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Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs"

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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns 

Post#181 » by Hallstar » Sat Oct 1, 2016 3:28 pm

puppa bear wrote:
eddieheatfan wrote:
Heat3 wrote:Shocked it ended like this. After a 7 month campaign of passive aggressiveness through the media culminating in publicly questioning the integrity of the Heat medical staff and claiming he's ready to go (even after knowing he had failed the physical). Shocked. Totally.
so will the heat let him go or just be traded?i wonder

We can't trade him now that he failed the physical. We will have to go through the process of getting a medical retirement waiver, to remove his salary.

Chances are though, a team will sign him and he will play enough to go back on our cap. So this will need to be done late enough this season, or more likely next offseason, so that he can't play 25 games before we get a chance to use his cap space.

If he was truly ready to go, and thought the Heat were blocking him he would be working in the background for a trade. We've heard nothing of that - perhaps the move to a new agent will get this done?

No team would trade for him(ready to go or not), but they would damn sure pay the min with us footing the rest of the bill
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#182 » by Shewasfly » Sat Oct 1, 2016 5:33 pm

So is it true that as long as we release him after March he can't go to another team and he's officially off our cap? What if he comes back next year, does he go back on our cap?
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#183 » by Hallstar » Sat Oct 1, 2016 5:39 pm

Shewasfly wrote:So is it true that as long as we release him after March he can't go to another team and he's officially off our cap? What if he comes back next year, does he go back on our cap?

Once he plays 25 games he's back on our cap
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#184 » by KingDavid » Sat Oct 1, 2016 5:40 pm

Shewasfly wrote:So is it true that as long as we release him after March he can't go to another team and he's officially off our cap? What if he comes back next year, does he go back on our cap?

No. He can go to another team, but he'll be ineligible for the playoffs if released in March 2017.

Yes. If he plays 10 consecutive games (or was it 25?) for another team, he goes back on our salary cap.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#185 » by Shewasfly » Sat Oct 1, 2016 5:46 pm

KingDavid wrote:
Shewasfly wrote:So is it true that as long as we release him after March he can't go to another team and he's officially off our cap? What if he comes back next year, does he go back on our cap?

No. He can go to another team, but he'll be ineligible for the playoffs if released in March 2017.

Yes. If he plays 10 consecutive games (or was it 25?) for another team, he goes back on our salary cap.


Got it. I hope there is at least a stipulation that if he tries to come back and doesn't get to 25 games because of his health then we are cleared of being liable for him ever again in terms of the cap. I don't think this should hang over our heads indefinitely if he then wants to try another comeback and then another after that.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#186 » by MartyConlonJr » Sat Oct 1, 2016 7:26 pm

It sure feels like the league should be working with the Heat to figure out something for this, outside of the existing CBA. It is pretty unprecedented I would think. At the very least, the Heat are currently in a position of ultimate risk if they ever have to play Bosh. If something horrific happens to him on court, no matter the level of responsibility he is willing to take for his own actions, it ultimately would be the Heat who would be looked down on for allowing it. It would become a "You needed to save him from himself" argument.

Obviously it is hairy because retiring would make it all insurance based, but he is not ready to retire, so any other negotiation is at the Heats expense.

What would be the ultimate negotiation here, ignoring the CBA?

Realistically, the Heat no longer have a player they can safely put on court. Because he got clots on or in some part due to playing, he wants to receive his whole salary. So that option is obvious - retire and get all your money.

Bosh wants to continue to get paid his full salary and play. Then the answer should be that someone who is prepared to play him wants to pay him the full amount. So that option exists and is called a trade.

Noone is prepared to trade for a player making that salary with that risk, so the option exists for both teams to waive the rest of the contract, then he can sign with whatever team will take the risk for whatever that salary would be.

Bosh feels like he deserves the right to play at risk to his organisation, jeopardise the ability for that organisation to plan on a way forward and receive his full salary? Just a hard spot.

