Give Spo Credit

[HIF]

You do have a hard time accepting other people's points of view don't you?

It must be difficult to be right all the time and other people not see that.

You make occasional good points but you ruin that with your wall to wall repetitive writing trying to put people down who simply disagree with your OPINION!!!

[GreenHat]

Again I agree with that and I said no one wins without great players. But that's the point. Its the players who matter not the coach. Spo hasn't won a playoff series without one of the greatest players of all time on his roster along with two other all stars. He has always had by far the best player in the series and usually the best two or three. He has always had the better team when he has won. Also you really can't compare this roster to rosters from the past because those teams had the league was less diluted then. Our roster is so much better than any other team in the league.

Is there someone here arguing that Spo is solely responsible for the 2 titles or that the players are less important than he is? I don't think so. I certainly am not.

Nice strawman. Did I accuse you of suggesting that Spo is solely responsible for the two titles? I don't think so. I certainly did not.

You know who else has never won a playoff series without one of the greatest players of all time on his roster? Phil Jackson. Pat Riley. Greg Popovich. And many others.

Those guys won a ton of playoff series without one of the greatest players of all time ALONG WITH two other star players. Isn't that what I said?

Less famous coaches have also won playoff series without even one of the greatest players of all time, let alone two other stars.

And it is debateable whether Spo always had the better team when he has won. It is pretty clear now that Durant, Westbrook and Harden are all top 10-15 players in this league. LeBron is better than Durant, but not by all that much. Durant is very solidly the second best player in the NBA. And that OKC team also had the league's best shotblocker, one of its best perimeter defenders, a true center and some other quality role players.
But even if Spo has always had the better team, it is also true that guys like Riley and Jackson also only when when they had the best players.

Are you one of those people who ignore defense? Having the league's best shot blocker and Thabo doesn't make them a great defense overall. And can we quit the literal definitions of players? Trying to imply that Kendrick Perkins is a positive because he is a "true center" is bull and you know it. Its like me calling Rashard Lewis a multiple time all-star or Juwan Howard one of the first 100 million dollar contracts. Its technically true but it means nothing and is intellectually dishonest.

Lebron is better than Durant and yes by all that much. Durant is very solidly the second best player in the NBA but its a very distant 2nd.

Same with Wade and Westbrook (last year).

The "took over a 15 win team and won 43" argument has been debunked several times. Wade got healthy, they weren't blatantly tanking and the minutes played composition was completely different.

Additionally if you want to make the argument that Spo's coaching led to that improvement you have to make the argument that Spo is a much better coach than Riley, the coach of that 15 win team. But again the difference wasn't the coach, it was the players.

That argument has not been debunked at all. It is a cold, hard fact. Absolutely indisputable. 43-15 = 28.

Sure, there are circumstances, reasons, explanations, etc. for it. There always are and there always will be. But if you have a problem with comparing Spo's 43 win team to riley's 15 win team the year earlier, then let's go back to Riley's 44 win team in 06-07. That team was clearly vastly more talented than Spo's 43 win team and won only 1 more game. It was essentially the same roster as the title team from the year before. It had prime Wade plus Shaq, who was a 22 and 9 guy per 36 minutes. Plus Mourning, JWill, Payton, Walker, Posey, EJones, etc. Yes, it had some injuries (as I said, there are always circumstances, reasons, and explanations for everything), but it was a better, more talented team than Spo had 2 years later. And it was pretty healthy by the playoffs and still got swept in humiliating fashion in the first round. Spo's 43 win team clearly put forth a better performance in the playoffs than the 06-07 team did.

Here you go again with your literalness. Yes we did go from 15 wins to 43 wins. But the minute breakdown was completely different so suggesting that the improvement came from replacing Riley with Spo is ridiculous and over looks the obvious "circumstances". Using that "logic" I guess Jordan is only worth two wins because the Bulls went from 57 wins to 55 wins when he first retired.

You really need to take more than a superficial look at the names on a roster. Jwill, Walker, Posey, Payton and EJ were below average players by then. Shaq and Wade played 3000 total minutes that season. In the Spo season Wade by himself played 3000 healthy minutes.

