Heat vs Thunder 1/10/24 @ 730 PM EST

[iamoti]

We need to sort the defense. 128 points on 60% is not acceptable

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[Bishop45]

We need to sort the defense. 128 points on 60% is not acceptable

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A more dynamic guard on this team would help, but still more concerned about the defense. But maybe 100% healthy the. defense concerns are overblown

[Bishop45]

This team needs defense. The defense was so bad that they went to zone and it got shredded easily

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This, but also, the Thunder are really good

[Pokuokic]

Jovic did alright in his games against the #2 and #3rd picks from his draft next game he goes at the #1 hoping to see a direct match up cause Paulo has been insane this year.

[marson]

OKC looks legit and SGA is a stud. They still have a bazillion of picks remaining to get another star.

[Wiltside]

OKC looks legit and SGA is a stud. They still have a bazillion of picks remaining to get another star.

They’re getting close to going all in. They’ve got a hell of an ammo box for the next star that wants out.

Hell, could they tempt Golden State to part with Steph for some quality young talent and picks?

[Pokuokic]

If OKC can land a C who rebounds well and is good in general it's going to be insanely hard for anyone to beat them come playoffs. Chets abitlity to play the 4/5 gives them so much flexibility same with Williams who really is a SF (plays PF), Giddy is clearly the odd man out in particular with how good Cason Wallace has been,

Thunder have smacked the crap out of a lot of good to elite teams this year.

[MettaWorldPanda]

OKC looks legit and SGA is a stud. They still have a bazillion of picks remaining to get another star.

They’re getting close to going all in. They’ve got a hell of an ammo box for the next star that wants out.

Hell, could they tempt Golden State to part with Steph for some quality young talent and picks?

Yeah it’s comical the picks they have compared to us. We act like trading one pick for a rotation player is going to make or break our chances of getting a star when you got teams like OKC with about 15 1st rd picks in the cupboard and because of them we can’t trade a pick until 2028 as of today and we have one lowly 2nd rd pick.

[AirP.]

Its insane to think SGA is already a MVP candidate but in 2- 3 years Chet gonna be better than him while SGA is in his prime. If Chet stays healthy OKC should be a dynasty otherwise it's a failure. I don't how they had KD, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka and never won a chip. Its never talked how they botched that era

It's talked about a lot (I'm in OKC). One of those years Pat Bev undercut Russ and knocked him out for the year. There was the game 6 Klay game where he went nuts and OKC never recovered. There was also the retro activation of the D.Rose rule to give supermaxes for 2nd contracts that changed Russ' contract for a small market team and that's the reason Harden was given a specific number he could sign for or be traded, he declined and they moved him to Houston.

The year KD left, their offseason plan was resign KD, trade Ibaka for Oladipo and Sabonis(which happened) and the fill the vacant PF position with signing Horford, once KD committed to GS Horford signed with Boston.

Maybe in OKC it is but not nationwide. We hear a ton how Nets were a failure. I put OKC in same category. The Harden thing was on them, if you want to contend you gotta be willing to go deep in luxury tax.
And even with Harden trade, they had a great roster and great pieces but never could put it together. Presti biggest mistake was not getting an elite coach and never seemed to have enough shooting. Durant and Westbrook should have won atleast one or gotten to one finals.

Well, OKC kept Scott Brooks as head coach because KD wanted him there, only 1 year before KD jumped ship did they finally make a change with KD's blessing.

If you want to contend you gotta be willing to go deep in the luxury tax? Interesting perspective from a fan of a team who got to the conference finals 3 of the last 4 years and to the finals 2 of the last 4 years that just refused to go into the tax to retain talent until this season. Even now it looks like instead of strengthening the roster, Lowry will just be kept and allowed to expire to get this roster back under the tax.

