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Milwaukee Bucks Team Stats

SplitGPMPGFGAFG%3PA3P%FTAFT%RPGAPGSPGBPGPPG
Opponent Bench8217.4127.20.4397.82.3537.56.74015.137.482.721.6832.26
Opponent Starters8231.0854.77.48214.46.39716.96.75628.3515.345.093.3571.40
Opponent Totals8248.4981.96.46822.28.38124.52.75143.4922.827.805.04103.66
Team Bench8218.5029.49.4506.40.3528.82.71416.017.512.652.4135.09
Team Starters8229.9952.67.43212.54.35313.66.76925.1013.953.952.4960.39
Team Totals8248.4982.16.43818.94.35322.48.74741.1121.466.604.9095.48

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JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias

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Post#46 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:01 pm by GHOSTofSIKMA

we wear carmelo out chasing dunleavy.... then we shut him down over the stretch run with moute. if we trot harris out all night on him, then we might as well bake a cake and hire strippers for him too.
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Post#47 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:02 pm by europa

Who doesn't like cake and strippers?
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Post#48 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:02 pm by DocHoliday

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:moute or dunleavy against the top teams/ top sfs at this point. love our 20yr old harris..... but in close games he scares the sht out of me being on the floor.


well sure but conversely why then when we are blowing Indy off the court is Dunleavy playing in the 4th quarter while Tobias sits on the bench? I can only assume stat padding for the 6th man award.
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Post#49 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:12 pm by GHOSTofSIKMA

DocHoliday wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:moute or dunleavy against the top teams/ top sfs at this point. love our 20yr old harris..... but in close games he scares the sht out of me being on the floor.


well sure but conversely why then when we are blowing Indy off the court is Dunleavy playing in the 4th quarter while Tobias sits on the bench? I can only assume stat padding for the 6th man award.


annoyed me too. that should have been primetime harris/ henson time. its like because harris starts that somehow he isnt supposed to be our goto guy in garbage time? weird.

in his year 2 for us, as we seem to be fielding a competitive team.....he needs to be the token starter in close competitions, and do his best big dog impression when we have games under control. if dunleavy moves on next year then harris will have a primetime oppurtunity to take over that scorers role then.
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Post#50 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:20 pm by jr lucosa

I love LRMAM but I don't think he needs set minutes every night. Against teams like the Celtics and Heat he can play around 30 minutes when the game is close and his defense is needed. Against teams with wings who don't have nearly the same scoring punch he can play 15-20, or whatever the situation calls for.

I don't think Moute will ever have set minutes this year, maybe a minute limit because of injuries, but he's a very good situational player who has no use on the floor for other periods of time.
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Post#51 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:22 pm by europa

Based on what I've seen thus far the only player on the team who merits set minutes in my opinion is Jennings.
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Post#52 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:30 pm by gbmb34

jr lucosa wrote:I love LRMAM but I don't think he needs set minutes every night. Against teams like the Celtics and Heat he can play around 30 minutes when the game is close and his defense is needed. Against teams with wings who don't have nearly the same scoring punch he can play 15-20, or whatever the situation calls for.

I don't think Moute will ever have set minutes this year, maybe a minute limit because of injuries, but he's a very good situational player who has no use on the floor for other periods of time.


This is where I'm at.

Moute will probably take all of Daniels minutes, 2 or 3 from Dunleavy, 4 or 5 from Harris and maybe a handful from Ersan on nights where there is no dynamic perimeter threat. Would be awesome if he could get back (and 100%) for the Knicks and/or Heat but that seems like wishful thinking.
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Post#53 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:33 pm by Thunder Muscle

If I had to guess, Moute will get Daniels' 15 minutes a game to start and then pending on the match-up Harris (need offense) or Moute (need defense) will play more. Moute has always gotten around 25 minutes/game, which is also his career average.

The only other item is if Moute looks somewhat effect, do you think they consider trading him? I think Hammond really values him, but I think playing time is going to start to become an issue. A good thing to have I guess, but alot of these guys are proving they at least deserve minutes. And at this point dealing Gooden doesn't really do much to clear it up b/c he's not playing at all. But Daniels has no trade value, Sanders and Udoh are a good combo, Ersan isn't going anywhere, Daly is here until the end. Moute to me would be the odd man out BUT he does have value in those situations where you need a shut down guy. I just don't know if he'll be happy being a situational guy and there were already rumors he was trying to leave Milwaukee before we matched last year.
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Post#54 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:50 pm by xTitan

All this sounds like a trade to be made, this team is in desperate need of a #2 with length and athleticism for next next year, hell they need that for this year.......the Bucks should be able to put together an attractive package for someone who has that....don't ask me who, not sure.
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Post#55 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:11 pm by MilBucksBackOnTop06

carmelbrownqueen wrote:I like Tobias a lot but I agree that his defense has been horrible. I want to see him get minutes but I'm not sure he should get them as a starter. I would love to see him get some mentoring from Luc Richard

I kind of agree. But he can get them at the D-League. If you look throughout the week a number of teams sent their first wave of young players to the Developmental league.

