Offers for Brandon Ingram?

[balsamic_ducks]

Really? Interesting. Remind me what Zion can do beyond cutting?

Why does it even matter if you can get 30 points off cutting with elite efficiency.

Because it happens at the cost of other players’ efficiency. To make Zion score 30 pts, all team has to work hard to create him cutting opportunities enough to justify his salary. He is effectively a liability on both ends. No defence, no creation, no shooting, no passing.

Serious question, have you watched Zion? He has the ball in his hands the majority of the time, he creates his own offense and his passing has gotten better every year. He's also not a bad defender anymore

[esvl]

Why does it even matter if you can get 30 points off cutting with elite efficiency.

Because it happens at the cost of other players’ efficiency. To make Zion score 30 pts, all team has to work hard to create him cutting opportunities enough to justify his salary. He is effectively a liability on both ends. No defence, no creation, no shooting, no passing.

Serious question, have you watched Zion? He has the ball in his hands the majority of the time, he creates his own offense and his passing has gotten better every year. He's also not a bad defender anymore

He is a great player, I don’t doubt that. I am judging his ability to be something beyond that - a franchise star the contending team can be built around. I’d rather go with Ingram than him.

[balsamic_ducks]

Because it happens at the cost of other players’ efficiency. To make Zion score 30 pts, all team has to work hard to create him cutting opportunities enough to justify his salary. He is effectively a liability on both ends. No defence, no creation, no shooting, no passing.

Serious question, have you watched Zion? He has the ball in his hands the majority of the time, he creates his own offense and his passing has gotten better every year. He's also not a bad defender anymore

He is a great player, I don’t doubt that. I am judging his ability to be something beyond that - a franchise star the contending team can be built around. I’d rather go with Ingram than him.

That's fair, I just thought your assessment of his game was all wrong. Especially the no creation and no passing part.

[eminence]

If GS wants to keep racking up tax bills: CP3/Kuminga/pick?

[jbk1234]

Why does it even matter if you can get 30 points off cutting with elite efficiency.

Because it happens at the cost of other players’ efficiency. To make Zion score 30 pts, all team has to work hard to create him cutting opportunities enough to justify his salary. He is effectively a liability on both ends. No defence, no creation, no shooting, no passing.

Serious question, have you watched Zion? He has the ball in his hands the majority of the time, he creates his own offense and his passing has gotten better every year. He's also not a bad defender anymore

He's also still a bad defender.

[jbk1234]

I think people are kind of kidding themselves as to what the best offer will be for one of the few under-30, good, two-way SFs will be if he hits the market. He's returning at least as much as Siakam did at the deadline.

[Colbinii]

I think people are kind of kidding themselves as to what the best offer will be for one of the few under-30, good, two-way SFs will be if he hits the market. He's returning at least as much as Siakam did at the deadline.

Is he?

1) Significantly worse player than Siakam
2) No history of scaling up on good teams
3) Character question marks

I think the idea of Ingram is far better than the actualized reality of Ingram

[jbk1234]

I think people are kind of kidding themselves as to what the best offer will be for one of the few under-30, good, two-way SFs will be if he hits the market. He's returning at least as much as Siakam did at the deadline.

Is he?

1) Significantly worse player than Siakam
2) No history of scaling up on good teams
3) Character question marks

I think the idea of Ingram is far better than the actualized reality of Ingram

There's not really a clear statical case for No. 1.

He's 4 years younger than Siakam and he's never played on a team as good as the Raptors with Leonard.

I could be wrong but I think the character stuff is really about his motor and you had Masai publicly calling out Siakam on that very issue when the season started.

The Pelicans are going to get value for him even as a rental.

[RookieJazz]

Jazz can offer 2 FRP + Fillers

[Colbinii]

Jazz can offer 2 FRP + Fillers

They can offer a lot more than 2 FRP.

[HadAnEffectHere]

Jazz can offer 2 FRP + Fillers

They can offer a lot more than 2 FRP.

The Ingram idea is like..... semi plausible but also weird.

Ingram was just... OK this year.

And he would only stay in Utah for a max.

So now you're giving 60% of the salary cap to Ingram and Markkanen.

And Ingram should be your third best player but he needs to be your first option as he doesn't like deferring so you need superstar offball scorers and superstar defenders... And the Jazz have the star offball scorer, but they were the worst defensive team in NBA history...

So you need to get some defensive stars next to Ingram and Markkanen and then the cap starts to look extremely dicey.

Like, if you had a Gobert quality defender at center and a Jrue quality defender at PG, then this core looks great... Acquiring those two guys would be extremely hard and push the Jazz to the second apron with limited depth.

Acquiring Ingram himself is also hard as it probably requires a 3-5 team trade. You need to pay a team to take on John Collins' contract (which has to be sent out in this deal) and you need to send the picks to a third team willing to give up a player that fits better with Zion.

[jbk1234]

Jazz can offer 2 FRP + Fillers

They can offer a lot more than 2 FRP.

The Ingram idea is like..... semi plausible but also weird.

Ingram was just... OK this year.

And he would only stay in Utah for a max.

So now you're giving 60% of the salary cap to Ingram and Markkanen.

And Ingram should be your third best player but he needs to be your first option as he doesn't like deferring so you need superstar offball scorers and superstar defenders... And the Jazz have the star offball scorer, but they were the worst defensive team in NBA history...

So you need to get some defensive stars next to Ingram and Markkanen and then the cap starts to look extremely dicey.

Like, if you had a Gobert quality defender at center and a Jrue quality defender at PG, then this core looks great... Acquiring those two guys would be extremely hard and push the Jazz to the second apron with limited depth.

