OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done

[randy84]

You do realize that his career has been more than 7 games right?

Wow, you're not getting it.

I understand that Ersan has played in more games than 7 and save for the second part of last season he has been average to below average in most of them.

Now you on the other hand, seem to be going off a 23 game stretch from last year when he looked like an all-star, completely ignoring his production the previous 3 seasons.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

monta is a top 25 player in the league,
who thinks he is a top 10 player in the league,
which makes him a top 50 player in the league.

based on what hes given us so far, i can honestly say that until his athleticism erodes... i want him on my team if i can have him for reasonable money. hes a legitimate piece to a competitive team.

[Max Green]

Keep trying to discredit the record all you want, but a Win is a Win. And we haven't been a winning team in a couple of years.

True, but most of this is due to our current defense. If we're going to laud anything as of right now, it would be the addition of Udoh and the development of Sanders. Our O is below league average currently and worse than it ended last season.

I don't disagree with any of that, but Ersan being probably the worst offensive player in the league right now is a reason our offense isn't as good as last season so far.

Also, let me make this clear, I'm not solely giving Monta the credit for us being 17-11 in the games he's played, guys are going over the top in their criticism of him. Sure he hasn't been an efficient scorer but he's providing other things that's helping us play winning basketball.

[randy84]

Absolutely, unless you are justing going PPG.

ORTG and DRTG are almost completely subjective to the 5 man teams on the court. Single player ratings are pretty much useless unless they stray dramatically from the rest of the team.

Can't that be said about every statistic?

[Baddy Chuck]

You do realize that his career has been more than 7 games right?

Ersan may only be a 9/7 player in his career but he's done it on less minutes with a much better field goal percentage then he has currently. Obviously nobody knows for sure what will happen but you'd have to believe his field goal percentage will raise quite a bit from where it is now and he will look nowhere near as bad.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

ersan completely sucks right now in a john rocker kind of way. its impossible to discuss him sanely at this time.

[LUKE23]

I think people are saying as of right now we're a good team with him, but there are arguments to be made we could be a better team with a different SG. I mean, even if we win say 47, depending on how things shake out, maybe a move for a big, defensive floor spacer improves us even more?

I do agree that despite his inefficiency he's allowing us to do a few things. One is play a breakneck pace. Two is well above average passing at SG, which leads to good overall team ball movement, despite his poor shot selection.

[paul]

ersan completely sucks right now in a john rocker kind of way. its impossible to discuss him sanely at this time.

Maybe you should throw him under the bus, call him a disgrace, call for his head, tell us all you want him traded immediately for any bum in the league etc so that in a month when he's playing great ball you can tell us all how much he's helping us and his contract is the greatest ever signed?

[randy84]

You do realize that his career has been more than 7 games right?

Ersan may only be a 9/7 player in his career but he's done it on less minutes with a much better field goal percentage then he has currently. Obviously nobody knows for sure what will happen but you'd have to believe his field goal percentage will raise quite a bit from where it is now and he will look nowhere near as bad.

I don't know. The year before his career year he shot 30% from 3 and 43% from 2. I would say he is closer to a 35% shooter from 3 than a 40% or 45% shooter. So will he get better, I hope so. But I think people are thinking he is going to be closer to last year, then the year before, which I disagree with.

[Nebula1]

Bogut thread turns into Ersan thread on the Bucks board... now I've seen it all.

[Baddy Chuck]

were winning with pressure at the points of attack, rebounding, shotblocking and pace. monta is playing a large roll with several of those. his +/- is the best of the starters and when he gets his % up to career norms there wont be a single argument against him.

This is one thing I wanted to address. What is Monta's career norm? Early on he was an extremely effective player and that got him his current contract. Since then, he's had TS%'s of

50.3%
51.7%
53.6%
and 50.9%

So assuming he's no longer the Monta from the We Believe run, which there's no proof he'll ever be near that guy again, his "career norm" is only a few percentage points higher then he is shooting right now, so not much better at all.

[randy84]

Bogut thread turns into Ersan thread on the Bucks board... now I've seen it all.

Usually it just turns into an Monta Sucks thread.

[Jammo29]

Bogut thread turns into Ersan thread on the Bucks board... now I've seen it all.

Bogut is dead and gone. Ersan is still on our team. I much prefer to be talking about Ersan than Bogut.

[SkilesTheLimit]

"But I don’t ever think he can get back to that All-Star level where he was in Milwaukee.”

Hey Chuck, one problem.....he was NEVER an All-Star.

Thank god they dumped him when they did. I couldn't stand another year with this guy on the team wondering if his migraine, ankle, shoulder, or hang nail would keep him off the court.