Maybe if the league allowed a 50/50 salary split (Bosh gets 38 of his remaining 76 or whatever) where the Heat got to clear him immediately entirely from his cap, then Bosh can sign with whoever, that would be acceptable. My guess is the league is happy that Bosh is not on the court either and would not want to facilitate anything that would get him playing
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#187 » by puppa bear » Sun Oct 2, 2016 12:24 am

MartyConlonJr wrote:It sure feels like the league should be working with the Heat to figure out something for this, outside of the existing CBA. It is pretty unprecedented I would think. At the very least, the Heat are currently in a position of ultimate risk if they ever have to play Bosh. If something horrific happens to him on court, no matter the level of responsibility he is willing to take for his own actions, it ultimately would be the Heat who would be looked down on for allowing it. It would become a "You needed to save him from himself" argument.

Obviously it is hairy because retiring would make it all insurance based, but he is not ready to retire, so any other negotiation is at the Heats expense.

What would be the ultimate negotiation here, ignoring the CBA?

Realistically, the Heat no longer have a player they can safely put on court. Because he got clots on or in some part due to playing, he wants to receive his whole salary. So that option is obvious - retire and get all your money.

Bosh wants to continue to get paid his full salary and play. Then the answer should be that someone who is prepared to play him wants to pay him the full amount. So that option exists and is called a trade.

Noone is prepared to trade for a player making that salary with that risk, so the option exists for both teams to waive the rest of the contract, then he can sign with whatever team will take the risk for whatever that salary would be.

Bosh feels like he deserves the right to play at risk to his organisation, jeopardise the ability for that organisation to plan on a way forward and receive his full salary? Just a hard spot.

Maybe if the league allowed a 50/50 salary split (Bosh gets 38 of his remaining 76 or whatever) where the Heat got to clear him immediately entirely from his cap, then Bosh can sign with whoever, that would be acceptable. My guess is the league is happy that Bosh is not on the court either and would not want to facilitate anything that would get him playing

I can't see the NBAPA allowing a 50/50 type thing where the player doesn't get all they were guaranteed. I think a more realistic option would be that the league allow Heat to keep him off the cap long term, despite possibly playing the 25 games.

In reality, I don't see either happening, and we will probably just get to use his space next offseason, followed by him going back on our cap mid way through the season.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns 

Post#188 » by twix2500 » Sun Oct 2, 2016 12:53 am

Spider156 wrote:
twix2500 wrote:Bosh big issue is his ailment doesn't effect him till it life threatening. He feels absolutely normal which he is physically. I still so curious what is his actual illness that is causing these clots. It's kind hard for me to believe it's unknown

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Lol at the unknown. I'm a medical student. Here's how it works for doctors. It's all about the risk factors! Bosh has the #1 risk factor for a pulmonary embolism (clot) which is a prior history of pulmonary embolism. What does that mean? He is REQUIRED to be on a blood thinner (probably Warfarin/coumadin) for the rest of his life! Why? Because no doctor is going to take the chance to wait for another embolism to form, that's malpractice. They'd get sued so fast and lose their medical license all together. Why can't he play on a blood thinner? High risk of gastrointestinal bleeding! He's done


Nice breakdown. Most of us understand the risk of these blood clots and the risks that comes from the treatment that he has to live on to prevent clot formations. But when I said unknown, I meant the cause of the blood clots is unknown to us. And me explaining that it doesn't effect him, I was explaining what may be going through Bosh mind. He is having a tough time dealing with this, because he feels absolutely fine. Bosh has mention that he was tested to see if he had any of the inherited traits that causes blood clots and was cleared from any of the inherited factors (Factor V Leiden, Prothorobine gene mutation.. etc). Bosh has not said the cause is unknown, but its been lead to us that it is unknown. Also, what are the triggering factors that leads to his blood clots, is just a build up over time regardless of his activities, is it from bumps and bruises, or is it a factor of his environment (altitude, sitting a long time etc..)?