The team was only better if you look at the career stats of the players while ignoring age and injuries, instead of actually looking at the team and the minute breakdown. By why should we ignore obvious information?

As to your examples Wade is a better player (especially in that season) than any of those guys. Would you have traded Wade from that season for Pippen, Kobe, Mcgrady or David Thompson? I certainly wouldn't. Wade was much better. That season he had was up there for one of the best non-MJ seasons ever by a backcourt player.

This is pretty subjective and frankly not worth arguing about. Prime Kobe, McGrady and Pippen were pretty extraordinary players. Thompson's game was so well thought of by bball people that he got into the HOF despite playing only the equivalent of about 6.5 seasons in the NBA, several of which were marred by injuries and substance abuse. In his prime he was a pretty spectacular player.

I agree its not worth arguing over. But yeah I would take Wade from that year over all of them.

Your cutoff for "allstar" is arbitrary. For example, when Phil coached the Bulls to 55 wins in '93-'94 (No Jordan) B.J. Armstrong made the All-Star team by averaging 14/2/4 with horrible defense. Spo had several guys who played better than that (JO, Marion, even freaking Beasley and probably Haslem) they just weren't named all-stars. Those Heat teams had horrible offenses with good defenses. That isn't conducive to getting all-star nods.

I'm not sure why we are arguing about BJ Armstrong or the technicalities of all star voting, but no, JO, Haslem and Beasley were not better than BJ Armstrong that year.

Umm yes they were. Again Armstrong was 14/2/4 with HORRIBLE defense. JO was even far superior. We hate him because of the one series at the end but he had more of an impact than BJ Armstrong.

Also who are you counting as the allstar in '07-08 when Phil won 57 games?

This was his top 8 players by minutes

Kobe
Odom (not an all star)
Derek Fisher
Jordan Farmar
Sasha Vujacic
Vlad Radmanovic
Luke Walton
Ronny Turiaf

Bynum was hurt that year and they only got Gasol (not an allstar that season) at the end of the year. He played in only 27 games (less than 1000 minutes) but I believe they were in first before they traded for Gasol and that was in the much harder West rather than the easy East. By minutes played our roster is similar if not better and that Laker team won 57 games.

Gasol. They won 57 games, but that was largely because they went 22-4 in games in which Gasol played more than 3 minutes. When Gasol wasn't there, or effectively didn't play, they were 35-21, which is a 51 win pace over 82 games. Not a huge difference from Spo's 47 wins in his second year. And no, I don't think that Spo's 47 win team had a similar or better roster than that Kobe/Odom/Gasol/Bynum roster. Not even close.

Gasol was there for the last 26 games. Also that 51 win pace was in the West while Spo's was in the very weak East.

Again you take just a superficial look at the roster instead of looking at actual minutes.

Bynum got hurt and only played 35 games (1000 minutes) and Gasol came for the end of the season (918 minutes). So even together that's not even 2000 minutes. Its amazingly disingenuous to say Kobe/Odom/Gasol/Bynum when Gasol and Bynum played less than 2000 minutes combined and not together. You know who did play more than 2000 minutes? Derek freaking Fisher.

The team was more like Kobe/Odom/Fisher/Walton/Farmar/Radman/Turiaf

Larry Brown also won a title with a team that we wouldn't trade our 3rd best player for anyone on their roster and they beat a juggernaut team to do it. He also went to the finals with Allen Iverson (nowhere near as good as Wade) and a bunch of journeymen. Let's look at his top guys by minutes:

Iverson
Aaron Mckie
Tyrone Hill
George Lynch
Theo Ratliff (got hurt)
Eric Snow

Those were the only guys who played even 1000 minutes. They traded for Mutumbo for the last 20-something games after Ratliff got hurt. But again looking at the actual minutes breakdown its not much better (if it is even better) than those Wade teams. And they won 56 games and made the finals.

And Larry Brown is a very good, if not great, coach. And he did a great job with that 56 win team in Philly, but that was just one out of 30 years coaching at the professional level and several others at the major college level. We are comparing that to Spo's first 2 years coaching at any level. And while Brown had some other good teams, it ain't like he won 56 every year in the NBA, or even very year with Iverson. He also had 31, 43, 48 and 49 win seasons in Philly with Iverson. the 56 win season was the aberration, not the norm.