Here's a story with a good account of what went wrong in the OKC KD, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka era which documents the 2 times the NBA made salary cap changes that uniquely screwed a small market like OKC trying to retain max level players and of course some key big injuries. I think with all that, that happened OKC got a pass from the national media because a lot what happened was out of their hands. It was like the perfect storm and should be something every franchise should learn from, just because you have great young talent, it doesn't mean everything works out. If you have a shot at a championship you need to do whatever it takes to get that championship! Something Miami just refused to do the last 4 offseason and it may have cost them 1 championship, then again it may not have, we'll never know.
https://www.sbnation.com/2019/7/17/20691262/oklahoma-city-thunder-history-timeline-russell-westbrook-kevin-durant-james-harden

I get possibly prioritizing getting both Ibaka and Harden over getting the better talent locked up as a misstep, but they thought they had them both at the numbers they offered both.

Making matters worse, this dilemma arrived the summer after the NBA installed newer and harsher penalties for exceeding the luxury tax, including an exponential scale for every dollar over and additional penalties for being in the luxury tax repeatedly. The new rules didn’t kick in until the following season, but new contracts for Harden and Ibaka would have pushed Oklahoma City well over the tax line.

And like I mentioned before, the Pat Bev causing Westbrook an injury...

Their first playoff series came against a familiar foe in the Rockets and Harden. In the second quarter of Game 2, Westbrook went to call a timeout and slowed down towards the bench, as is custom before a stoppage in play. Houston guard Patrick Beverley lunged for the ball at the same time, colliding with Westbrook’s knee. The incident would end up sparking years of beef between the duo.

Weeks before the start of the season, Oklahoma City announced Durant suffered a Jones fracture in his foot, which would sideline him for the first month. But that was only the beginning of KD’s injury woes. Durant sprained his ankle in December, his big toe a month later, and then had another procedure for a foot injury in February. On March 27, Presti announced Durant would miss the rest of the season to undergo a third surgery.

And of course being up 3-1 on GS and ending up losing that series. I remember that game 4 and how Klay and the Warriors basically broke the OKC team.

But the Warriors stormed back. After narrowly winning Game 5, Golden State received a Klay Thompson performance for the ages in a Game 6 thriller. Thompson scored 41 points while shooting 11 of 18 from three, an NBA playoff record, and outscored the entire Thunder team in the fourth quarter in a 108-101 win.

Had KD not have left that next season here's what OKC's starting 5 would have looked like....
Westbrook, Oladipo, KD, Horford, S.Adams with Sabonis, Roberson, Kanter and Payne on the bench, they would have been set up for the present and the future, OKC did the right moves they just got screwed by unique salary cap situations. It's pretty crazy how bad the salary cap changes blew up that team.

[Beenie]

I just don't feel like were gonna be that much better with Mitchell to be honest, we need something else. Donovan Mitchell is shooting a worse 3pt percentage, identical FG%, about the same amount of steals and rebounds, and half an assist more than Tyler Herro. He scores 4 and half more ppg's because he gets to the line a bit more, and is athletic/slasher I just don't see the allure. He ins't that much better, I mean he should he is 27. Herro is 23 years old, the only shooting guard in the league at the moment that is Herro's age or younger with a better efficiency and PER is Anthony Edwards.

Mitchell a much better handler, quicker, and can finish at the rim.

It’s an easy swap for me conceptually but the actual price to do this trade would still need to be within reason.

Looking at his statistics and what he was doing at age 23, the better handler, quicker, and can finish still isn't translating into that much better of a player. Your trading a stylisticly more aggressive slasher for a better perimeter shooter that still manages to have identical FG% with a slightly higher free throw rate, and not that much higher either, not Jimmy ish. Like just meh higher.

Stat comparisons leave out nuance such as team dynamics.

To simplify things, in the playoffs, when a bucket is absolutely necessary, and teams tend to default to either isolation or pick and roll, who would rather have: Herro or Mitchell?

[Dmcdani6]

I truly think this is where the season of Jimmy passing the torch happens, hes slowly not playing as much. Gotta let the youngins get their licks. Its like how OKC and the suns were 3-4 years ago.

Thank god Heat got JJJ, hes Jimmys replacement. I dont think you move Bam, Herro, Jovic, or JJJ. See if they can gel and shore up the bench mob. The growing pains of youngins.

