How good is Norris Cole?

HeatDaChamps · Post #41 » by **HeatDaChamps** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:48 pm

Maybe one day we will have a role player that can do more than one thing. Im not sure if this is by design or just how it ended up being. If wade or lebron arent on the court, nobody knows what to do. We've manged to turn a borderline star big man to a 3 point specialist that just stands out there and waits for the ball to get to him.

Im glad we may have a clean slate this summer, this team needs to retool. We've reached the end of our run with this team. Whether we win this year or now, who knows. It will be harder than ever, we are relying on a bunch of players that are past their prime. Ray, Battier, arguably wade, and a bosh who somehow cant get touches in this offense.

The real discussion shouldnt be about Norris Cole, it should be about how this team which supposedly had so much depth looks like it cant even go 9 deep. The reason beasley isnt on the floor is because hes not reliable. He doesnt work in this system not because he strays from the description of the role player we want (fits one specific role) but its because he strays from the team concept that we preach.

As talented as anyone is, if you dont play within the team concept we have integrated, you're not going to play. Norris cole is awful but he still does it. Point is, we need some role players that can do more than one thing but still play team ball.

dolphinatik · Post #42 » by **dolphinatik** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:00 pm

Patrick Beverly is a great example of how its hard to evaluate pg in our system. When he played for us there was way more bashing and Beverly sucks comments than Cole is getting but as you can see Beverly is just fine when he is allowed to play to his strengths. Cole is no scrub, finished as a Wooden award finalist in college he was kind of like James Ennis a guy who could score defend and help his team in a variety of ways. Its got to be hard to be a pg or role player on a team like Miami where you are expected to pass it to Lebron or Wade and get the hell out of the way. If you are lucky u get a hoist of three point shots from the corner and while not a three point specialist you will still get bashed by fans for missing threes.

As HeadDaChamp posts he discussion should be about the team. I believe many on this roster can do more than one thing but its the design of our system that limits the potential of our productivity on the court. In any case last game was wierd that JJ got so much run. Im curious what that really means. I always knew he was a capable player and never really understood why he gets so many dnp but why now?

NBA82 · Post #43 » by **NBA82** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:12 pm

Beverley never played a single regular season minute for us. I think it's kind of disingenuous to act like he was a failure in our system. He never got a real chance to play in our system. We just didn't have a roster spot for an inexperienced back-up point guard at that point in time.

Our problem isn't that our system limits our role players. It's that our role players aren't capable of filling their roles right now. For instance, we need role players to space the floor for LeBron and Wade. Whether or not they can create off the dribble doesn't really matter -- we don't need that. That's what LeBron and Wade do. So when our role players (Cole, Battier) can't hit open 3s, they're not filling their role.

And for what it's worth, I don't think Cole has really shown an ability to create much in his limited opportunities. It's not like he's excelling in his tiny bubble and we need to be giving him more rope. He's been awful in every regard. In fact, spot up shooting might be what he does best on offense -- and he's not a particularly good spot-up shooter.

SweetTouch · Post #44 » by **SweetTouch** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:35 pm

I see the myth of Beverley continues to exist

You would think this guy is out there winning titles or some

Post #45 » by **IggieCC** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:48 pm

I agree with NBA82. The system isn't making Cole miss all those layups that most of small quick guards in the league are making and supposed to be making.

I truly believe that his ceiling is not very high if not reached yet. Or, he is grossly mismanaging his time at practice. Do not spend 50 layups and 50 jump shots and 20 minutes of dribble drills. Focus on one aspect of the game until you get really good at it. He is no Chris Paul so I don't expect him to do everything right. However, if he can't seem to do anything right, I don't know if his defense alone really merits his time on the court.

But heck, Spo surely doesn't agree with me so I give up. Just don't mess up Cole!

WD · Post #46 » by WD » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:49 pm

dolphinatik wrote:Patrick Beverly is a great example of how its hard to evaluate pg in our system. When he played for us there was way more bashing and Beverly sucks comments than Cole is getting but as you can see Beverly is just fine when he is allowed to play to his strengths. Cole is no scrub, finished as a Wooden award finalist in college he was kind of like James Ennis a guy who could score defend and help his team in a variety of ways. Its got to be hard to be a pg or role player on a team like Miami where you are expected to pass it to Lebron or Wade and get the hell out of the way. If you are lucky u get a hoist of three point shots from the corner and while not a three point specialist you will still get bashed by fans for missing threes.

As HeadDaChamp posts he discussion should be about the team. I believe many on this roster can do more than one thing but its the design of our system that limits the potential of our productivity on the court. In any case last game was wierd that JJ got so much run. Im curious what that really means. I always knew he was a capable player and never really understood why he gets so many dnp but why now?

I have learned to accept those things I cannot change...

Post #47 » by **DefenseWins** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:31 am

wm3 wrote:He played great at the beginning of the season & really improved in every aspect...Then the past 2 months came & he was easily the worst Heat player on the floor. If he continues to play like he did today & earlier in the season consistently then I would agree he can be a starting PG on any team in the league

Pretty much this

Cole I think is a good player. Maybe a little too shoot happy, but when he is having a good game, I want him out on the floor.