Acquiring Ingram himself is also hard as it probably requires a 3-5 team trade. You need to pay a team to take on John Collins' contract (which has to be sent out in this deal) and you need to send the picks to a third team willing to give up a player that fits better with Zion.

Ingram's defensive rating was 2 points off of Herb Jones while playing on the same team. The idea that he wasn't as good as Sexton is risible.

[Residual-Heat]

Ingram for Garland trade? Pelicans would need to add something and bench CJ.

[HadAnEffectHere]

They can offer a lot more than 2 FRP.

The Ingram idea is like..... semi plausible but also weird.

Ingram was just... OK this year.

And he would only stay in Utah for a max.

So now you're giving 60% of the salary cap to Ingram and Markkanen.

And Ingram should be your third best player but he needs to be your first option as he doesn't like deferring so you need superstar offball scorers and superstar defenders... And the Jazz have the star offball scorer, but they were the worst defensive team in NBA history...

So you need to get some defensive stars next to Ingram and Markkanen and then the cap starts to look extremely dicey.

Like, if you had a Gobert quality defender at center and a Jrue quality defender at PG, then this core looks great... Acquiring those two guys would be extremely hard and push the Jazz to the second apron with limited depth.

Acquiring Ingram himself is also hard as it probably requires a 3-5 team trade. You need to pay a team to take on John Collins' contract (which has to be sent out in this deal) and you need to send the picks to a third team willing to give up a player that fits better with Zion.

Ingram's defensive rating was 2 points off of Herb Jones while playing on the same team. The idea that he wasn't as good as Sexton is risible.

Individual unadjusted DRtg is a pretty horrible stat, lol. He was benched for defense and decision making last night.

"Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.

Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history's best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team's defensive success). A corollary to this is that excellent perimeter defenders who don't steal the ball a lot — for instance, Joe Dumars or Doug Christie — are underrated defensively by DRtg, and are prone to look only as good as their team's overall defense performs."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

The issue for Ingram is that his TS+ over the last three years is

98
100
100

Which is...... fine for an iso scorer... But not great... And Sexton's was 105.

Ingram also misses around 30 games a year.

[Colbinii]

They can offer a lot more than 2 FRP.

The Ingram idea is like..... semi plausible but also weird.

Ingram was just... OK this year.

And he would only stay in Utah for a max.

So now you're giving 60% of the salary cap to Ingram and Markkanen.

And Ingram should be your third best player but he needs to be your first option as he doesn't like deferring so you need superstar offball scorers and superstar defenders... And the Jazz have the star offball scorer, but they were the worst defensive team in NBA history...

So you need to get some defensive stars next to Ingram and Markkanen and then the cap starts to look extremely dicey.

Like, if you had a Gobert quality defender at center and a Jrue quality defender at PG, then this core looks great... Acquiring those two guys would be extremely hard and push the Jazz to the second apron with limited depth.

Acquiring Ingram himself is also hard as it probably requires a 3-5 team trade. You need to pay a team to take on John Collins' contract (which has to be sent out in this deal) and you need to send the picks to a third team willing to give up a player that fits better with Zion.

Ingram's defensive rating was 2 points off of Herb Jones while playing on the same team. The idea that he wasn't as good as Sexton is risible.

You can't be serious. That's a horrible statistic. There are many better measures for defensive impact than individual defensive rating.

[HadAnEffectHere]

Ingram obviously has the potential to be an average defender while Sexton has no upside to ever even reach the level of below average, but Ingram's defense has been extremely up and down in reality.

[theBigLip]

I'd like to see the Pistons add Ingram.

Ivey + Stewart + '24 1st [Pistons would have to draft who the Pelicans want], future 1st would probably be the offer.

Depending on where the Pistons pick lands, they could end up with a player like Sarr.

Pistons could certainly use him. Hard to give up all those assets if Ingram isn’t on a long term deal.

[pipfan]

Any interest in Lavine (buddies with Zion)? Lavine, #11 pick, Port pick. Not sure what else we could offer-maybe Caruso (and take out the Port pick then)

[TimeisIllmatic]

I'd like to see the Pistons add Ingram.

Ivey + Stewart + '24 1st [Pistons would have to draft who the Pelicans want], future 1st would probably be the offer.

Depending on where the Pistons pick lands, they could end up with a player like Sarr.

Pistons could certainly use him. Hard to give up all those assets if Ingram isn’t on a long term deal.

Definitely risky with his injury history and about to hit the market but he would be relied upon more for scoring which could be a selling point they can use to get him to sign long term.

At some point the Pistons can't keep drafting lottery guys every year.

[theBigLip]

I'd like to see the Pistons add Ingram.

Ivey + Stewart + '24 1st [Pistons would have to draft who the Pelicans want], future 1st would probably be the offer.

Depending on where the Pistons pick lands, they could end up with a player like Sarr.

Pistons could certainly use him. Hard to give up all those assets if Ingram isn’t on a long term deal.

Definitely risky with his injury history and about to hit the market but he would be relied upon more for scoring which could be a selling point they can use to get him to sign long term.

At some point the Pistons can't keep drafting lottery guys every year.

We can if we keep losing.

Seriously, we got $70M+ in cap space. That’s got to bring in some established players. If we can do that and stay healthy, I think we can make the play in, especially since we are in the East. Critical offseason. I’m actually rooting against the Pels vs Kings so they are motivated to make some moves - several of their players could help the Pistons, Pels are getting an expensive roster, and Pistons could just absorb someone. Rumors to be continued…