Knicks Trading Challenge...off season

[Knickfan1982]

Feels like the obvious move is go get Bridges or go and or go and move Randle for a PF upgrade in Lauri/Kat/Zion

I doubt Zion is available and I doubt KAT is available if Minny does well in the playoffs though, but I can see Randle and tons of picks and swaps for Lauri

Lauri is not an upgrade over Julius and honestly the last thing we need. Brunson would be our only creator on the roster if we made that swap.

I dont think many people agree here

How is Randle better than Lauri?

Lauri ranks much higher in EPM as well

Randle is a poor shooter, he is more of a chucker who had 1 good year shooting

He has had bad playoff moments as well

Randle is the certainly the better playmaker. Lauri is averaging 2 assists a game this year which is his peak. Randle has averaged more than double that over 4 out of his 5 years as a Knick. And he's done it for winning teams. Randle's team will be going to the playoffs for the 3rd time since he's been here.I like that he's shown he can step things up Lauri's teams have only been to the playoffs once so is he really that good or just looks good surrounded by bad players. Plus he's going to be 27 in May. How much more growth is there left?

[cgf]

Feels like the obvious move is go get Bridges or go and or go and move Randle for a PF upgrade in Lauri/Kat/Zion

I doubt Zion is available and I doubt KAT is available if Minny does well in the playoffs though, but I can see Randle and tons of picks and swaps for Lauri

Lauri is not an upgrade over Julius and honestly the last thing we need. Brunson would be our only creator on the roster if we made that swap.

I dont think many people agree here

How is Randle better than Lauri?

Lauri ranks much higher in EPM as well

Randle is a poor shooter, he is more of a chucker who had 1 good year shooting

He has had bad playoff moments as well

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but it really depends on what you need and what metrics you put more stock in...EPM favors Lauri but DARKO favors Juju. If you already have elite creators, then I get going with the better finisher since you already have the guys to generate shots for him...but Randle is a much better creator, a better rebounder and a better defender.

...not by a ton as Julius' decision making as a help guy is something to behold , but it's there in the metrics:
Lauri -0.9 d-EPM, -0.53 d-DARKO, -0.07 d-LEBRON, 15.5 TRB%
Juju -0.2 d-EPM, -0.3 d-DARKO, -0.12 d-LEBRON, 14.1 TRB%

So unless we were bringing another star creator in to replace Robinson or DiVincenzo, Markannen wouldn't be an upgrade for us. Brunson's great, but he can't be the only creator on the roster. That's why Jalen is so much more effective when he has Randle next to him, drawing double teams of his own before getting the ball moving.

As for Randle's playoff performances, they have been bad, but last season he was playing through an ankle injury that required ankle surgery as soon as the season was over...while in '21 we were starting Elfrid Payton at PG, not Jalen Brunson.


And which year was Randle's "1 good year shooting"? Are you talking about '21? Cause his TS was higher last season (58.1%) than it was in '21 (56.7%)...and the best basketball he's played in NY has been this season; after those historically bad first 6 games of the season he was putting up around 25pts (on ~60% TS), 9 Rebs, 5 asts, while being a slight negative defensively.

[JayTWill]

Lauri and Julius are both talented offensive players with different offensive styles but how exactly is Lauri a bad fit for the Knicks other than Thibs' stagnant offense? Randle has more on ball gravity and is a better on ball creator while Markkanen has greater off ball gravity and provides much better spacing. Brunson could benefit from playing next to either one.

I could understand if Lauri was being spoon fed easy buckets playing next to Jokic but he has scored as much as Randle this year on much better efficiency without a super talented team around him. Do some people expect him to be less effective playing on a more talented roster?

I wouldn't want to pay a super hefty price to convert Julius into Markkanen but I definitely have no issue swapping the two especially if the Knicks had a more offensively creative coach.

[NYG]

Randle, Bojan, Sims and however many 1sts for KD?

[cgf]

Lauri and Julius are both talented offensive players with different offensive styles but how exactly is Lauri a bad fit for the Knicks other than Thibs' stagnant offense? Randle has more on ball gravity and is a better on ball creator while Markkanen has greater off ball gravity and provides much better spacing. Brunson could benefit from playing next to either one.

I could understand if Lauri was being spoon fed easy buckets playing next to Jokic but he has scored as much as Randle this year on much better efficiency without a super talented team around him. Do some people expect him to be less effective playing on a more talented roster?