[wadenation305]

Suppose I'm making changes to the roster. I'm keeping the young guys and moving the old. We ran this build for the past 5 years and Jimmy is not magically turning back the hands of time. From now on all trades would be around the idea "Get Bam, Herro, JJJ, and Jovic some help, and let's see what they can do". Despite not having Jimmy for long stretches we're still pulling out a decent number of W's. We need to continue letting those guys get comfortable on the court and with each other.

I feel we are one decent PG away from being very consistent in what we're doing

[MHeat0279]

Uhhhh he did far more in Utah than Herro has done in his entire career and he did it as the lead guy of the team lol. You comparing simple box score statistics based on certain ages (Herro at 22 >>>> Wade at 22 I guess) of our 3rd best player to the best player on the Jazz/Cavs who is defended far differently and depended on for far more.

He’s the slashing version of Jordan Poole? Good god lol.

I don’t need to sell you and I don’t need to sell the front office. If the Cavs called and said “hey well give you Mitchell for Herro straight up” the deal would be done in an instant lol.

We’ve got our lead guy for the playoffs in Jimmy who has great size, now we need an elite 3 level scorer from the guard position. We’re not asking Mitchell to be THE guy but his skillset is necessary to put us over the top.

Mitchell >>> Herro it’s not even close.

Its the not even close that gets me. Its actually close, Im not saying Herro is better Im saying that the difference that your expecting is not as big as your making it out to be. Hell the Miami Heat thought the same thing in the first go around going after him, they didn't think He was that much better than Herro were they had to put multiple picks to get.

You cannot compare what a player has done to date at age 27 when one player just hit age 23, no comp players at the same age is to see where they stack. Using Dwade as comp for age is dumb because Wade was drafted as later in his years he wasn't drafted young like Herro. So obviously it would take Wade a couple years more to enter his rapid ascension.

Read on Twitter

I’m saying it’s not close because it isn’t close. It takes maybe a few minutes of watching Mitchell to see how far superior of a talent he is compared to Herro. Watch a little basketball outside of the Heat; it will do you some good.

Heat wanted to pair the 2, Pat Riley always tries to finesse but he wasn’t pulling that on Danny Ainge. I stand by my statement if the Cavs called right now and offered Mitchell for Herro straight up the Heat are taking it without hesitation. Herro would also slightly fall off as a player and Mitchell would get better due to the Spo effect further widening the gap between the 2 players.

It’s not close, it’s time you all take the homer goggles off for this dude. He just isn’t it regardless of what elite players you all try to compare him to at a certain age or however good he was that one game of the ECF his rookie season. That’s not him. Mitchell is that guy, Mitchell is the big game performer that can carry the load if needed.

Hey man, not to ruffle your feathers because i actually agree with you on this take about Donovan being a better player than Herro, but specifically you talking about STATS not being the only measurement you need to look at? I have told you a million times when talking about Bam and you coming up with so many meaningless stats ( for the record I am pretty happy with Bam's performance this year ) still dont think he is a superstar. Carry on with Icecold.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Its the not even close that gets me. Its actually close, Im not saying Herro is better Im saying that the difference that your expecting is not as big as your making it out to be. Hell the Miami Heat thought the same thing in the first go around going after him, they didn't think He was that much better than Herro were they had to put multiple picks to get.

You cannot compare what a player has done to date at age 27 when one player just hit age 23, no comp players at the same age is to see where they stack. Using Dwade as comp for age is dumb because Wade was drafted as later in his years he wasn't drafted young like Herro. So obviously it would take Wade a couple years more to enter his rapid ascension.

Read on Twitter

I’m saying it’s not close because it isn’t close. It takes maybe a few minutes of watching Mitchell to see how far superior of a talent he is compared to Herro. Watch a little basketball outside of the Heat; it will do you some good.

Heat wanted to pair the 2, Pat Riley always tries to finesse but he wasn’t pulling that on Danny Ainge. I stand by my statement if the Cavs called right now and offered Mitchell for Herro straight up the Heat are taking it without hesitation. Herro would also slightly fall off as a player and Mitchell would get better due to the Spo effect further widening the gap between the 2 players.

It’s not close, it’s time you all take the homer goggles off for this dude. He just isn’t it regardless of what elite players you all try to compare him to at a certain age or however good he was that one game of the ECF his rookie season. That’s not him. Mitchell is that guy, Mitchell is the big game performer that can carry the load if needed.