Iverson would be the fourth best player on this team. That's the difference. And I agree that Spo can prove himself over the next couple of decades. He can even improve a lot. Who knows. The point is he hasn't done it yet. He might show tank hard after Lebron retires or he might start another dynasty with a new lot of players.

And if you want to be strict about the one star wing and no other all stars, then Thibs won 62 games with Rose (not as good as Wade) and no other allstars. Vogel was on a 52 win pace in the lockout year with Granger (not as good as Wade) and no other allstars. Carlisle won 50+ with a variety of one star teams one of which featured Jerry Stackhouse (nowhere near as good as Wade) and no other allstars.

You are taking the All Star thing more literally than I intended. I apologize for the lack of clarity. I wasn't being specific about whether a guy was actually voted in the specific year at issue. I was referring to guys who were All Star level players and/or were All Stars someowhere within a year or two of then. So the 62-win Thibs team had Rose, Boozer (a year removed from being a 17.5 and 9.6 guy and 2 years fremoved from being a 19.5 and 11.2 guy), Deng (All star the following 2 seasons) and Noah (All Star in '13).

Vogel's lockout team also had Hibbert, who was an All star that year, as well as George who was in All star the next season, as well as David west who has gone to a few all star games and is still a pretty darn good player. All 3 of those guys are much better than anyone else (besides Wade) on Spo's first 2 Heat teams.

You're cherry picking years here. This guy two seasons later, the guy before one season ago, this other guy's career, this guy is gosh darn good.

Winning 40 something games with one of the best players in the league is not a huge feather in the cap.

Whether it is a feather in the cap or not, as indicated, that is about what the elite coaches do with just one elite wing player. Sure, there have been some positive exceptions, like Brown's 56 wins with Iverson surrounded by 31, 43, 48 and 49 win seasons. Or maybe Phil's 51 win pace before getting Gasol after several years of win totals in the 40s. But nobody is arguing that Spo is the greatest coach of all time or that those first 2 seasons were the greatest coaching jobs in NBA history.

The point is that those years were about slightly above average performances so they shouldn't be held up as anything special or evidence of greatness.

You mentioned good coaching repeatedly but who is arguing Spo isn't a good coach? I'm not.

That's a relief. You have put an extraordinary amount of time belittling everything and enything Spo has done. I'm sorry, I must have misconstrued your incessant criticism as an indication that you don't think he is very good. This is a thread titled "Give Spo Credit" the premise of which is that some people don't seem to want to give him any. You seem to be the leader fo that band.

It only comes off as incessant criticism because I am arguing against his inclusion as a top 3 coach. That's what the argument has been this whole thread, regardless of the title. I have called him above average on a multitude of occasions. That's some really deep criticism. I've given him tons of credit I just argued against things like him being a top 3 coach or having as much value to the team as Bosh.

All those things you mentioned seem to be on the players not the coach. You also mentioned not losing 2 games in a row. We also went almost a month not winning two games in a row either, which is ridiculous with this roster especially in the playoffs.

There is nothing ridiculous about it. The Heat was playing 2 very good teams that had a few matchups that posed problems for the Heat and were playing with the effort and desperation that the playoffs bring.

That Indiana team was not "very good". And yes it is ridiculous to not be able to win 2 games in a row for a month with this team.

You are really reaching here. This is not the era of super teams. This is the era of the internet so teams get hyped as super teams.

This team did not overcome the Boston Big 3. This team almost lost to the Boston Old 3 that wasn't that good (3 SRS). One of those guys joined our team and joined the bench. And those guys aren't as good as ours.

This team did over come the Boston Big 3, which was really much more like a big 4 with Rondo. That Boston team lost in the finals in 7 games the year before and won 56 games the next year. It was a damn good team. and the Heat beat them in the playoffs each of the first 2 years of the Big 3 era.

They had an average age in the mid 30s with a lot of miles on them. They were not good last year. They were pretty good the year before but FAR from a super team.

We can agree to disagree about the super teams and whether that is hype or real.