I wouldn't want to pay a super hefty price to convert Julius into Markkanen but I definitely have no issue swapping the two especially if the Knicks had a more offensively creative coach.

Lauri's not a bad fit...if we go out and get somebody else that can put the ball on the court to put pressure on the defense and create for his team-mates to replace DDV or RobinHart. If we don't and just swapped Randle for Lauri, we'd have the same problem we have right now with Randle injured.

...if you can blitz/trap the ball out of Jalen's hands, there's nobody we can bank on to create. Plus it's easier to blitz/trap Jalen when he's the only one who can create with the ball...and he doesn't get to run around away from the ball as much; which is one of his strengths.

As for Randle & Lauri's efficency. 74.2% of Lauri's 2's & 98.3% of his 3s are assisted. 42.3% of Randle's 2s & 86.8% of his 3s were assisted. Those are completely different roles...for comparison OG has been assisted on 66.2% of his 2s & 96.7% of his 3s as a knick.


I'll leave the thibs stuff. I know people have their opinions about him and I'm tired of debating them

[JayTWill]

Lauri and Julius are both talented offensive players with different offensive styles but how exactly is Lauri a bad fit for the Knicks other than Thibs' stagnant offense? Randle has more on ball gravity and is a better on ball creator while Markkanen has greater off ball gravity and provides much better spacing. Brunson could benefit from playing next to either one.

I could understand if Lauri was being spoon fed easy buckets playing next to Jokic but he has scored as much as Randle this year on much better efficiency without a super talented team around him. Do some people expect him to be less effective playing on a more talented roster?

I wouldn't want to pay a super hefty price to convert Julius into Markkanen but I definitely have no issue swapping the two especially if the Knicks had a more offensively creative coach.

Lauri's not a bad fit...if we go out and get somebody else that can put the ball on the court to put pressure on the defense and create for his team-mates to replace DDV or RobinHart. If we don't and just swapped Randle for Lauri, we'd have the same problem we have right now with Randle injured.

...if you can blitz/trap the ball out of Jalen's hands, there's nobody we can bank on to create. Plus it's easier to blitz/trap Jalen when he's the only one who can create with the ball...and he doesn't get to run around away from the ball as much; which is one of his strengths.

As for Randle & Lauri's efficency. 74.2% of Lauri's 2's & 98.3% of his 3s are assisted. 42.3% of Randle's 2s & 86.8% of his 3s were assisted. Those are completely different roles...for comparison OG has been assisted on 66.2% of his 2s & 96.7% of his 3s as a knick.


I'll leave the thibs stuff. I know people have their opinions about him and I'm tired of debating them

I understand that Lauri's offense is more highly assisted than Randle's but why could the same plays that are effective creating opportunities for him Utah in starting lineups such as Dunn, Sexton, Fontecchio, Markkanen and Collins not be effective with Brunson, DDV, OG, Markkanen and IHart? It's not as if the Utah team is full of superior offensive creators for him to play off of. Clarkson had a terrible year. Dunn is limited offensively. THT is whatever. George is a rookie still trying to figure things out and Sexton has shown much improvement but is still a questionable decision maker.

[cgf]

Lauri and Julius are both talented offensive players with different offensive styles but how exactly is Lauri a bad fit for the Knicks other than Thibs' stagnant offense? Randle has more on ball gravity and is a better on ball creator while Markkanen has greater off ball gravity and provides much better spacing. Brunson could benefit from playing next to either one.

I could understand if Lauri was being spoon fed easy buckets playing next to Jokic but he has scored as much as Randle this year on much better efficiency without a super talented team around him. Do some people expect him to be less effective playing on a more talented roster?

I wouldn't want to pay a super hefty price to convert Julius into Markkanen but I definitely have no issue swapping the two especially if the Knicks had a more offensively creative coach.

Lauri's not a bad fit...if we go out and get somebody else that can put the ball on the court to put pressure on the defense and create for his team-mates to replace DDV or RobinHart. If we don't and just swapped Randle for Lauri, we'd have the same problem we have right now with Randle injured.

...if you can blitz/trap the ball out of Jalen's hands, there's nobody we can bank on to create. Plus it's easier to blitz/trap Jalen when he's the only one who can create with the ball...and he doesn't get to run around away from the ball as much; which is one of his strengths.