That would be a perfect option for Tobias Harris when Mbah a Moute comes back if not Henson as well. Henson learns nothing sitting on the bench and watching. 10pts in 3 minutes....he has to play.

But until you decide what to do with Gooden or if he is going to play over Ersan until he gets his shot back together I would send John down as well so they can get some burn together. I would hesitate sending Lamb down but that might be an option as well
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Post#56 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:26 pm by MilBucksBackOnTop06

europa wrote:I think the perimeter defense is a major area of concern. I love Tobes but he's not a good defender. Dunleavy's terrible. Whenever Ellis is on the court he sucks defensively. I think the Bucks need Moute's perimeter defense.

Another that I am not sure what they are watching. Some say things without actually thinking or looking at the game. Monta has busted his tail on the perimeter with bodying up his man on defense and then playing over, under, and around screens.

SG and PG is extremly hard to defend if you space the floor and ball swing properly and hit your open shots on top...so you can't count that. NOBODY CAN GUARD that kind of execution. You tip your hat to that and move on...but Monta and Brandon have pressured teams out of that when their ball guarding. Give them some credit.

He and Jennings have been very good in that area...Jennings leads the NBA in steals and Monta is not far behind and might lead in ball deflections and is the best playing the passing lanes and garnering loose balls.

Deflections and ball denial is defense too my friends. Watch the game and stop rap sheet posting...posting what a players rap is (poor defender without taking an honest look at any improvements lately)

WHO HAS TORCHED MONTA THIS YEAR? Tell me? Who? Just name me one player and I will leave it alone!? Ok Pierce hit some shots late...so what. Big deal. That is going to happen and guys are going to hit some 3's on him like J-Rich. Ellis is not a shotblocker...but there is more to defense then blocking shots.

Monta is playing the best defense of anyone on the entitre team but Jennings. Watch the game and stop going on reputation. Monta and Jennings have Rondo and dribble penetration the last 3-4 games...that is all you ask for cats their size!

You know basketball better then this. If this was not true I would be the first one to say it and call them out on poor defense, but Monta and Jennings are getting it in on the defensive end. Try actually watch the darn game...I see improvments and effort

The Bucks are 5-2....hello somebody! Tell me, what constitues a good defensive game for a SG and PG in the NBA to some of you? I got a stat happy crowd in here I know...but I dont look at numbers on a paper all the time.
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Post#57 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:29 pm by europa

MilBucksBackOnTop06 wrote:
europa wrote:I think the perimeter defense is a major area of concern. I love Tobes but he's not a good defender. Dunleavy's terrible. Whenever Ellis is on the court he sucks defensively. I think the Bucks need Moute's perimeter defense.

Another fans that does not know what they are watching.


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Post#58 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:40 pm by milweskee

I wouldn't send Tobias to the D-League. I still think of him as a player that can help us win even with his weaknesses. Regardless of what kind of spin you want to apply, he's our most talented SF. You'd be completely committed to Daniels and Dunleavy producing offensively at SF night in and night out. No thanks!
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Post#59 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:42 pm by europa

Harris is one of the most efficient scorers on the team and arguably the best (perhaps only) post threat. He absolutely belongs on the active roster. He probably should be getting more shots than he does but that's unlikely to happen with the offensive focus so squarely on Jennings and Ellis.
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Post#60 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:48 pm by crkone

Does this team REALLY need an efficient scorer who can create his own offense from the post? I mean it's not like the Bucks will have to play any half court offense with the swag duo we have runnin' and gunnin'. In fact, we should try to trade Harris for Crawford or Terry and really get a good trifecta going.
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Post#61 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:10 pm by unklchuk

MilBucksBackOnTop06 wrote:
europa wrote:I think the perimeter defense is a major area of concern. I love Tobes but he's not a good defender. Dunleavy's terrible. Whenever Ellis is on the court he sucks defensively. I think the Bucks need Moute's perimeter defense.

Another that I am not sure what they are watching. Some say things without actually thinking or looking at the game. Monta has busted his tail on the perimeter with bodying up his man on defense and then playing over, under, and around screens.

SG and PG is extremly hard to defend if you space the floor and ball swing properly and hit your open shots on top...so you can't count that. NOBODY CAN GUARD that kind of execution. You tip your hat to that and move on...but Monta and Brandon have pressured teams out of that when their ball guarding. Give them some credit.

He and Jennings have been very good in that area...Jennings leads the NBA in steals and Monta is not far behind and might lead in ball deflections and is the best playing the passing lanes and garnering loose balls.

Deflections and ball denial is defense too my friends. Watch the game and stop rap sheet posting...posting what a players rap is (poor defender without taking an honest look at any improvements lately)

WHO HAS TORCHED MONTA THIS YEAR? Tell me? Who? Just name me one player and I will leave it alone!? Ok Pierce hit some shots late...so what. Big deal. That is going to happen and guys are going to hit some 3's on him like J-Rich. Ellis is not a shotblocker...but there is more to defense then blocking shots.

