Potential Jennings trade thread (POLL ADDED)

[Nebula1]

See, I think adding Marion and Lowry do help you long term.

You must be trolling

[xTitan]

Get me Michael Cater Williams and I will be happy.

[Baddy Chuck]

See, I think adding Marion and Lowry do help you long term.

You must be trolling

I don't think Lowry helps you more then Jennings this year, next year and certainly not 5 years from now but in my personal opinion, I rather have Lowry at 6 million as a trade asset this offseason then Jennings as a restricted free agent.

Ersan and Marion, honestly, I do believe whole heartitdly that Marion makes us a better team this season and maybe next. Add the fact that he'd be an expiring asset next year and Ersan is owed 30+ million to be a semi productive backup and yeah, I do think he helps you long term.

[mattg]

Get me Michael Cater Williams and I will be happy.

I don't get the fascination with acquiring him to replace Jennings. He racks up defensive numbers as a long guard out top in syracuses zone, which is to be expected, and has large raw assist numbers, but he's got some major issues. He's rail thin(probably within 10lbs of Jennings despite being 5in taller), he can't finish at the rim at all, his jumper isn't very good, his handle is merely average and he is a turnover machine. I just can't see him being an upgrade over Jennings at all, and he's got some major red flags.

If you're trying to draft Jennings replacement I think the only sane choice is trey Burke, but I can't imagine a scenario where we'd be in a position to draft him.

[El Duderino]

I'm fine with either trading Jennings or letting him walk after next year. The only scenario i have no interest in is locking Brandon up long term at sizable money. He's pretty much the same wildly inconsistent player he was as a rookie.

He still can't finish well in the paint
He still can't get to the line
He still can't go right to get into the paint
He still has the same very mediocre court vision as a passer
His ability to be productive on a given night is still way to heavily reliant on whether his erratic jumper is falling

So for me, it's not just that i don't want the Bucks paying Brandon to much money, i simply don't want to spend the next 4-5 years watching him be the Bucks PG.

[ampd]

A little off topic but ...

Our team really does go as Jennings goes -

In Wins 20/7/4/2 steals on .457 FG (.601 TS)
In Losses 16/4/4/2 steals on .353 FG (.436 TS)

Monta's stats don't really diverge in wins and losses.

There are only 2 guys who average on a nightly basis what Jennings does in our wins - Durant and Lebron (Kobe is close at .584 TS). I don't expect Jennings to ever get to the point where he can do that on a nightly basis. Best case is that he flips his percentage of 'good games' around to where its more like 60-65% instead of 40% which would land him somewhere in the .540 TS range. That would get him into #1 option territory and our record would be a lot better.

I wouldn't put the chances of that happening at more than 50%, but I would put our chaces of drafting or trading for someone who does it at far lower than that. Which is why I think we are forced to keep / pay him unless we get an asset that is more likely to return that sort of player in some way.

If you think Jennings chances of improving that far are a lot less likely than I do then I completely understand why we disagree.

[JayMKE]

Nobody is even coming up with one positive looking trade even if unrealistic. If the perimeters for a trade are a big man AND a PG, I just stand pat. There is nobody in the league that is going to help us.

[Baddy Chuck]

There is nobody in the league that is going to help us.

And unless he improves, that's Brandon Jennings included.

[paulpressey25]

The splits ampd put up are the problem with Jenning. Those stats in wins are great. But then you realize we've also lost almost as many games where the bad stats appear.

So the question is why do we have the bad games? I chalk it up in a lot of the cases to matchups since most of the losses come against better teams. Better teams have better defenses that bother Brandon. And when he's bothered on his shooting there isn't a lot else he is able to do on the court to overcome that.

[JayMKE]

And Brandon can and has improved as a player. He's in a tough situation right now playing next to Monta Ellis and vice versa to be fair. They are not players that compliment each other, it's very hard for both to play well at the same time. Brandon obviously can play well and against elite competition, he just needs to become less inconsistent.

You talk about Kyle Lowry being an asset, what if he has a year like he's having this year? Where he's injured and getting beat out by Jose Calderon for PT. This is actually still probably one of his better years, the guy just isn't very good and will be 27 next year. He's super movable if you're fine taking junk back(like a Lakers first in 2015 or something like that)

I'm fine taking my chances in RFA with Brandon, he could get a lot or he might not. I'd be fine getting him back at a fair price. We could potentially work out a trade too. On draft day maybe even, which would def be more up our ally since we wouldn't necessarily be giving up a playoff run.

[mattg]

The splits ampd put up are the problem with Jenning. Those stats in wins are great. But then you realize we've also lost almost as many games where the bad stats appear.

