Off-Season Thread 17: New Beginnings #HEATLifers

[Maroko]

Spoiler:

Dwyane Bosh

When I look at Wade's face on Bosh's body, he kinda looks like a soft player/someone who would get pushed around. He has an innocent face.

With Bosh's face on Wade's body, he looks like the kind of player that does a lot of trash talking. Try to picture it.

The season needs to start already.

Was wondering if we signed Lance Stephenson's brother

You just blow my joke

[Seabass777]

[instagram]http://instagram.com/p/tYZWu2kMmF/[/instagram]

Wade zero gravity.

[Maroko]

Spoiler:

[instagram]http://instagram.com/p/tYZWu2kMmF/[/instagram]

Wade zero gravity.

Dwyane BANE Wade

[GreenHat]

2011 was on the same level offensively even though it didn't look as pretty.

Ortg is points per possession. Sorry I will take that over your eye test.

The fact is that in our first year we scored 111.7 points per 100 possessions and after our transformation into a "Spurs like" offense we became a "true offensive monster" that scored 112.3 points per game.

To even argue that they weren't on the same level is baffling. It is revisionist history to say our offense greatly improved from the first season.

Before the 12 playoffs we were still good offensively but our ball movement was nowhere as good as 2013.

The point here is clear. We had a good Ortg but no offensive system and our offense was mostly give the ball to Wade/LeBron and get out of the way. It's really similar to the Thunder right now who are always a top offense in the league and struggle in the playoffs because they have no real offensive system. Our offense did great improve from 2011 to 2013. We had an offensive system in place, we knew everything was going to run through LeBron and then Wade in the post, we knew we were always going to spread the floor with shooters, we knew we were going to use Bosh as a floor-spacer. All those things were designed by Spo and did create an "offensive monster".

Arguing for the sake of arguing looks petty and you continue to do that. We all are acknowledging that yes, we had a good Ortg in 2011 but anyone could see we were not running a system and relied on sheer talent. 2013 is worlds better for that reason and as others have pointed by then we had everyone playing to fit LeBron. This is my last response on this matter since it seems like you are arguing a position to hold on to it. I know we had a good Ortg in 2011 and don't deny that but I wouldn't call any iso-offense no matter how highly rated effective or good.

Except it was good and effective. The facts bear that out.

You are greatly influenced by a six game sample at the end of the season where Lebron played poorly and we didn't hit open threes like we did against the Thunder.

My point was that this huge difference in effectiveness is narrative driven and you're rebuttal is the same narrative. You're the one arguing a position to hold on to it.

[GreenHat]

In 2010/2011 was still a more impactful player than in the following year. It is not just about our offensive numbers improving, it is about our offense becoming harder to stop against different defensive schemes. Your offensive ratings can be high during the regular season when teams don't game plan as much for you and your individual talent carries you. Once the playoffs roll around, it'll be all the more about offensive versatility and that's the key difference between the first year and the following years.

Random fluctuations of small sample sizes explain the differences more than this created offensive versatility narrative. The only defense we really struggled against that year was Chicago and that was an all time great defense. Even against Dallas we did fairly well considering how poorly Lebron played. We did much better against them then we did against the Spurs this year and about the same as the year we beat the Spurs.

The evidence for this offensive transformation is usually given by the Thunder series. But the spike was fueled by unsustainable three point shooting by a couple of our guys (which didn't hold up). That's also ignoring that the Thunder weren't really a good defensive team.

The difference in offensive effectiveness from that first year has been greatly exaggerated. The biggest difference between the Mavs series and the Thunder series was our shooting on wide open threes.

You're still just going by the numbers without putting them into context. Again: Wade was never as good as he was in 2010/2011 during the Big Three era. That plays a major role in our offensive ratings. His per 36 numbers might be similar, but he simply wasn't on the court as much. The fact that we maintained a similar/had a slightly better ORtg is partially due to better role players but also due to better offensive execution.

Does that make us a significantly better basketball team? Who knows, the star power we had in 2010/2011 has never been matched in any seasons after that. But it still can be noted that our execution improved greatly.