It is going to be challenging for Bosh to stay on his treatment consistently for his entire life which all patients struggles with who are on life term medications. Also could be a factor in Bosh approach to this is his belief in conventional medicine. If you are going into the medical field that is going to be one of your biggest challenges, those are suspicious of convention medicine and science in general.

And for my own personal curiosity, I wonder what is the unknown factors to these clots.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#189 » by contract » Sun Oct 2, 2016 1:16 am

Shewasfly wrote:
KingDavid wrote:
Shewasfly wrote:So is it true that as long as we release him after March he can't go to another team and he's officially off our cap? What if he comes back next year, does he go back on our cap?

No. He can go to another team, but he'll be ineligible for the playoffs if released in March 2017.

Yes. If he plays 10 consecutive games (or was it 25?) for another team, he goes back on our salary cap.


Got it. I hope there is at least a stipulation that if he tries to come back and doesn't get to 25 games because of his health then we are cleared of being liable for him ever again in terms of the cap. I don't think this should hang over our heads indefinitely if he then wants to try another comeback and then another after that.

Nope. That sword lingers until Bosh calls it quits.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns 

Post#190 » by Spider156 » Sun Oct 2, 2016 2:23 am

twix2500 wrote:
Spider156 wrote:
twix2500 wrote:Bosh big issue is his ailment doesn't effect him till it life threatening. He feels absolutely normal which he is physically. I still so curious what is his actual illness that is causing these clots. It's kind hard for me to believe it's unknown

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Lol at the unknown. I'm a medical student. Here's how it works for doctors. It's all about the risk factors! Bosh has the #1 risk factor for a pulmonary embolism (clot) which is a prior history of pulmonary embolism. What does that mean? He is REQUIRED to be on a blood thinner (probably Warfarin/coumadin) for the rest of his life! Why? Because no doctor is going to take the chance to wait for another embolism to form, that's malpractice. They'd get sued so fast and lose their medical license all together. Why can't he play on a blood thinner? High risk of gastrointestinal bleeding! He's done


Nice breakdown. Most of us understand the risk of these blood clots and the risks that comes from the treatment that he has to live on to prevent clot formations. But when I said unknown, I meant the cause of the blood clots is unknown to us. And me explaining that it doesn't effect him, I was explaining what may be going through Bosh mind. He is having a tough time dealing with this, because he feels absolutely fine. Bosh has mention that he was tested to see if he had any of the inherited traits that causes blood clots and was cleared from any of the inherited factors (Factor V Leiden, Prothorobine gene mutation.. etc). Bosh has not said the cause is unknown, but its been lead to us that it is unknown. Also, what are the triggering factors that leads to his blood clots, is just a build up over time regardless of his activities, is it from bumps and bruises, or is it a factor of his environment (altitude, sitting a long time etc..)?

It is going to be challenging for Bosh to stay on his treatment consistently for his entire life which all patients struggles with who are on life term medications. Also could be a factor in Bosh approach to this is his belief in conventional medicine. If you are going into the medical field that is going to be one of your biggest challenges, those are suspicious of convention medicine and science in general.

And for my own personal curiosity, I wonder what is the unknown factors to these clots.

There's so many causes for blood clots. I could probably sit here and search up all the causes for you and it'd be a good review for me but ultimately really he's had a blood clot so he has no choice but to take his medication. There's all sorts of medicine out there that people don't take because they feel fine mainly for hypertension, cholesterol, heart medicine, even aspirin same idea. As for the unknown, I can most definitely guess that it's definitely genetic because he's african american, could also be his past diet, could be because of long flights, could even be because he works out so much that he's increasing his blood pressure and heart size. There's a chance he has a big heart because as an athlete you can make your heart stronger (literally a muscle like a bicep) that there's less space for the blood to fill it and so blood could back up into the lungs and a clot forms. Now I'm basically just reaching though.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Overs Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#191 » by DWadeno3 » Sun Oct 2, 2016 10:12 am

jagz wrote:
DWadeno3 wrote:Only the stupid will let the Wade case legitimize LeBron's actions because the content of either case differs.