As for Randle & Lauri's efficency. 74.2% of Lauri's 2's & 98.3% of his 3s are assisted. 42.3% of Randle's 2s & 86.8% of his 3s were assisted. Those are completely different roles...for comparison OG has been assisted on 66.2% of his 2s & 96.7% of his 3s as a knick.


I'll leave the thibs stuff. I know people have their opinions about him and I'm tired of debating them

I understand that Lauri's offense is more highly assisted than Randle's but why could the same plays that are effective creating opportunities for him Utah in starting lineups such as Dunn, Sexton, Fontecchio, Markkanen and Collins not be effective with Brunson, DDV, OG, Markkanen and IHart? It's not as if the Utah team is full of superior offensive creators for him to play off of. Clarkson had a terrible year. Dunn is limited offensively. THT is whatever. George is a rookie still trying to figure things out and Sexton has shown much improvement but is still a questionable decision maker.

Those lineups could be effective, but they wouldn't solve the problems we've run into without Julius to keep Jalen from being the only reliable threat to break down a defense. So they probably wouldn't be as effective as lineups with Brunson, DDV, OG, Randle, & iHart.

And Clarkson has shot like butt this year, but he's also creating more than ever before.

[JayTWill]

Lauri's not a bad fit...if we go out and get somebody else that can put the ball on the court to put pressure on the defense and create for his team-mates to replace DDV or RobinHart. If we don't and just swapped Randle for Lauri, we'd have the same problem we have right now with Randle injured.

...if you can blitz/trap the ball out of Jalen's hands, there's nobody we can bank on to create. Plus it's easier to blitz/trap Jalen when he's the only one who can create with the ball...and he doesn't get to run around away from the ball as much; which is one of his strengths.

As for Randle & Lauri's efficency. 74.2% of Lauri's 2's & 98.3% of his 3s are assisted. 42.3% of Randle's 2s & 86.8% of his 3s were assisted. Those are completely different roles...for comparison OG has been assisted on 66.2% of his 2s & 96.7% of his 3s as a knick.


I'll leave the thibs stuff. I know people have their opinions about him and I'm tired of debating them

I understand that Lauri's offense is more highly assisted than Randle's but why could the same plays that are effective creating opportunities for him Utah in starting lineups such as Dunn, Sexton, Fontecchio, Markkanen and Collins not be effective with Brunson, DDV, OG, Markkanen and IHart? It's not as if the Utah team is full of superior offensive creators for him to play off of. Clarkson had a terrible year. Dunn is limited offensively. THT is whatever. George is a rookie still trying to figure things out and Sexton has shown much improvement but is still a questionable decision maker.

Those lineups could be effective, but they wouldn't solve the problems we've run into without Julius to keep Jalen from being the only reliable threat to break down a defense. So they probably wouldn't be as effective as lineups with Brunson, DDV, OG, Randle, & iHart.

You can cause defensive breakdowns with ball movement and player movement too. A 7 footer with Lauri's ability to move off the ball and space the floor isn't exactly easy to guard either. He is not just some stand still catch and shoot guy.

[cgf]

I understand that Lauri's offense is more highly assisted than Randle's but why could the same plays that are effective creating opportunities for him Utah in starting lineups such as Dunn, Sexton, Fontecchio, Markkanen and Collins not be effective with Brunson, DDV, OG, Markkanen and IHart? It's not as if the Utah team is full of superior offensive creators for him to play off of. Clarkson had a terrible year. Dunn is limited offensively. THT is whatever. George is a rookie still trying to figure things out and Sexton has shown much improvement but is still a questionable decision maker.

Those lineups could be effective, but they wouldn't solve the problems we've run into without Julius to keep Jalen from being the only reliable threat to break down a defense. So they probably wouldn't be as effective as lineups with Brunson, DDV, OG, Randle, & iHart.

You can cause defensive breakdowns with ball movement and player movement too. A 7 footer with Lauri's ability to move off the ball and space the floor isn't exactly easy to guard either. He is not just some stand still catch and shoot guy.

You can, but you won't stop teams from blitzing/trapping the s*** out of Jalen and that kills his efficiency...before Julius got hurt his TS was at 61-62%, since then it's dropped to 58.8% (league average is 58.0%).

[JayTWill]

Those lineups could be effective, but they wouldn't solve the problems we've run into without Julius to keep Jalen from being the only reliable threat to break down a defense. So they probably wouldn't be as effective as lineups with Brunson, DDV, OG, Randle, & iHart.