On a side note, I'm not a huge Monta fan but I will admit that the eye test has proven to be quite favorable this year for me with his game. He's showing a lot of effort on D, has the best ability of any player on the team to find the open man cutting to the basket for easy hoops (great court vision), has not chucked too badly, has deferred to Brandon when he's feeling it, and overall has made a positive contribution to a winning product this far. He's one of the last guys I could complain about right now on the team. Ersan on the other hand....but I haven't made one comment on him because I know he works as hard as anyone and truly does care. So I'm pretty positive he will snap out of this funk. The one hindrance I see could be his ability to create for himself offensively. I still think that's the weakest part of his game.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

ersan completely sucks right now in a john rocker kind of way. its impossible to discuss him sanely at this time.

Maybe you should throw him under the bus, call him a disgrace, call for his head, tell us all you want him traded immediately for any bum in the league etc so that in a month when he's playing great ball you can tell us all how much he's helping us and his contract is the greatest ever signed?

the bogut fan is all mad

ive always described ersan as a nice situational player and a headcase. i complained a bit when we overpaid him.

but for me...his current slump is expected. he'll bounce out of it at some point, this season or next. im not worried about it.... altho obviously id gladly trade his salary slot for a more traditional post player as i would have all summer.

[Max Green]

I'm not saying we should trade Monta for a TPE and future second. We just traded Andrew Bogut for him and despite his faults, he still has value. Monta brings some stuff to the table, and all of that plus some is replicated by Jennings. Bringing in a shooting guard that would actually compliment Jennings would push this team even further, make us an even better team then we're seeing now. Add into the fact that Monta has a looming contract situation and you have even more reason to move him. I'm almost hoping Jennings get a big extension this season to lower the likelihood of resigning Monta, replacing him is one easy way to make this team better.

I think people are saying as of right now we're a good team with him, but there are arguments to be made we could be a better team with a different SG. I mean, even if we win say 47, depending on how things shake out, maybe a move for a big, defensive floor spacer improves us even more?

I do agree that despite his inefficiency he's allowing us to do a few things. One is play a breakneck pace. Two is well above average passing at SG, which leads to good overall team ball movement, despite his poor shot selection.

Fair enough. I don't really disagree much with either posts.

[randy84]

were winning with pressure at the points of attack, rebounding, shotblocking and pace. monta is playing a large roll with several of those. his +/- is the best of the starters and when he gets his % up to career norms there wont be a single argument against him.

This is one thing I wanted to address. What is Monta's career norm? Early on he was an extremely effective player and that got him his current contract. Since then, he's had TS%'s of

50.3%
51.7%
53.6%
and 50.9%

So assuming he's no longer the Monta from the We Believe run, which there's no proof he'll ever be near that guy again, his "career norm" is only a few percentage points higher then he is shooting right now, so not much better at all.

The problem with TS% is that three pointers factor in. Monta has never been a good 3 pt shooter and never will be. The way to mitigate this is to surround him with one or two 3 pt shooters that he can kick it out to. That is what has been working with the Bucks.

So to base Monta's value off of TS% is really underrating what he brings to the table. His ability to drive and dish is a huge benefit to this team that the team hasn't had since the Salmons trade.

Now that's not to say that Monta isn't flawed because he is. Just like ever player on the Bucks. We don't have one player that has it all.

[paul]

The problem with TS% is that three pointers factor in.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

were winning with pressure at the points of attack, rebounding, shotblocking and pace. monta is playing a large roll with several of those. his +/- is the best of the starters and when he gets his % up to career norms there wont be a single argument against him.

This is one thing I wanted to address. What is Monta's career norm? Early on he was an extremely effective player and that got him his current contract. Since then, he's had TS%'s of

50.3%
51.7%
53.6%
and 50.9%

So assuming he's no longer the Monta from the We Believe run, which there's no proof he'll ever be near that guy again, his "career norm" is only a few percentage points higher then he is shooting right now, so not much better at all.

fair question. id like to see him around 52%.... thats a number that minimizes most of the harm from the way he plays. theres always going to be a few more of "those nights" from him over the course of the season than the top guys. thats why hes never gonna be a max type player. hopefully he wont command that kind of money when it comes time to resign him either.

i will say this. if the team doesnt perform over the course of the season with him. if we get the sense hes gonna walk. or we get the sense we have to dramatically overpay... then we need to move him. i will easily sign on to that reason to move him out. that doesnt change what ive seen so far tho.

[Baddy Chuck]

The problem with TS% is that three pointers factor in. Monta has never been a good 3 pt shooter and never will be. The way to mitigate this is to surround him with one or two 3 pt shooters that he can kick it out to. That is what has been working with the Bucks.

So to base Monta's value off of TS% is really underrating what he brings to the table. His ability to drive and dish is a huge benefit to this team that the team hasn't had since the Salmons trade.

Now that's not to say that Monta isn't flawed because he is. Just like ever player on the Bucks. We don't have one player that has it all.

His assists (and subsequent turnovers) are what you should look at then. Monta's best, by far, asset to any team is his scoring and that is based off percentages. Just because an awful shooter decides to shoot 4 threes, and near 5 long twos a game, does not mean a stat is skewed.