So the question is why do we have the bad games? I chalk it up in a lot of the cases to matchups since most of the losses come against better teams. Better teams have better defenses that bother Brandon. And when he's bothered on his shooting there isn't a lot else he is able to do on the court to overcome that.

The question becomes, what happens with Jennings when you put him alongside a good offensive player who can take pressure off of him so he doesn't have to use so many offensive possessions because we have no chance to win if Jennings doesn't shoot a lot and shoot well. I'm talking about an efficient secondary(or even primary creator), not just an efficient catch and shoot player or something. Think about how good we look offensively at times playing Beno and Jennings together when beno is playing well, and now imagine that skillset in a SG or SF who could do it consistently.

[Bucks_MacGyver]

People hate on Jennings for shooting too much, but he has so much pressure on him to score just so we have a chance to win. As a young player with the wrong coach what is he suppose to do. Your only asking him to be inconsistent. He never was told if he its the scorer or the floor general. His mind set is he has to do both, since skiles never establish that role. Seems boylan has him going in the right direction.

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[Baddy Chuck]

I would love to see Monta gone because I think it helps the team overall (and he's an asset you need to cash in on) but I'd be lying if I said it helped Brandon that much. His problems aren't tied into Monta. Not being able to dribble right, inconsistent jump shot and his problems converting or passing once he gets into the lane aren't a problem that Monta is throwing on Brandon's shoulders. One thing that could help him with a more consistent guy is the nights where Brandon feels like he has to chuck up shots to pick up the slack, but honestly, for every one of those nights there's a night where Brandon chucks up those shots anyways. It'll be interesting to see how long the excuses for being inconsistent run with Brandon.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

The question becomes, what happens with Jennings when you put him alongside a good offensive player who can take pressure off of him so he doesn't have to use so many offensive possessions because we have no chance to win if Jennings doesn't shoot a lot and shoot well. I'm talking about an efficient secondary(or even primary creator), not just an efficient catch and shoot player or something. Think about how good we look offensively at times playing Beno and Jennings together when beno is playing well, and now imagine that skillset in a SG or SF who could do it consistently.

how is this guy you describe to take the "load off jennings".... not monta ellis?

ellis big issue is his efficiency but that has nothing to do with what you just described as jennings "ideal" running mate. surely youre not suggesting that if ellis shot better that this would improve how jennings looks are you?

i hate the argument about how brandon would look if we paired him with a decent sg. wtf does that have to do with anything. how in the hell is another sg gonna help brandon unless he does all the things a damn pg is supposed to do for him. brandon is the pg... he doesnt play like one. he plays like a sg. the discussion should be how the rest of the team would look with a decent pg.

[mattg]

I would love to see Monta gone because I think it helps the team overall (and he's an asset you need to cash in on) but I'd be lying if I said it helped Brandon that much. His problems aren't tied into Monta. Not being able to dribble right, inconsistent jump shot and his problems converting or passing once he gets into the lane aren't a problem that Monta is throwing on Brandon's shoulders. One thing that could help him with a more consistent guy is the nights where Brandon feels like he has to chuck up shots to pick up the slack, but honestly, for every one of those nights there's a night where Brandon chucks up those shots anyways. It'll be interesting to see how long the excuses for being inconsistent run with Brandon.

Well obviously Brandon would still have his weaknesses, but with better talent they become less magnified/important and I think it's painfully obvious that its much easier to be consistent with a smaller role than it is in an extremely large role.

[paulpressey25]

The more things change.....the more they stay the same.

We've had these discussions before. Bogut would be better if we had a dirty work PF who could also space next to him. Redd would be better if we had a second scorer next to him to take the load off. TJ Ford needs guys who can actually shoot and finish and he'd average 12 apg and his poor shooting wouldn't matter. If David Noel could be paired with LeBron, he'd be an all star.

I'm still waiting for one Bucks to be a man and step forward and claim his all star status on his own. Which is what all stars do anyways regardless of who surrounds them on the court. Larry Sanders is the closest chance we've got at the moment IMO.

[El Duderino]

I would love to see Monta gone because I think it helps the team overall (and he's an asset you need to cash in on) but I'd be lying if I said it helped Brandon that much. His problems aren't tied into Monta. Not being able to dribble right, inconsistent jump shot and his problems converting or passing once he gets into the lane aren't a problem that Monta is throwing on Brandon's shoulders. One thing that could help him with a more consistent guy is the nights where Brandon feels like he has to chuck up shots to pick up the slack, but honestly, for every one of those nights there's a night where Brandon chucks up those shots anyways. It'll be interesting to see how long the excuses for being inconsistent run with Brandon.

I agree. Brandon thinks shoot first and second because that's just who he is as a player. It's in his basketball DNA. He's been a scorer first before coming to the NBA.