Ultimately there is no victor in said war because neither of the above mentioned players has had an impact for the Cavs. The reason Cleveland is so good is due to the NBA helping them in the time of LeBron's absence.


Memories fade, and the world is inclined to give LeBron the benefit of the doubt on everything anyway. He may very well end up perceived as the GOAT because he's been graded on a MASSIVE curve ever since he came on the scene (the 2011 Finals should have permanently destroyed that notion, and James has several other significant playoff failures too; MJ had none.)

Even when Miami was mildly snarky after LeBron (as opposed to Cleveland, who torched their city), they were called salty. Now with the one-two punch of him becoming a champion again and Wade leaving also in part because of a rift with Riley, Riley has been cast as the villain across the board. The Bosh rift is just the cherry on top. A narrative is building against Riley, at least among fans online, and, honestly, it's largely deserved.

Everything about this franchise that made it special is gone. This team was one game away from the conference finals last year! Now it will be in the lottery for years (without a first round pick in three of the next five), and its reputation has taken a huge hit among free agents.

I predict that Whiteside is going to end up looking like a massive overpay simply because there's no one who will keep him in check once the Heat start losing. Is Haslem gonna do it from the bench? Goran, when he may be gone before the break?

I could actually see the Heat's big free big free agent acquisition next summer being, wait for it.... Dwyane Wade (if he doesn't like life with the Bulls and considering there's no obtainable game-changing FAs anyway). That business move would be par for the course of late for an organization that could have had Wade for 15 M per year through 2018 if they'd just given him what he wanted in 2015 :banghead:


There are those who are fans of LeBron and those who have always hated Miami and they will always be against us no matter what because they're emotionally invested. Those people's opinion is irrelevant because they will never view the Heat in a positive light. Those are also the people who just waited to call us salty because we called the Cavs fans salty back in 2010 when LeBron left them. Due to their lack of objectivity, their opinions don't matter and hardly represent that of the majority.
Those who are rational and not emotionally attached don't blame Riley for anything in the LeBron case and view LeBron for what he is, a talented basketball player and a selfish narcissist who disrespected the organization on his way out.

Again, only the daft will mix the cases of LeBron, Bosh and Wade. Bosh is not medically cleared to play, neither by Heat doctors, nor by league doctors. Pretty much everybody agrees that he should no longer play due to the risk for his life. Nobody in their right mind blames Riley for refusing to play him.

The only case where Riley was wrong was Wade and he acknowledged it afterwards. Riley was too arrogant and perhaps desperate (due to his age) to form one last contender before he sails off into the sunset and disrespected Wade himself. That, however, doesn't vindicate LeBron in any way because they're two seperate instances.

Hence, your judgement on the criticism of Riley being largely deserved is baffling.

This organization is going through a rough time, as any organization does, but we're hardly losing our identity. Everybody knew that once Wade left/retired, we would have to create a new foundation and that will simply take some time.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#192 » by puppa bear » Sun Oct 2, 2016 2:58 pm

contract wrote:
Shewasfly wrote:
KingDavid wrote:No. He can go to another team, but he'll be ineligible for the playoffs if released in March 2017.

Yes. If he plays 10 consecutive games (or was it 25?) for another team, he goes back on our salary cap.


Got it. I hope there is at least a stipulation that if he tries to come back and doesn't get to 25 games because of his health then we are cleared of being liable for him ever again in terms of the cap. I don't think this should hang over our heads indefinitely if he then wants to try another comeback and then another after that.

Nope. That sword lingers until Bosh calls it quits.

or his contract runs out. We will not retroactively slugged with lux tax if he miraculously returns to playing in 2023. He has to play during the term of the contract for it to be reimposed on our cap sheet.