You can cause defensive breakdowns with ball movement and player movement too. A 7 footer with Lauri's ability to move off the ball and space the floor isn't exactly easy to guard either. He is not just some stand still catch and shoot guy.

You can, but you won't stop teams from blitzing/trapping the s*** out of Jalen and that kills his efficiency...before Julius got hurt his TS was at 61-62%, since then it's dropped to 58.8% (league average is 58.0%).

Of course teams will blitz/trap the s*** out of Jalen since the Knicks are so highly dependent on his offense out of pick and roll. Diversifying the offense would help alleviate some of that pressure and come playoff time i'm not sure Randle's presence would stop Brunson from being trapped. Obviously Brunson benefits from having someone else to carry the offensive load in Randle but depending less on Randle isolations and Brunson pnr could be very beneficial also.

[cgf]

You can cause defensive breakdowns with ball movement and player movement too. A 7 footer with Lauri's ability to move off the ball and space the floor isn't exactly easy to guard either. He is not just some stand still catch and shoot guy.

You can, but you won't stop teams from blitzing/trapping the s*** out of Jalen and that kills his efficiency...before Julius got hurt his TS was at 61-62%, since then it's dropped to 58.8% (league average is 58.0%).

Of course teams will blitz/trap the s*** out of Jalen since the Knicks are so highly dependent on his offense out of pick and roll. Diversifying the offense would help alleviate some of that pressure and come playoff time i'm not sure Randle's presence would stop Brunson from being trapped. Obviously Brunson benefits from having someone else to carry the offensive load in Randle but depending less on Randle isolations and Brunson pnr could be very beneficial also.

It did last year, why wouldn't it this year?

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[JayTWill]

You can, but you won't stop teams from blitzing/trapping the s*** out of Jalen and that kills his efficiency...before Julius got hurt his TS was at 61-62%, since then it's dropped to 58.8% (league average is 58.0%).

Of course teams will blitz/trap the s*** out of Jalen since the Knicks are so highly dependent on his offense out of pick and roll. Diversifying the offense would help alleviate some of that pressure and come playoff time i'm not sure Randle's presence would stop Brunson from being trapped. Obviously Brunson benefits from having someone else to carry the offensive load in Randle but depending less on Randle isolations and Brunson pnr could be very beneficial also.

It did last year, why wouldn't it this year?

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That stat doesn't say anything about being blitzed but I know you just want to give Randle his props every chance you get. I did not say Randle did not help Brunson. Lauri would have his struggles if used the way Randle is used and Randle would struggle in Lauri's role. I think Lauri would be a great fit with the Knick's core minus Thibs. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[cgf]

Of course teams will blitz/trap the s*** out of Jalen since the Knicks are so highly dependent on his offense out of pick and roll. Diversifying the offense would help alleviate some of that pressure and come playoff time i'm not sure Randle's presence would stop Brunson from being trapped. Obviously Brunson benefits from having someone else to carry the offensive load in Randle but depending less on Randle isolations and Brunson pnr could be very beneficial also.

It did last year, why wouldn't it this year?

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That stat doesn't say anything about being blitzed but I know you just want to give Randle his props every chance you get. I did not say Randle did not help Brunson. Lauri would have his struggles if used the way Randle is used and Randle would struggle in Lauri's role. I think Lauri would be a great fit with the Knick's core minus Thibs. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Not directly...dunno how to find those #s without paying for second spectrum...but it is circumstantial evidence that Brunson wasn't getting the same intensity of defensive attention with Julius on the court. If you know a better way to look at the impact Randle's presence last spring had on the attention Brunson was getting, let me know. I'm genuinely curious and happy to change my opinion...for example, I hated the Randle signing when it happened, but he's proven me wrong.

I also think you're probably overly critical of Thibs, based on your comments, but I'm happy to agree to disagree about that.

[JayTWill]

It did last year, why wouldn't it this year?

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That stat doesn't say anything about being blitzed but I know you just want to give Randle his props every chance you get. I did not say Randle did not help Brunson. Lauri would have his struggles if used the way Randle is used and Randle would struggle in Lauri's role. I think Lauri would be a great fit with the Knick's core minus Thibs. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Not directly...dunno how to find those #s without paying for second spectrum...but it is circumstantial evidence that Brunson wasn't getting the same intensity of defensive attention with Julius on the court. If you know a better way to look at the impact Randle's presence last spring had on the attention Brunson was getting, let me know. I'm genuinely curious and happy to change my opinion...for example, I hated the Randle signing when it happened, but he's proven me wrong.