I agree that Wade was better that year and played more minutes.

My point is if we hit wide open threes at the same rate we did against the Thunder or Lebron has a big series or Dirk twists his ankle then no one would be complaining about the offense the first year.

People are making this out to be a huge difference because we lost the first year and then right after "the change" we won a title with an offense driven by unsustainable three point shooting (which we were not able to sustain).

Its just like with the Spurs in the previous season. They outplayed us but we won so everyone was over confident in our chances against them this season. I try to not put as much stock in such small samples because nearly anything could happen in a 7 game series and narratives that are retroactively created to explain the fluctuations of a small sample are usually wildly exaggerated.

[PaulieWal]

Except it was good and effective. The facts bear that out.

You are greatly influenced by a six game sample at the end of the season where Lebron played poorly and we didn't hit open threes like we did against the Thunder.

My point was that this huge difference in effectiveness is narrative driven and you're rebuttal is the same narrative. You're the one arguing a position to hold on to it.

Before the 12 playoffs we were still good offensively but our ball movement was nowhere as good as 2013.

Reread that at least 5 times before you reply again because I am not even sure what you are arguing anymore. Are you saying our ball movement was as good as it was in 2013? Are you disagreeing with the fact that we had an actual offensive system in 2013? Are you disagreeing with the fact that we had figured out our strengths and specific roles for the Big 3?

If you are not disagreeing with any of that we are not disagreeing on anything. You seem to be stuck with your own narrative. I am not being swayed by the Finals. I am being swayed by our RS results. Do you remember how much we struggled in the close games that year compared to 13 & 14? Our record in 2011 against teams in clutch situations was pretty bad. We won 58 games on sheer talent of James/Wade/Bosh. I am not arguing anything, I am simply saying our offense was better in 2013 because we had a system in place and ball movement + defined roles. Simple as that. You keep on arguing for the sake of arguing.

Edit: Even if we did win in 2011 that wouldn't change my view of our offense that year. It would probably validate the offense in your eyes but eventually Spo had to get LeBron to play more 4 offensively and I don't think we would experience the success we did in 12/13 without revamping our offense and designing everything around him with an actual system.

[GreenHat]

Except it was good and effective. The facts bear that out.

You are greatly influenced by a six game sample at the end of the season where Lebron played poorly and we didn't hit open threes like we did against the Thunder.

My point was that this huge difference in effectiveness is narrative driven and you're rebuttal is the same narrative. You're the one arguing a position to hold on to it.

Before the 12 playoffs we were still good offensively but our ball movement was nowhere as good as 2013.

Reread that at least 5 times before you reply again because I am not even sure what you are arguing anymore. Are you saying our ball movement was as good as it was in 2013? Are you disagreeing with the fact that we had an actual offensive system in 2013? Are you disagreeing with the fact that we had figured out our strengths and specific roles for the Big 3?

If you are not disagreeing with any of that we are not disagreeing on anything. You seem to be stuck with your own narrative. I am not being swayed by the Finals. I am being swayed by our RS results. Do you remember how much we struggled in the close games that year compared to 13 & 14? Our record in 2011 against teams in clutch situations was pretty bad. We won 58 games on sheer talent of James/Wade/Bosh. I am not arguing anything, I am simply saying our offense was better in 2013 because we had a system in place and ball movement + defined roles. Simple as that. You keep on arguing for the sake of arguing.

Awesome now reread your own post:

I know we had a good Ortg in 2011 and don't deny that but I wouldn't call any iso-offense no matter how highly rated effective or good.

You are directly saying you wouldn't call it effective or good. I replied to that and said it was both. I guess you can't keep track of your own statements which is abundantly clear since you also said it would be your last reply on the matter.

I'm not arguing any of your rhetorical questions so you can put the strawmen away.

You've said the offense was "world's better". I'm saying the difference in effectiveness isn't world's better and that opinion is narrative driven and based on aesthetics rather than facts.

[Shewasfly]

Except it was good and effective. The facts bear that out.

