me. Plan A would be one of those 3 targets. I'd imagine Gallo and a few others would be Plan B. The free agent crop next year is likely to be pretty bare outside of guys who are almost a lock to stay where they are.

The Brown-Nurkic part isn't in this thread that I can see, so I didn't have any prior knowledge of that part.

[the_process]

And the further we go into the season the more ridiculous the Brown doubters will look for their pre and post draft opinions.

This also works in reverse.

[RRFB]

This is a weird thread. The Nuggets aren't trading Gallo for Tyler Zeller and mediocre picks, and they definitely aren't giving Boston Jokic or Nurkic without getting at least Brown back. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Celtics aren't getting a "franchise player" for Marcus Smart either.

[reload141]

I still think the most realistic trades for Boston are Bogut and Bogdanovic as rentals (Bog has a QO for next season).

Both provide what the team desperately needs with Bogut obviously defense/passing/rim protection and Bogdanovic is a fantastic shooter who could come off the bench and give real power to the 2nd unit.

As far as trading for both of these guys go I think it's more a Jan/Feb move as Zeller cannot be traded until Jan 14th. Maybe if Dallas is looking really bad we could do a swap of Zeller/Bogut and add in Young and a 2nd or two?
As for Bogdanovic I don't know what we'd give up... maybe a late first and another young prospect?

Then we can still go into the offseason and see how we go acquiring either Blake/Hayward as UFA's or bundle up some Brooklyn picks and go hunting for a Star who wants out.

[Patsfan1081]

This is a weird thread. The Nuggets aren't trading Gallo for Tyler Zeller and mediocre picks, and they definitely aren't giving Boston Jokic or Nurkic without getting at least Brown back. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Celtics aren't getting a "franchise player" for Marcus Smart either.

I don't see anyone saying Smart has that value to get a franchise player.

[dorkestra]

I'm also in the minority but I believe Jaylen Brown is worth building around.