But the flip side is that we can't ever resign him (even after his current contract runs out). The medical retirement waiver is essentially a lifetime waiver.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#193 » by puppa bear » Sun Oct 2, 2016 3:05 pm

My biggest fear is that Bosh gets the NBAPA involved and they try get the NBA to force Heat to waive him ASAP after the anniversary of his last game, then some team (Cavs, Bulls, Mavs) sign him and play him in enough games to have his contract back on our books, and royally screw us.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns 

Post#194 » by caliban » Sun Oct 2, 2016 3:52 pm

puppa bear wrote:My biggest fear is that Bosh gets the NBAPA involved and they try get the NBA to force Heat to waive him ASAP after the anniversary of his last game, then some team (Cavs, Bulls, Mavs) sign him and play him in enough games to have his contract back on our books, and royally screw us.

The anniversary would have to include a physical by League doctors again I'd assume and how could a team doctor override that diagnose? It would be like the Heat doctors saying that Bosh's not healthy to play but the Leagues doctors think he is (as the tinfoil's think). Makes no sense if it doesn't go both ways and makes having League doctors completely redundant.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns 

Post#195 » by contract » Sun Oct 2, 2016 3:59 pm

puppa bear wrote:My biggest fear is that Bosh gets the NBAPA involved and they try get the NBA to force Heat to waive him ASAP after the anniversary of his last game, then some team (Cavs, Bulls, Mavs) sign him and play him in enough games to have his contract back on our books, and royally screw us.

I don't think the NBA can force the Heat to waive him at any point.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns 

Post#196 » by KingDavid » Sun Oct 2, 2016 4:32 pm

puppa bear wrote:My biggest fear is that Bosh gets the NBAPA involved and they try get the NBA to force Heat to waive him ASAP after the anniversary of his last game, then some team (Cavs, Bulls, Mavs) sign him and play him in enough games to have his contract back on our books, and royally screw us.

That's not quite how that works...
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns 

Post#197 » by KingDavid » Sun Oct 2, 2016 5:08 pm

contract wrote:
puppa bear wrote:My biggest fear is that Bosh gets the NBAPA involved and they try get the NBA to force Heat to waive him ASAP after the anniversary of his last game, then some team (Cavs, Bulls, Mavs) sign him and play him in enough games to have his contract back on our books, and royally screw us.

I don't think the NBA can force the Heat to waive him at any point.

Correct. If a player wants to be waived, then they can agree to a buyout and throw away a ton of money.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns 

Post#198 » by Shewasfly » Sun Oct 2, 2016 8:21 pm

KingDavid wrote:
contract wrote:
puppa bear wrote:My biggest fear is that Bosh gets the NBAPA involved and they try get the NBA to force Heat to waive him ASAP after the anniversary of his last game, then some team (Cavs, Bulls, Mavs) sign him and play him in enough games to have his contract back on our books, and royally screw us.

I don't think the NBA can force the Heat to waive him at any point.

Correct. If a player wants to be waived, then they can agree to a buyout and throw away a ton of money.


Do buyouts only happen on the salary for the season or for the entirety of the contract? For instance if Bosh has 78 million left on his contract, can we buy him out for 77 million, or would the buyout amount be for his 23 million salary for this year? If we're allowed the former, imo we should just buy him out for most of the money he's owed and just allow all parties to make a clean break. Unless it doesn't work that way. I'm well aware there's pretty much no way Arison would do it even if it was possible, but that'd be for the best.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns 

Post#199 » by KingDavid » Sun Oct 2, 2016 9:05 pm

Shewasfly wrote:
KingDavid wrote:
contract wrote:I don't think the NBA can force the Heat to waive him at any point.

Correct. If a player wants to be waived, then they can agree to a buyout and throw away a ton of money.


Do buyouts only happen on the salary for the season or for the entirety of the contract? For instance if Bosh has 78 million left on his contract, can we buy him out for 77 million, or would the buyout amount be for his 23 million salary for this year? If we're allowed the former, imo we should just buy him out for most of the money he's owed and just allow all parties to make a clean break. Unless it doesn't work that way. I'm well aware there's pretty much no way Arison would do it even if it was possible, but that'd be for the best.