Hey man, not to ruff your feathers because i actually agree with you on this take about Donovan being a better player than Herro, but specifically you talking about STATS not being the only measurement you need to look at? I have told you a million times when talking about Bam and you coming up with so many meaningless stats ( for the record I am pretty happy with Bam's performance this year ) still dont think he is a superstar. Carry on with Icecold.

Bams around a top 15 player in the league who has improved every single season in the league, you all were talking about the dude like he was Nerlens Noel so I rightfully killed all that ignorant talk. You all didn’t understand the skillset you were seeing and the progression players make as they age and get more experience I guess

[MHeat0279]

I’m saying it’s not close because it isn’t close. It takes maybe a few minutes of watching Mitchell to see how far superior of a talent he is compared to Herro. Watch a little basketball outside of the Heat; it will do you some good.

Heat wanted to pair the 2, Pat Riley always tries to finesse but he wasn’t pulling that on Danny Ainge. I stand by my statement if the Cavs called right now and offered Mitchell for Herro straight up the Heat are taking it without hesitation. Herro would also slightly fall off as a player and Mitchell would get better due to the Spo effect further widening the gap between the 2 players.

It’s not close, it’s time you all take the homer goggles off for this dude. He just isn’t it regardless of what elite players you all try to compare him to at a certain age or however good he was that one game of the ECF his rookie season. That’s not him. Mitchell is that guy, Mitchell is the big game performer that can carry the load if needed.

Hey man, not to ruff your feathers because i actually agree with you on this take about Donovan being a better player than Herro, but specifically you talking about STATS not being the only measurement you need to look at? I have told you a million times when talking about Bam and you coming up with so many meaningless stats ( for the record I am pretty happy with Bam's performance this year ) still dont think he is a superstar. Carry on with Icecold.

Bams around a top 15 player in the league who has improved every single season in the league, you all were talking about the dude like he was Nerlens Noel so I rightfully killed all that ignorant talk. You all didn’t understand the skillset you were seeing and the progression players make as they age and get more experience I guess

Problem is you made and still make him look like a stuperstar which he is not, point is you can not go by stats only, players need to evaluated not only by stats, a lot of them are empty ones.

[greg4012]

So this aggressive Bam that is doing damage to the paint in the later part of the fourth where was he during the third quarter???

Getting doubled every time he got the ball in the paint area for the first 3 quarters. OKC shifted to crowding the 3 point line to protect the lead in the 4th.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Hey man, not to ruff your feathers because i actually agree with you on this take about Donovan being a better player than Herro, but specifically you talking about STATS not being the only measurement you need to look at? I have told you a million times when talking about Bam and you coming up with so many meaningless stats ( for the record I am pretty happy with Bam's performance this year ) still dont think he is a superstar. Carry on with Icecold.

Bams around a top 15 player in the league who has improved every single season in the league, you all were talking about the dude like he was Nerlens Noel so I rightfully killed all that ignorant talk. You all didn’t understand the skillset you were seeing and the progression players make as they age and get more experience I guess

Problem is you made and still make him look like a stuperstar which he is not, point is you can not go by stats only, players need to evaluated not only by stats, a lot of them are empty ones.

I was making him look like an all star, which he is and was. I mean looking back on the “debates” now I was clearly right lol it wasn’t even close.

Right, I hooped my entire life coming up so I understand the game and talent I see outside of statistics. I’m not sure what you’re getting at with that comment, if you were directing it towards me or ICC idk.

[greg4012]

Its the not even close that gets me. Its actually close, Im not saying Herro is better Im saying that the difference that your expecting is not as big as your making it out to be. Hell the Miami Heat thought the same thing in the first go around going after him, they didn't think He was that much better than Herro were they had to put multiple picks to get.

You cannot compare what a player has done to date at age 27 when one player just hit age 23, no comp players at the same age is to see where they stack. Using Dwade as comp for age is dumb because Wade was drafted as later in his years he wasn't drafted young like Herro. So obviously it would take Wade a couple years more to enter his rapid ascension.