Unlike some people, i don't mind point guards who shoot quite a bit and aren't say 8-9-10 assists per game guys. Generally point guards who are great passers and who have great court vision, that's something which mostly came natural to them. It isn't taught or learned as much a gift they possess. Brandon wasn't blessed with that gift.

He can pass decently enough though to be a quality PG if he simply wasn't such a bricklayer. If he could finish better in the paint and get to the line. Basically, if he could score more efficiently to justify his natural inclination to shoot so often. After nearly four seasons done though, i've seen very little from Jennings to hold out serious hope that he'll ever be noticeably better than he currently is.

[Baddy Chuck]

Well obviously Brandon would still have his weaknesses, but with better talent they become less magnified/important and I think it's painfully obvious that its much easier to be consistent with a smaller role than it is in an extremely large role.

Here's my thing though, if you are paying the guy ten million dollars or more a year you are doing so on the belief that he is still a 20 PPG with better efficiency even paired with more talent. You aren't paying him that money to take a backseat role and average 14 on good efficiency.

[ampd]

The splits ampd put up are the problem with Jenning. Those stats in wins are great. But then you realize we've also lost almost as many games where the bad stats appear.

So the question is why do we have the bad games? I chalk it up in a lot of the cases to matchups since most of the losses come against better teams. Better teams have better defenses that bother Brandon. And when he's bothered on his shooting there isn't a lot else he is able to do on the court to overcome that.

Occasionally he has bad games because the other team plays great D on him, or they sell out to take him away like the Lakers did, or like Miami did by putting Lebron on him in overtime of our first game against them. But really I think its more that his shot just isn't very consistent, and he seems to have trouble staying focused and involved in games where his shot isn't falling.

At least part of his drop in assist rate , etc is probably also due to the rest of our team being even less able to deal with better defenses also.

[mattg]

The question becomes, what happens with Jennings when you put him alongside a good offensive player who can take pressure off of him so he doesn't have to use so many offensive possessions because we have no chance to win if Jennings doesn't shoot a lot and shoot well. I'm talking about an efficient secondary(or even primary creator), not just an efficient catch and shoot player or something. Think about how good we look offensively at times playing Beno and Jennings together when beno is playing well, and now imagine that skillset in a SG or SF who could do it consistently.

how is this guy you describe to take the "load off jennings".... not monta ellis?

ellis big issue is his efficiency but that has nothing to do with what you just described as jennings "ideal" running mate. surely youre not suggesting that if ellis shot better that this would improve how jennings looks are you?

i hate the argument about how brandon would look if we paired him with a decent sg. wtf does that have to do with anything. how in the hell is another sg gonna help brandon unless he does all the things a damn pg is supposed to do for him. brandon is the pg... he doesnt play like one. he plays like a sg. the discussion should be how the rest of the team would look with a decent pg.

How is it not Ellis? Uhh because Ellis is inefficient, has terrible shot selection and isn't effective without the ball anymore. It's cut and dry. Ellis can act as a secondary handler just fine, but that's it.

The argument that Jennings plays like a SG not a PG is really dumb for a number of reasons. I'd prefer you to explain your position first so I can refute what you say and then expand upon it more in depth so I can enlighten you.

As for the notion that surrounding talent doesn't effect who you are as a player, I laugh. The role you're asked to play is everything. If I play in a pick up game and the rest of my team are total scrubs so that I have to run the point, be the main scorer, defend their best guy, and then I ask you guys to break down and analyze my game. You'll tell me that I'm inefficient because ill miss a bunch of shots I'd never normally take, I'd be turnover prone because there is no one to take the pressure off when they ramp up the defense, and my own defense would suffer because of the huge offensive responsibility on my shoulders. Now change things up and give me better teammates. Ask me to play off ball as a catch and shoot guy who doesn't have to handle the ball ever, and just defend all out. Now analyze my game. I'm gonna be mega efficient, and barely turn it over if ever, and my defense will be extremely bothersome. Same exact player, just a different role based on who else I play with.

People need to realize, Jennings has weaknesses as a player, but they aren't the driving cause of the bucks not being a great team, this is a roster composition problem. I've never said Jennings is good enough to lead you anywhere as the best player on the team, but that should be common sense. As a 3rd best guy though, in a smaller role? So you guys can continue to bitch and moan about Jennings not being able to play like a top 10 player every night, or you can be realistic and just realize the team needs better talent up top and shouldn't be banking on a 10th overall selection to carry you. And there's plenty of folks here like that, that realize this team goes nowhere until you can acquire a top end talent. That doesn't make Jennings a garbage player or not worth keeping though.

And baddy, where does your idea come from that guys who make 10 million have to be an efficient 20ppg instead of an efficient 16ppg? That's just silly to me in the current nba.