That was tongue in cheek. A buyout won't happen because Bosh is facing a career-ending illness.

The determination as to whether an injury or illness is career ending is made by a physician jointly selected by the league and players association.
That is why puppa bear's post was an unneeded fear.

Here is the rest of the information regarding retirement and medical retirement.

There's nothing binding about a player announcing his retirement. The player can still sign a new contract and continue playing (if he's not under contract), or return to his team (if he is still under contract) and resume his career.

The only exception to this is when a player is still under contract, wants to quit, and his team doesn't want to let him out of his contract. Under these circumstances the player can file for retirement with the league. The player is placed on the league's Voluntarily Retired list (see question number 79), forgoes his remaining salary, and cannot return to the league for one year. The latter requirement prevents players from using retirement as an underhanded way to change teams, and can be overridden with unanimous approval from all 30 teams. For example, guard Jason Williams signed with the LA Clippers in August 2008, then changed his mind the following month, announcing his retirement. He applied for reinstatement in early 2009, but his request was denied by a vote of 24-6. Williams later signed with the Orlando Magic once the one-year anniversary of his retirement announcement had passed.

Any money paid to a player is included in team salary, even if the player is no longer playing or has retired.

There is one exception whereby a player can continue to receive his salary, but the salary is excluded from team salary. This is when a player suffers a career-ending injury or illness. The team must waive the player, and can apply for this salary exclusion following a waiting period. Only the player's team at the time the injury or illness was discovered (or reasonably should have been discovered) can apply for this salary exclusion.

The waiting period depends on the number games in which the player played in the season:1

If the player played 10 or more games in a season, the team can apply on the one-year anniversary of the player's last game.
If the player played fewer than 10 in a season, the team can apply 60 days after his last game, or the one-year anniversary of his last game in the previous season, whichever is later.
The determination as to whether an injury or illness is career ending is made by a physician jointly selected by the league and players association. The determination is based on whether the injury or illness will prevent the player from playing for the remainder of his career, or if it is severe enough that continuing to play constitutes a medically unacceptable risk.

If the injury exclusion is granted, the player's salary is removed from the team salary immediately.

If the player later "proves the doctors wrong" and resumes his career, then his salary is returned to the team salary when he plays in his 25th game1 in any one season, for any team. This allows a player to attempt to resume his career without affecting his previous team unless his comeback is ultimately successful. If the 25th game was a playoff game, then the player's salary is returned to the cap effective on the date of the team's last regular season game (i.e., the returned salary counts toward the luxury tax).

There are a few additional nuances to the salary exclusion:

If the player resumes his career and his salary is returned to the team salary, the team can re-apply for the salary exclusion under the same rules (including the rules for the waiting period).
If a player retires, even for medical reasons, his team does not receive a salary cap exception to acquire a replacement player.
A team cannot apply for this salary exclusion if they have applied for a Disabled Player exception (see question number 25) that season, whether the exception was granted or not.
If this salary exclusion is granted, the team cannot re-sign or re-acquire the player at any time.
This salary exclusion can be used when a player dies while under contract.
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Re: Bosh Career Is Over Clots Returns "Lungs" 

Post#200 » by puppa bear » Mon Oct 3, 2016 2:08 am

While I agree in that I don't see the NBA putting media pressure on us to waive him, I can see the NBAPA getting vocal (Bron & CP are heavyweights there), and the Bosh media wagon going full clip on the Heat.

There's nothing there to say that if a team wants to let a player try they have to go through the league doctors. The reinstatement vote only applies to a player who is on the voluntary retirement list, and then it's only within the year after the announcement. If he is waived via the medical retirement exception then he can try to prove the doctors wrong as soon as a team signs him. Plus, playoff games count.

We need to release him after the March deadline, and force him to miss the PO.

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