Monta is playing the best defense of anyone on the entitre team but Jennings. Watch the game and stop going on reputation. Monta and Jennings have Rondo and dribble penetration the last 3-4 games...that is all you ask for cats their size!

You know basketball better then this. If this was not true I would be the first one to say it and call them out on poor defense, but Monta and Jennings are getting it in on the defensive end. Try actually watch the darn game...I see improvments and effort

The Bucks are 5-2....hello somebody! Tell me, what constitues a good defensive game for a SG and PG in the NBA to some of you? I got a stat happy crowd in here I know...but I dont look at numbers on a paper all the time.


I call this a worthwhile post as a counter to the prevailing opinion. But IMO this adds to the truth, not constitutes it. And if it's the prevailing opinion you disagree with, I don't see a purpose to going after individuals. Especially individuals who are known for giving things some thought.

My observations of Ellis have largely shown me a guy working hard at defense and having some success. The fact that it's hard to stop the opponent and the fact that Ellis isn't well equipped to do so clearly factor in. But I'd stop way short of calling him a defensive disaster.

The defensive disaster that comes to mind was Dunleavy trying to guard Pierce in the second half of their last game. That was painful, and futile, until Daniels replaced him.
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Post#62 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:29 pm by coolhandluke121

Newz wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:Harris will be buried on the bench when Moute returns. Henson won't play either. And I don't really mind because Moute is such a proven contributor. Harris is mostly just getting garbage points anyway, and Moute's actually pretty good at that. If they were utilizing Harris correctly then you would see a big drop-off, but since they're under-utilizing him on offense it won't make much difference.

I don't buy the argument that the Bucks need offense more than defense. Even if you're already very good on defense, you can get better by adding a guy like Moute. If you give up 3 points on offense but gain 4 points on defense, you've improved. That's true even if you were already the best defensive team and worst offensive team in the league. There's a point of diminishing returns when you keep adding offensive players because there's only one basketball. But there's no point of diminishing returns on defense because all 5 opposing players have to be defended. As long as you have enough offense, which they will once Ellis and Ersan break out of their horrendous slumps, this will be the rotation:

Jennings/Udrih
Ellis/Udrih/MDJ
LRMAM/MDJ
Ersan/Sanders
Dalembert/Udoh

And Daniels will probably be the 10th man who plays under 10mpg just to make the timing of the substitutions work. I'd normally prefer to develop Harris and Henson, but I see this as a potential home-court team so I don't mind sacrificing player development for now.


Tobes TS% right now is almost 70%... I realize he's only scoring 8 a game, but I highly doubt Moute can get even close to that.



Yes, but at the volume Harris has now and the volume Moute would have, a 15% difference in TS% is probably not even 2 points a game. Moute's defense, compared to Harris, easily makes up for that. If they were utilizing Harris more effectively then the drop-off in scoring would be dramatic. But they're not, and probably never will as long as they start with this backcourt. Moute instead of Harris would fit the starting lineup much better IMO. Except for one, maybe two good post-ups per game, Harris has been relegated to being mostly a garbage player on offense anyway. Moute can do that too, with the added bonus of lockdown defense.

I'm not really arguing for it vehemently because I like Harris. I'm just trying to convince myself that it's going to be a good move because I've already resigned myself to the fact that it's inevitable. And I do see some benefits.
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Post#63 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:38 pm by Thunder Muscle

But for me, the team is currently 5th in defense and in the bottom half for offense. The numbers clearly state we need better offense which is something Tobias can provide and is doing so efficiently albeit a little more limited touches. But the #'s lead me to believe we need more offense, which equals more Tobias than Moute for me.
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Post#64 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:39 pm by coolhandluke121

crkone wrote:Does this team REALLY need an efficient scorer who can create his own offense from the post? I mean it's not like the Bucks will have to play any half court offense with the swag duo we have runnin' and gunnin'. In fact, we should try to trade Harris for Crawford or Terry and really get a good trifecta going.


They don't really need another gunner though. They just need a specialist of some sort who will play defense. Once Ersan and Ellis find their stroke a little bit, even if they're below career norms, the offense will be okay. Dalembert provides some offense as well. Ersan can stretch the floor, so they can easily incorporate a rebounder and defender who scores only garbage points inside at sf. Moute is perfect.
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Post#65 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:45 pm by coolhandluke121

N8Frog wrote:But for me, the team is currently 5th in defense and in the bottom half for offense. The numbers clearly state we need better offense which is something Tobias can provide and is doing so efficiently albeit a little more limited touches. But the #'s lead me to believe we need more offense, which equals more Tobias than Moute for me.


I can't even get my head around that logic. Just because they're not good on offense means that the only way to improve is with better offensive players? The fact is that any personnel change that improves their scoring margin will also improve their record over the course of the season. Even if you're already the best defensive team in NBA history, improving your defense by 2 ppg will result in the same number of project additional wins as improving your offense by 2 ppg would. Have synergy and an identity and you're good. Moute would provide more of that in the starting lineup, whereas Harris is just wasting away on offense and giving away points on defense.
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