I can agree to that but like I said you really try to stretch these teams into super teams.

I love how you don't want to call Boozer what he is so you just call him a "max pf". Does Amare count as a max pf too? Does Brandon Roy count as a max SG for Portland? I'm sure New Jersey is Glad they have a max SG in Joe Johnson. Also the Bulls never really had the team you described together at the same time. As Noah became better Rose got hurt. That Bulls team we beat this year was far from a superteam. And Rose did not deserve the MVP it was just Lebron backlash. Our guys are better than them.

Yes, those guys are max guys. We acan argue about whether they should be, but they are. Boozer, Amare and Johnson were all very productive players for many years before they got their max contracts. And nobody is arguing the Bulls team we beat this year was a superteam. Talk about straw men . . .

Who cares how much money they were wrongfully being paid? Why don't we focus on their actual ability the year we are talking about. You keep trying to paint these other teams as better than they are by harping on how much the player got paid, how big a name the guy is or how productive they were in the past or the future. Let's focus on the actual year and how many minutes they played in it and how healthy they were.

By the way you explain the teams I thought you were calling the Bulls a superteam this year.

We never played the Kobe/Gasol/Bynum team. They were beat by a decidedly not super team. And last years Lakers looks good on paper but Nash and Kobe were old and Dwight and Gasol can't play at the same time. Our guys are better than them.

You mean we never played them in the playoffs. We did play them in the regular season 5 times over the last 3 seasons (including the Nash/Dwight version). And the Heat won 4 of them, all by healthy margins.

Yes of course I meant the playoffs. Why would I be talking about a handful of regular season games spread out over 3 seasons? In that case look at Thibs against the Heat even with all of their injuries they've held their own in the regular season.

The Clippers can't play defense at all and if you're second best player is Blake Griffin you are from from a super team. Bosh is better than him (including defense).

The Clippers can't play defense at all? Seriously? Uh, they had the 4th best defense in the NBA this past year in terms of pts allowed and were top 10 in FG% allowed too. When you combine that with the fact they forced more turnovers than any other team in the NBA, your claim that they "can't play defense at all" shoots right to the top of the list of the dopeyist statements ever written on this board.

Sorry points allowed is a horrible defensive metric. Stop using it.

The only facet of defense that the Clippers are even above average is in turnover creation. I was speaking towards their ability to guard without fouling and in the realm of superteams. They can't get stops against good teams.

Can't play defense at all was obviously hyperbole but as I said they are only good at one facet of defense and it doesn't help as much against the better teams.

The OKC team was really good. No argument here.

The Knicks and Nets? Come on. I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

After seeing your statement about the Clippers defense, I was expecting to see you claim that OKC was a terrible team with no talented players at all. I am relieved to see that is not the case.

The Knicks and Nets were good teams. They may not have played up to their talent levels, but they are good teams nonetheless.

No the Knicks and Nets were not good teams. Stop it. Especially when you brought them up in a discussion of SUPERTEAMS. If they count as superteams, what are we?

Everyone wants to keep Lebron out of the paint but no one else played that far off of him since... Pop did it to him the last time they played in the finals. Its "so obvious" but no other coach has done it in all these years.

Ultimately, it was a losing strategy. Pops got away with it for a while because LeBron forgot how good he was at those shots and kept passing them up.

Sorry I don't play the result like that. If we trade Lebron for Carmelo and Lebron breaks his leg the next day I'm not going to say it was a smart trade. It was a strategy that almost won a championship for a badly overmatched underdog in 6 games. How much more can you ask from an out manned coach?

Also only simpletons who play the result were blaming Vogel or Pop for not having Hibbert or Duncan in there on those last plays. Those same people would be the first ones to blame Vogel/Pop if the smaller player those guys were guarding got open on a screen or a switch. It was a smart move to take the big guys out when we went small for last possesions.

I understand why they did it, but I wouldn't say they were smart moves. They were calculated gambles that blew up in their face. And Pops also had his strange substitutions involving Manu and Parker.

I think it was the smartest move. Further Spo would have done the same thing if a team went small against him. No team is leaving a center in the game for a last shot when the other team has all quick guys who can hit the three out there. Parker was hurt and couldn't get anything on Lebron. I can see why he wanted to play the live ball against our defense rather than let us set up. (Or are you referring to something else?)