The past few months though he has been AWFUL. The thing is, I am not sure if all of it has been his fault entirely.Things like that 2-PG line up make Rio and Cole look even more worse than they actually are. HAVING BOTH of those guys out there is not good. Our PG's have to be surrounded by the Big 3 and a random vet (Shane, UD, Ray, etc). Cole's game is fast-paced, when he runs the floor and surrounded by the Big 3, he has done well.

I have this theory that the 2-guard line up just makes them both (Rio and Cole) crappy, and if Cole continues to strive in the playoffs with our Big 3 every game, again it's not entirely his fault. The system can have flaws too.

Sorkoram · Post #48 » by **Sorkoram** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:17 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs50WjRC7[/youtube]

Last season's playoffs told me all I needed to know about Norris, he is a gamer.

SweetTouch · Post #49 » by **SweetTouch** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:30 am

Let's check the great Beverley stats this postseason

Oh wait

quinninin · Post #50 » by **quinninin** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:19 am

Nba82 Jon Barry just called cole one of the best on ball defenders in the nba, still think he is one of the worst rotation players in the nba?

number1joker · Post #51 » by **number1joker** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:41 am

for being a late 1st round pick he's about average

basketball in Miami · Post #52 » by **basketball in Miami** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:06 pm

hes a decent PG. pesky defender. his game is still developing. its his third year in the NBA.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

NBA82 · Post #53 » by **NBA82** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:23 pm

quinninin wrote:Nba82 Jon Barry just called cole one of the best on ball defenders in the nba, still think he is one of the worst rotation players in the nba?

Uh, yes. This is statistically verifiable, it's not just my opinion.

Kendrick Perkins is one of the best post defenders in the NBA. He's also one of the worst rotation players in the NBA.

And Cole is only one of the best on-ball defenders in the NBA against undersized, ultra-quick point guards. It's a pretty niche skill.

quinninin · Post #54 » by **quinninin** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:20 pm

NBA82 wrote:
quinninin wrote:Nba82 Jon Barry just called cole one of the best on ball defenders in the nba, still think he is one of the worst rotation players in the nba?

Uh, yes. This is statistically verifiable, it's not just my opinion.

Kendrick Perkins is one of the best post defenders in the NBA. He's also one of the worst rotation players in the NBA.

And Cole is only one of the best on-ball defenders in the NBA against undersized, ultra-quick point guards. It's a pretty niche skill.

You quote per like it's the end all be all of stats, but it really has it's limitations. Especially when usuage is one of the factors that adds to it. Any player on the miami heat not named lebron, dwayne and bc have low usuage stats.

Also per doesn't calculate defense, and defense is like 50% of basketball, or is defense not important to you?

NBA82 · Post #55 » by **NBA82** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:41 pm

And yet every player on the Heat isn't at the bottom of the league in PER, value added, and estimated wins added. Birdman, for example, has a very high PER. Chalmers' is fine. Even Toney Douglas's is higher than Cole's.

And like I said, his defense isn't that good with the exception of niche situations. For the season, we allowed 107.4 points per 100 possessions with Norris Cole on the bench, and 106.8 points per 100 possessions with him on the court. So over the course of a typical game, his defense makes less than 1 point of difference. There's something to be said for a guy who can plug into your D without submarining the team, but it's not enough when he's so terrible on offense.

As an example, Tayshaun Prince and Kendrick Perkins are other awful offensive players with terrible PERs who get run for their defense. Both make more than twice the impact defensively that Cole does. And both guys still stink and are undoubtedly the weakest links on their respective teams.

Post #56 » by **IggieCC** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:16 pm

I still have my doubts about Cole, but I will admit that he has been playing at a high level in the playoffs.

Part of me doesn't even want him to shoot (esp. jump shots) most of the time, but then the team will be forced to play 4 on 5 on offense, so I am just going to root for him to be as successful as he can be.

One thing that he has without a doubt is confidence, a little too much for my liking, but whatever, keep playing the right way with confidence Cole!

What this team is trying to do is way too important for us to be really negative/down on one particular player or two. We need everyone to play at a high level. So far, so good!

NBA82 · Post #57 » by **NBA82** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:41 pm

Oh yeah, I should probably add that Cole has been very solid so far in the playoffs. This has nothing to do with his playoff performance thus far. If he maintains this level of play, who cares about his regular season.

gom · Post #58 » by **gom** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:44 pm

He is guaranteed through 2014-2015. This will be the make or break year for him.

dolphinatik · Post #59 » by **dolphinatik** » Tue Jul 1, 2014 10:37 pm

Never forget Norris Cole

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TjAjMZz7_o[/youtube]

not sure what people are expecting Kyle Lowry to bring us. Sure he vastly improved his shooting but I just dont see the hype. Im still a Cole fan and think he is a player in this league.

GreenHat · Post #60 » by **GreenHat** » Wed Jul 2, 2014 4:18 am

SweetTouch wrote:Let's check the great Beverley stats this postseason

Oh wait

What's your point?

He played 6 games and shot poorly. Still was probably better than Cole overall.

Judging a player by 6 games is not a good idea. 6 games into Cole's career people were making Big 4 comments on this board because his jumpshot was falling at an unsustainable rate.

Edit- Sorry didn't realize this was an old thread that got bumped.