Read on Twitter

I’m saying it’s not close because it isn’t close. It takes maybe a few minutes of watching Mitchell to see how far superior of a talent he is compared to Herro. Watch a little basketball outside of the Heat; it will do you some good.

Heat wanted to pair the 2, Pat Riley always tries to finesse but he wasn’t pulling that on Danny Ainge. I stand by my statement if the Cavs called right now and offered Mitchell for Herro straight up the Heat are taking it without hesitation. Herro would also slightly fall off as a player and Mitchell would get better due to the Spo effect further widening the gap between the 2 players.

It’s not close, it’s time you all take the homer goggles off for this dude. He just isn’t it regardless of what elite players you all try to compare him to at a certain age or however good he was that one game of the ECF his rookie season. That’s not him. Mitchell is that guy, Mitchell is the big game performer that can carry the load if needed.

Hey man, not to ruffle your feathers because i actually agree with you on this take about Donovan being a better player than Herro, but specifically you talking about STATS not being the only measurement you need to look at? I have told you a million times when talking about Bam and you coming up with so many meaningless stats ( for the record I am pretty happy with Bam's performance this year ) still dont think he is a superstar. Carry on with Icecold.

But Bam is the ultimate "beyond the stats" player.

I don't think you're making the point you think you're making.

[dshearn]

I love me some Caleb, but with Niko’s emergence…

right there with you....

Caleb has been one of my favorite players...I love those 110% type guys....


but

damn

With Jovic and JJJ....these dudes need to stay on the court.


I still think Caleb is the best on ball, point of attack defender...but this year he has not looked like he has in the past. I don't recall him just shutting down drive after drive like he has in in the past. He probably is still better than a couple games ago when they stuck JJJ on the ball and made him man up Beal and Booker....but...that was a hell of an ask out of a rookie JJJ.

My uneducated layman's guess would be...the best path forward is making sure Jovic is on the court, and try to keep JJJ in that corner/dunker spot on offense. Compared to years past...I think he is the best combination of ability/IQ/Effort we have had in that spot. You get some of the movement that Duncan gives, plus the size to go to the basket in traffic, and the IQ to move the ball when it is not there.

[dshearn]

Its the not even close that gets me. Its actually close, Im not saying Herro is better Im saying that the difference that your expecting is not as big as your making it out to be. Hell the Miami Heat thought the same thing in the first go around going after him, they didn't think He was that much better than Herro were they had to put multiple picks to get.

You cannot compare what a player has done to date at age 27 when one player just hit age 23, no comp players at the same age is to see where they stack. Using Dwade as comp for age is dumb because Wade was drafted as later in his years he wasn't drafted young like Herro. So obviously it would take Wade a couple years more to enter his rapid ascension.

Read on Twitter

I’m saying it’s not close because it isn’t close. It takes maybe a few minutes of watching Mitchell to see how far superior of a talent he is compared to Herro. Watch a little basketball outside of the Heat; it will do you some good.

Heat wanted to pair the 2, Pat Riley always tries to finesse but he wasn’t pulling that on Danny Ainge. I stand by my statement if the Cavs called right now and offered Mitchell for Herro straight up the Heat are taking it without hesitation. Herro would also slightly fall off as a player and Mitchell would get better due to the Spo effect further widening the gap between the 2 players.

It’s not close, it’s time you all take the homer goggles off for this dude. He just isn’t it regardless of what elite players you all try to compare him to at a certain age or however good he was that one game of the ECF his rookie season. That’s not him. Mitchell is that guy, Mitchell is the big game performer that can carry the load if needed.

Hey man, not to ruffle your feathers because i actually agree with you on this take about Donovan being a better player than Herro, but specifically you talking about STATS not being the only measurement you need to look at? I have told you a million times when talking about Bam and you coming up with so many meaningless stats ( for the record I am pretty happy with Bam's performance this year ) still dont think he is a superstar. Carry on with Icecold.

I think this is the strongest case Bam has had to be labeled a "super star"....even if someone thinks he is not there "yet"....if we are being honest with ourselves ....we have to admit... the current version of Bam at least has an avenue to be in that discussion. Dude has figure out the way up the mountain.