You credit the Spurs players for the execution. But both our offense and our defense only work because our players can execute them at a level that no other team can. What was so magical about what Spo did? Lebron just bails him out in every elimination game by having a huge game and being able to guard everyone.

Magical? Who said anything about magical? Of course you need players who can execute. All coaches do. but that doesn't mean that every coach gets the same level of execution out of a particular group of players.

Well if we're in agreement that Spo doesn't have some kind of special impact then I don't know what the argument is. I think a handful of coaches could have done the same thing and certainly more than 2 (again my whole argument is against top 3)

Which again goes to the point that its the greatness of the players who win not the coaches. Which is why winning when you have the best players isn't that big of an accomplishment and should not be used as evidence that a coach is one of the best. I said the same thing when Phil was on the Bulls and those Shaq teams.

Again, there is no dispute that the greatness fo the players matters most. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. You seem to be trying to populate the earth with hordes of crazed straw men.

Look through this thread. One of the better posters was arguing that Spo had similar impact to Bosh. The whole point is the rings don't mean as much in terms of coaching ability if you have by far the best team. As Spo himself said many guys could have done his job with these players. I agree with Spo. Again I don't think he is bad, just not a top 3 coach.

You just pointed out if Lebron plays well we win and if Lebron plays bad we lose. So how much effect does Spo have? He seems to not make much of a difference (like most coaches). I'm pretty sure Lebron doesn't play well just because Spo asks either. It seems plenty of coaches could win when Lebron plays like Lebron. Spo himself has said a lot more coaches could do his job than could screw it up. I agree with Spo.

I usually only have a long reply for incredibly stupid post or good, well reasoned ones. I consider your post to be the latter even though I disagree with it. That is why I wanted to give it a very thorough reply.

So who in your mind are the great coaches? Have there ever been any? Please list a few. I'll have a lot of fun playing "sniper" with any list you provide and I expect tobe able to recycle 96.6% of the arguments you have made against Spo against virtually anyone you list.

I think coaches matter far less than others do and I'm consistent with that. My analogy has always been the neighborhood drag race. Spo has the fastest car. As long as he keeps it on the road it should win. That's how I think of most coaches.

Playing "sniper" with your list of superteams like the Knicks and Nets wasn't fun by any means. But hope you enjoy this. Not sure how you are going to be able to recycle "hasn't even won a playoff series without one of the best players of all time and two other actual star players in their prime" for a guy like Phil Jackson but go ahead.

I don't really have a ranking but since my argument these years has been not top 3 I'll list enough to keep him out. Jackson, Carlisle, Thibs and Vogel are all guys I would take over Spo right now. I think all four of those guys would have at least 2 rings and 170 wins over these last 3 years.

But as I said coaching doesn't really matter in terms of winning a title, the players do. You just have to keep it on the road if you have the fastest car.

[GreenHat]

You do have a hard time accepting other people's points of view don't you?

It must be difficult to be right all the time and other people not see that.

You make occasional good points but you ruin that with your wall to wall repetitive writing trying to put people down who simply disagree with your OPINION!!!

Wait I'm the one who puts people down? You're the king of ad hominem attacks.

And no don't worry most of the times people see it so its not hard at all.

I don't care if people disagree with me, especially if they have a good reason. In fact since my whole argument over this whole thread was not top 3 I don't even think this guy disagrees with me.

Edit- And yes if I will answer a post that addresses my whole post by addressing their whole post. I think if someone took the time to create a reply, they deserve a thorough reply. It's not about being right. There is no actual coach ranking. Its stating my OPINION!!! and explaining it as best I can. Also glad you can finally concede I make occasional good points. Coming from you I'll take that as a huge compliment.

[RexBoyWonder]

[HIF]

Greenhat will you give me permission to put together a book using only your posts that I can sell as an ebook. I promise I won't make it a paperback as we'd need to cut down the amazon forest for that.

Are the words "precise" and "summary" missing from your dictionary?

[GreenHat]

I'm working and have someone to type for me. While it seems like a lot when you type it, its really not a lot to say.