I also think you're probably overly critical of Thibs, based on your comments, but I'm happy to agree to disagree about that.

You turned this into a defense of Randle when I am just trying to understand how Lauri's style would be a worse fit than Randle's with this current Knicks roster. I don't know how blitzing Brunson becomes a bigger concern with a better shooter and finisher in Lauri. Randle isn't exactly the ideal release valve if Brunson is being trapped. He is not a floor spacer and he is not really a quick decision maker for a 4 on 3 situation.

By the way the Knicks post season basically ended last year with Brunson trapped near the baseline and turning the ball over trying to force a pass to Randle in the paint with poor spacing.

[cgf]

That stat doesn't say anything about being blitzed but I know you just want to give Randle his props every chance you get. I did not say Randle did not help Brunson. Lauri would have his struggles if used the way Randle is used and Randle would struggle in Lauri's role. I think Lauri would be a great fit with the Knick's core minus Thibs. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Not directly...dunno how to find those #s without paying for second spectrum...but it is circumstantial evidence that Brunson wasn't getting the same intensity of defensive attention with Julius on the court. If you know a better way to look at the impact Randle's presence last spring had on the attention Brunson was getting, let me know. I'm genuinely curious and happy to change my opinion...for example, I hated the Randle signing when it happened, but he's proven me wrong.

I also think you're probably overly critical of Thibs, based on your comments, but I'm happy to agree to disagree about that.

You turned this into a defense of Randle when I am just trying to understand how Lauri's style would be a worse fit than Randle's with this current Knicks roster. I don't know how blitzing Brunson becomes a bigger concern with a better shooter and finisher in Lauri. Randle isn't exactly the ideal release valve if Brunson is being trapped. He is not a floor spacer and he is not really a quick decision maker for a 4 on 3 situation.

By the way the Knicks post season basically ended last year with Brunson trapped near the baseline and turning the ball over trying to force a pass to Randle in the paint with poor spacing.

Huh? You quoted me after I said that Markannen wouldn't be an upgrade over Randle for us. How can I continue that discussion without discussing Randle?

Randle moves the ball quite quickly if you look at his touch time because he has really good vision...even if he doesn't always have the touch to complete the passes he sees...and if he doesn't, he can get to the rim against anyone 1-on-1. So teams have to be in position to double Randle, meaning they can't be as aggressive about doubling Brunson.


*An injured Randle with poor spacing because Hart couldn't hit the broadside of a barn & Grimes was banged up too.

[Ell Curry]

Feels like there are 2 ways for the Knicks to upgrade that are both similar; 3 way deals with picks going to a tanking team and a good but lesser player (Randle, Robinson or Hart/DDV) going to a decent team who will send another pick or 2 to that tanking team for an upgrade, though the latter type of move would break up the Villanova guys.

[JayTWill]

Not directly...dunno how to find those #s without paying for second spectrum...but it is circumstantial evidence that Brunson wasn't getting the same intensity of defensive attention with Julius on the court. If you know a better way to look at the impact Randle's presence last spring had on the attention Brunson was getting, let me know. I'm genuinely curious and happy to change my opinion...for example, I hated the Randle signing when it happened, but he's proven me wrong.

I also think you're probably overly critical of Thibs, based on your comments, but I'm happy to agree to disagree about that.

You turned this into a defense of Randle when I am just trying to understand how Lauri's style would be a worse fit than Randle's with this current Knicks roster. I don't know how blitzing Brunson becomes a bigger concern with a better shooter and finisher in Lauri. Randle isn't exactly the ideal release valve if Brunson is being trapped. He is not a floor spacer and he is not really a quick decision maker for a 4 on 3 situation.

By the way the Knicks post season basically ended last year with Brunson trapped near the baseline and turning the ball over trying to force a pass to Randle in the paint with poor spacing.

Huh? You quoted me after I said that Markannen wouldn't be an upgrade over Randle for us. How can I continue that discussion without discussing Randle?

Randle moves the ball quite quickly if you look at his touch time because he has really good vision...even if he doesn't always have the touch to complete the passes he sees...and if he doesn't, he can get to the rim against anyone 1-on-1. So teams have to be in position to double Randle, meaning they can't be as aggressive about doubling Brunson.