You are greatly influenced by a six game sample at the end of the season where Lebron played poorly and we didn't hit open threes like we did against the Thunder.

My point was that this huge difference in effectiveness is narrative driven and you're rebuttal is the same narrative. You're the one arguing a position to hold on to it.

Before the 12 playoffs we were still good offensively but our ball movement was nowhere as good as 2013.

Reread that at least 5 times before you reply again because I am not even sure what you are arguing anymore. Are you saying our ball movement was as good as it was in 2013? Are you disagreeing with the fact that we had an actual offensive system in 2013? Are you disagreeing with the fact that we had figured out our strengths and specific roles for the Big 3?

If you are not disagreeing with any of that we are not disagreeing on anything. You seem to be stuck with your own narrative. I am not being swayed by the Finals. I am being swayed by our RS results. Do you remember how much we struggled in the close games that year compared to 13 & 14? Our record in 2011 against teams in clutch situations was pretty bad. We won 58 games on sheer talent of James/Wade/Bosh. I am not arguing anything, I am simply saying our offense was better in 2013 because we had a system in place and ball movement + defined roles. Simple as that. You keep on arguing for the sake of arguing.

Edit: Even if we did win in 2011 that wouldn't change my view of our offense that year. It would probably validate the offense in your eyes but eventually Spo had to get LeBron to play more 4 offensively and I don't think we would experience the success we did in 12/13 without revamping our offense and designing everything around him with an actual system.

I know you're not talking to me but just had to say...our close games record wasn't great (I honestly doubt it was significantly worse than the following years but maybe it was) but instead we were beating teams by double digits routinely. Much more frequently than we did in the next years. How is winning close games a better example of how effective our offense was than the blowouts we saw in 2011? And why is the winning of close games associated with "revamping our offense and designing everything around him" anyway and not having more time together as a team? There is zero evidence to support that narrative certain people keep trying to push

[Heat_team02]

Chris Johnson was signed.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miam ... 6224.story

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXGR2CnVBsU[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSMuFro1vU4[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrJK52_UZcQ[/youtube]

[PaulieWal]

You are directly saying you wouldn't call it effective or good. I replied to that and said it was both. I guess you can't keep track of your own statements which is abundantly clear since you also said it would be your last reply on the matter.

I'm not arguing any of your rhetorical questions so you can put the strawmen away.

You've said the offense was "world's better". I'm saying the difference in effectiveness isn't world's better and that opinion is narrative driven and based on aesthetics rather than facts.

Oh yeah, my bad for continuing the convo. I wouldn't have but you replied after what 2-3 days, so I figured I would continue.

There no straw man arguments or maybe you don't know what those mean. I have made my position clear. I asked you a few simple questions. If you disagree on those then let's agree to disagree, if you don't then we agree. You may not think the offense was "world's better" but it certainly was better than 2011. The only thing we will disagree on is the effectiveness. I see our 2011 offense a lot OKC from last couple of years.

[PaulieWal]

There is zero evidence to support that narrative certain people keep trying to push

I am not attributing our offensive success only to James because I know you already argued with people about that, my point is entirely different.

[Mars]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEBz1LF64qY[/youtube]

[Zasterror]

[instagram]http://instagram.com/p/tYZWu2kMmF/[/instagram]

Wade zero gravity.

Dwyane Bane Wade

[Myam333]

Dwyane Bosh

When I look at Wade's face on Bosh's body, he kinda looks like a soft player/someone who would get pushed around. He has an innocent face.

With Bosh's face on Wade's body, he looks like the kind of player that does a lot of trash talking. Try to picture it.

The season needs to start already.

Was wondering if we signed Lance Stephenson's brother

Nah, we didn't sign Lantz.

[heatlespeatles]

Chris Johnson was signed.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miam ... 6224.story

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXGR2CnVBsU[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSMuFro1vU4[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrJK52_UZcQ[/youtube]

Oh, NOOOOW we get him smh. I swear I wanted us to get and develop this dude for 2 years now...smh

[heat4life]

This is where the offseason ends. Media day today. Please check new thread.

Let's get this season started!