And like I said if someone takes the time to reply to my post thoroughly I will return the favor (I consider it polite in a weird way)

If anything I am overly precise. Summaries are bad for discussion. I prefer people who will read every line. This guy apparently did last post, which is great. I welcome dissent. Makes work fly by.

[HIF]

I'm working and have someone to type for me. While it seems like a lot when you type it, its really not a lot to say.

And like I said if someone takes the time to reply to my post thoroughly I will return the favor (I consider it polite in a weird way)

If anything I am overly precise. Summaries are bad for discussion. I prefer people who will read every line. This guy apparently did last post, which is great. I welcome dissent. Makes work fly by.

It's cool that you have a PA dedicated to typing your ramblings on real GM.

If it's a woman she probably loves me. If it's a guy he may love you

I agree that you write a lot but don't have a lot to say j/k

I will forevermore smile at the thought of your PA typing your future posts on here.

[GreenHat]

Ha not so much a PA but when work is slow (its 6 am here, one call has come in during the last hour) I can have them do whatever I want. They are getting paid anyway.

Typing up ramblings aren't even that high up on the list of ridiculous things I have done.

If you really want to see a stupid argument check the Jordan thread on the General Board. I'm arguing with a Bulls mod about whether Jordan was a dick or not. He's using the battered woman defense.

[Duane]

I think the opposite about the series. I had Spo much closer to Pop going into the series.

Spo had the much better team and needed a miracle shot to not lose in 6 games. Pop's strategy to play off of Lebron and Wade was great and his adjustments to our adjustments were insightful. For example when Miller (who had zero points in 3/4 of his starts) was in Pop started using Miller's man for picks for Parker knowing that we would switch to get Miller covering Parker. Or when we only had one big guy in they would have the guy he was guarding set an extra high pick so that our only rim protection would be perimeter guys. I could go on and on.

When times were desperate at the end we just put Lebron on Parker to slow down their offense. That's something every coach would do, and most would do it sooner. The difference is they don't have a Lebron to do that while we do.

No bad team has one a title because players matter a lot more than coaches. That kind of hurts the RINGZ argument because when Spo has one he has had by far the best players.

I think u see what u want to see. Ur pretty heavily entrenched in ur position and won't budge no matter how sensible the argument.

I edited to remove some unnecessary and snarky comments. My apologies.

Why would I want to see Spo get outcoached? I want Spo to be the best coach of all time. You're argument for Spo coming out over Pop came with no evidence at all. Why would I budge for that?

Make a good argument for that other than he ended up winning (barely and with the better team) and I will read and consider every word.

There are 400+ posts in this thread spanning most of a year. U pretend u will change ur stance, but u won't. Spo had won two rings since this debate has started with u (we all know this isn't the first thread) and u haven't budged an inch. Why should anyone expect u to change ur stance now?

Frankly, there's nothing more Spo can do from a career standpoint than win the championship, and his team had battled for 3 straight and won b2b. Ur the dishonest broker in this deal. This thread has become a testament to ur obtuseness. I believe that's why pimpwerx swore to bump this thread relentlessly, because he knew u were never going to change no matter the mountain of evidence. Fact remains there are fewer coaches in history with more hardware now, yet u wound probably claim there are more in this league alone who are better.

Btw, the lack of evidence remains firmly with u. No reliable metrics to support ur ever-worsening claims. Ur no more a coach than any of us, so it's not like u have some personal knowledge of what makes a coach good or bad. All the while, Spo's accolades pile up, including compliments from actual ma nba coaches. U say u want Spo to be great? Bull-bleeping-bleep. Sell that snake oil somewhere else. Ur his most vocal detractor by volume of text alone. Ur claims and ur actions are incongruent and u should probably stop pretending ur intentions are benign. We're not idiots.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll claim reading comprehension again, but that's been ur cover for a while now. I'll grant u that I don't read half of what u post, but it's not necessary to know exactly what ur saying.

[DeeDub]

I think coaches matter far less than others do and I'm consistent with that. My analogy has always been the neighborhood drag race. Spo has the fastest car. As long as he keeps it on the road it should win. That's how I think of most coaches.