*An injured Randle with poor spacing because Hart couldn't hit the broadside of a barn & Grimes was banged up too.

I was saying you were defending Randle since you just threw out a random stat that showed nothing about Brunson being blitzed/trapped. As far as being trapped I have seen plenty of times where Brunson has been trapped and Randle comes to the top of the key as a release valve but then takes a second survey the floor before making a move negating the 4 on 3 advantage and allowing the defense to recover.

Randle has his advantages over Lauri. Randle allows Brunson to rest on the offensive end where when Randle has a favorable matchup he can just give him the ball and let him go to work. Randle also provides the ability to draw a double team and force rotations creating open shots for others including Brunson.

I'm just saying preventing Brunson from being blitzed may not be one of the advantages Randle provides. If teams want to force the ball out of Brunson's hand they will regardless of if Randle is on the floor or not. And if they do having Lauri's spacing and shooting on the floor may be more advantageous than Randle's ability to create an advantage since the advantage will already have been created and the team would just need to find the open man in a 4 on 3 situation and make the shot.

[cgf]

You turned this into a defense of Randle when I am just trying to understand how Lauri's style would be a worse fit than Randle's with this current Knicks roster. I don't know how blitzing Brunson becomes a bigger concern with a better shooter and finisher in Lauri. Randle isn't exactly the ideal release valve if Brunson is being trapped. He is not a floor spacer and he is not really a quick decision maker for a 4 on 3 situation.

By the way the Knicks post season basically ended last year with Brunson trapped near the baseline and turning the ball over trying to force a pass to Randle in the paint with poor spacing.

Huh? You quoted me after I said that Markannen wouldn't be an upgrade over Randle for us. How can I continue that discussion without discussing Randle?

Randle moves the ball quite quickly if you look at his touch time because he has really good vision...even if he doesn't always have the touch to complete the passes he sees...and if he doesn't, he can get to the rim against anyone 1-on-1. So teams have to be in position to double Randle, meaning they can't be as aggressive about doubling Brunson.


*An injured Randle with poor spacing because Hart couldn't hit the broadside of a barn & Grimes was banged up too.

I was saying you were defending Randle since you just threw out a random stat that showed nothing about Brunson being blitzed/trapped. As far as being trapped I have seen plenty of times where Brunson has been trapped and Randle comes to the top of the key as a release valve but then takes a second survey the floor before making a move negating the 4 on 3 advantage and allowing the defense to recover.

Randle has his advantages over Lauri. Randle allows Brunson to rest on the offensive end where when Randle has a favorable matchup he can just give him the ball and let him go to work. Randle also provides the ability to draw a double team and force rotations creating open shots for others including Brunson.

I'm just saying preventing Brunson from being blitzed may not be one of the advantages Randle provides. If teams want to force the ball out of Brunson's hand they will regardless of if Randle is on the floor or not. And if they do having Lauri's spacing and shooting on the floor may be more advantageous than Randle's ability to create an advantage since the advantage will already have been created and the team would just need to find the open man in a 4 on 3 situation and make the shot.

Like I said, I'd love to see the #s about how often Brunson faces hard doubles w/ or w/o Randle. I suspect the difference is massive based on the impression I've gotten watching Jalen as a knick & how much his efficiency drops off without Julius, but those are anecdotal & circumstantial telling us more about symptoms of Jalen seeing extra attention. That said, Breen has repeatedly talked about Jalen seeing more doubles since Julius went down, so I suspect the data is there for NBA-people that have access to it.

Randle does hold the ball for longer than your Draymond's and Lauri's...but his avg touch time has been right around Bam's since Jalen arrived and a lot more of his touches involve him quickly swinging the ball than do him chewing up the clock.

Plus Julius holding onto the ball is more beneficial to an offense because he demands double teams regardless of who teams put on him...we're all gushing about OG, but Juju just pushed OG around like he was Nate Robinson when we played Toronto before the trade; when we went up to Milwaukee for the IST and they put Giannis on Julius all game, it was Randle who balled out to keep us in it until late.

Needing to stay in position to double Julius if the ball gets to him is why teams can't be more aggressive about throwing #s at Jalen, just as much as his ability to kill 4-on-3s.

[JayTWill]

Huh? You quoted me after I said that Markannen wouldn't be an upgrade over Randle for us. How can I continue that discussion without discussing Randle?

Randle moves the ball quite quickly if you look at his touch time because he has really good vision...even if he doesn't always have the touch to complete the passes he sees...and if he doesn't, he can get to the rim against anyone 1-on-1. So teams have to be in position to double Randle, meaning they can't be as aggressive about doubling Brunson.


*An injured Randle with poor spacing because Hart couldn't hit the broadside of a barn & Grimes was banged up too.

I was saying you were defending Randle since you just threw out a random stat that showed nothing about Brunson being blitzed/trapped. As far as being trapped I have seen plenty of times where Brunson has been trapped and Randle comes to the top of the key as a release valve but then takes a second survey the floor before making a move negating the 4 on 3 advantage and allowing the defense to recover.

Randle has his advantages over Lauri. Randle allows Brunson to rest on the offensive end where when Randle has a favorable matchup he can just give him the ball and let him go to work. Randle also provides the ability to draw a double team and force rotations creating open shots for others including Brunson.

I'm just saying preventing Brunson from being blitzed may not be one of the advantages Randle provides. If teams want to force the ball out of Brunson's hand they will regardless of if Randle is on the floor or not. And if they do having Lauri's spacing and shooting on the floor may be more advantageous than Randle's ability to create an advantage since the advantage will already have been created and the team would just need to find the open man in a 4 on 3 situation and make the shot.

Like I said, I'd love to see the #s about how often Brunson faces hard doubles w/ or w/o Randle. I suspect the difference is massive based on the impression I've gotten watching Jalen as a knick & how much his efficiency drops off without Julius, but those are anecdotal & circumstantial telling us more about symptoms of Jalen seeing extra attention. That said, Breen has repeatedly talked about Jalen seeing more doubles since Julius went down, so I suspect the data is there for NBA-people that have access to it.

Randle does hold the ball for longer than your Draymond's and Lauri's...but his avg touch time has been right around Bam's since Jalen arrived and a lot more of his touches involve him quickly swinging the ball than do him chewing up the clock.

Plus Julius holding onto the ball is more beneficial to an offense because he demands double teams regardless of who teams put on him...we're all gushing about OG, but Juju just pushed OG around like he was Nate Robinson when we played Toronto before the trade; when we went up to Milwaukee for the IST and they put Giannis on Julius all game, it was Randle who balled out to keep us in it until late.

Needing to stay in position to double Julius if the ball gets to him is why teams can't be more aggressive about throwing #s at Jalen, just as much as his ability to kill 4-on-3s.

I'm not denying that Randle makes life easier for Brunson on the offensive end when they are on the floor together. Randle's biggest strength is his actual physical strength. He makes it very difficult for teams to switch the 1-4 pick and roll. If teams switch Randle will kill the smaller player in the post or force a double. If teams don't switch and go under Brunson can just rise up and shoot the 3. If they go over Brunson can get in the midrange where he is deadly or collapse the defense creating open shots for others.

I just don't see many scenarios where it is a better idea to blitz/trap Brunson with Markkanen on the floor rather than Randle. Teams are less likely to want to leave Lauri wide open behind the 3 point line to send 2 to trap Brunson in the pick and roll.

The Kings blitzed the s*** out of Brunson the other day leaving Hart wide open and Hart made them pay for that. Randle is a superior scoring threat compared to Hart but Hart is a better release valve for Brunson when trapped. Hart is incredible at getting downhill in the open court where he does a great job of reading the positioning of the player he is attacking and getting all the way to rim and he is better passer than Randle in that situation. Lauri on the floor with Hart, another shooter and the big in the dunkers spot gives Hart so many options where Randle would just clutter the paint along with Hart and the other big.

The last time Randle was on the court was actually a 4 on 3 situation not from a trap but you could see the disadvantages over Lauri in that simple situation. Hart was leading a 4 on 3 fast break with Brunson and Grimes on the wings, Julius trailing and 2 heat defenders well behind the play. For some reason Hart threw it back Julius at the 3 point line where maybe he thought Julius would pull up from the 3 or maybe swing it to a wide open Brunson.

Instead Julius chose to drive directly into the paint where there was poor spacing since no one was worried about stepping up to guard Hart or Randle for the threat of the pull up three and there were 3 Heat defenders and 2 Knicks all within feet of each other in the paint leading to a block/charge situation and unfortunately Randle getting injured for the season.

Randle has his strengths over Markkanen but preventing Brunson from getting trapped I just don't see as one of them.