Playing "sniper" with your list of superteams like the Knicks and Nets wasn't fun by any means. But hope you enjoy this. Not sure how you are going to be able to recycle "hasn't even won a playoff series without one of the best players of all time and two other actual star players in their prime" for a guy like Phil Jackson but go ahead.

I don't really have a ranking but since my argument these years has been not top 3 I'll list enough to keep him out. Jackson, Carlisle, Thibs and Vogel are all guys I would take over Spo right now. I think all four of those guys would have at least 2 rings and 170 wins over these last 3 years.

But as I said coaching doesn't really matter in terms of winning a title, the players do. You just have to keep it on the road if you have the fastest car.

I'm not going to continue to beat a dead horse on most of the arguments in your last post. Since you believe coaches matter so little and your response as to which coaches are better is based on nothing more than speculation as to what those coaches would do in a situation they haven't been in and never will be in, there's not too much to say. But here goes:

First, your 170 win/2 titles standard doesn't mean those guys are better than spo, as that is what Spo has done the last 3 years (plus an extra Finals appearance).

Second, almost all of the arguments you make against Spo are equally applicable to Jackson. He never won without the best player. He never won without the fastest racecar. When he had one great wing player and not much else he won roughly the same number of games that Spo won in a similar situation. Of course, Jackson did that after having many years of experience coaching in the NBA and with teams that he himelf had been coaching for many years. Spo's Wade-only years were his first 2 as a head coach at any level. Jackson's 11 titles are incredible, but don't you think there are a lot of other coaches that could have won titles with those same teams? Surely Jackson isn't the only guy who could win with Jordan/Pippen or Shaq/Kobe or Kobe/Gasol/Odom/Bynum.

Third, with regard to Thibs and Vogel all we have seen from them are slowdown offenses and physical, but not really turnover-forcing defenses. While it hasn't happened, so we can't say for sure, there is a very significant question as to whether they could get the most out of this Heat team. I think it is fair to say that playing such a grind it out slowdown style is not a good fit for this Heat team. We also don't know what those coaches can/would do without an elite defensive center. Joel Anthony is a good defender but a very different type of defender than Hibbert and also pretty different from Noah. What have you seen in Vogel or Thibs to suggest that either would be a good fit for the talent mix that the Heat has? Is there anything to suggest that they can coach a team to play any different style or a faster paced offense? Maybe they can, but I don't think there is any actual evidence to suggest that.

And again, let's not pretend that Thibs and Vogel have had to do it without any talent. Rose, Noah, Deng, Hibbert, George and Granger have all been All Stars over the last several years. Boozer and West have also been to multiple All Star games. They are both conventionally constructed teams with top 10 centers

Carlisle is a good coach and has shown some more versatility in the styles that his teams have played. But he's been coaching for 11 seasons and has just one finals appearance. He's had some good teams as well as some mediocre/bad ones. When he left Detroit, the team was better the following year and won the title. And when he got to Dallas, the team went from an average of 59 wins per year over the previous 3 years under Avery Johnson (now unemployed) to 50 wins in Carlisle's first season. Similarly, he left Indiana after a 35 win season and the team won 36 the next year under Jim O'Brien (now unemployed). Carlisle had a nice playoff run with the Mavs in 2010-11, but it was hardly due to "magical" coaching (if that si the standard being applied to Spo).

And coming back to Spo, while he has had great talent when all of the Big 3 have been healthy and playing, that has not always been the case. This past season, Spo went 5-1 without LeBron, 11-2 without Wade and 8-0 without Bosh. He was 4-1 in games without both Wade and LeBron, including a win against the Spurs in SA. That is pretty solid performance for a racecar missing significant pieces from its engine.

[Heatin4]

Under the guidance of Emperor Riley, Spo has undoubtedly if you consider all his accolades and awards he has gained in his short Coaching career , Eric Spoelstra is to be considered a Top 5 Coach in the game today. No disputing this!!

[twix2500]

We have all watch Spo evolve and his scheme (not Riley even thou very influenced by) has worked. Not only he has proved that his scheme work, but we all witness him learn how to play the chess game with his scheme against the best.