Brewhoop Podcast: Bucks Trade deadline/vets/youth

[zmanishere11]

I think the question should be how many people here would be satisfied IF IF IF IF IF the Bucks settled in like the current Phoenix team over the next year or two. I.e. good team, good coach, competitive but ultimately questions on how they take next step while their guys all get major raises and new contracts which limits roster flexibility.

I think the Suns are a great model for us, as we have 2 guys with higher ceilings than anyone on their roster.

Problem is - they're doing it with young guys they've picked up in trades / the draft.

We're dumping our young guys for 10 days of Kenyon Martin and playing Zaza Pachulia 30 minutes a night.

I'm just hoping Hammond finds a way to swap some of our vets for young guys with upside or draft picks at the deadline. If not - we'll have a bunch of expiring contracts to play with next year

[paulpressey25]

I don't really see anyone making, that having a solid and competitive organization could be a key component to keeping Giannis & Parker here long term.

I think that it an important point. Then again most of these guys take the super-max their Bird rights team can offer them.

Winning though does keep the media at bay somewhat from creating stories about whether they'd re-sign.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

I think the question should be how many people here would be satisfied IF IF IF IF IF the Bucks settled in like the current Phoenix team over the next year or two. I.e. good team, good coach, competitive but ultimately questions on how they take next step while their guys all get major raises and new contracts which limits roster flexibility.

a suns level team in the current east could challenge for ec finals every year. sure just like in the 80s there might be that Celtics/sixers wall wed struggle to get through. but it dosnt mean we wouldn't this time. all it would take is striking gold in a draft from a position we shouldn't. if were back to going from a good team to becoming a championship team all hinged off one exceptional draft then im on board.

[JimmyTheKid]

We really need to shutdown the notion that being merely "competitive" is any goal worth aspiring to.

This already seems so long ago...

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... -you-heard

"I didn't build my business trying to be mediocre, and I don't think anyone should."

With those words just a month after assuming control, new Milwaukee Bucks co-owner Marc Lasry sent a message to long-suffering Bucks fans that was both clear and meaningful: Longtime owner Herb Kohl’s aversion to a bottom-up rebuild was now officially dead, and “competitive” was no longer an acceptable level of long-term ambition.

But the new owners/FO have yet to make a single move that indicates they're straying from the plan. The only reason fans are constantly questioning the plan is because the Bucks are overachieving on the basketball court. If our record was 10-29 nobody would be making these Kohl era comparisons. Its really unfair.

[paulpressey25]

I think the Suns are a great model for us, as we have 2 guys with higher ceilings than anyone on their roster.

Problem is - they're doing it with young guys they've picked up in trades / the draft.

We're dumping our young guys for 10 days of Kenyon Martin and playing Zaza Pachulia 30 minutes a night.

You make a good point on PHX youth. We need to be accumulating more young guys. That said, some of our older guys are Kohl/Hammond legacies that we probably needed to trade before this season began, but many had no value.

I just remember how the Suns came into last season all ready to purposely tank, and that plan went out the window. So from a learning standpoint we've got to watch them and see how they work their way into a 50-55 game winner over the next year or two, or if they can't do it.

[Giannis Parker]

I think the question should be how many people here would be satisfied IF IF IF IF IF the Bucks settled in like the current Phoenix team over the next year or two. I.e. good team, good coach, competitive but ultimately questions on how they take next step while their guys all get major raises and new contracts which limits roster flexibility.

I think the Suns are a great model for us, as we have 2 guys with higher ceilings than anyone on their roster.

Problem is - they're doing it with young guys they've picked up in trades / the draft.

We're dumping our young guys for 10 days of Kenyon Martin and playing Zaza Pachulia 30 minutes a night.

I'm just hoping Hammond finds a way to swap some of our vets for young guys with upside or draft picks at the deadline. If not - we'll have a bunch of expiring contracts to play with next year

The Suns are playing Dragic, Tucker, and Green as major rotation pieces, 28 and older. Bledsoe is 25, only a few months younger than Bayless. The Morris twins are also 25. Plumlee is 26, Thomas 25. The only "Young" player in their rotation is Alex Len, 21 years of age, for about 20mpg. They have gotten their true youth the following minutes this season (does not seem like they are interested in developing their future, the way many here want a team to at least):

Warren - 122 minutes
Goodwin - 93 minutes
Ennis - 55 minutes

Is it hard to believe that in 3-4 years we are playing and winning through Knight, Marshall, Giannis, Parker, Middleton, Henson, Inglis, 2015 1st, 2016 1st, etc.....? Maybe all we have in 3-4 years is Giannis and Parker, and we made a huge 3 for 1 trade to get your 3rd piece with a caliber of Giannis and Parker, who knows, but if our current youth is on the roster in 3-4 years, with that experience and progression, they most certainly will be key cogs to our team.

[paulpressey25]

The Suns are playing Dragic, Tucker, and Green as major rotation pieces, 28 and older. Bledsoe is 25, only a few months younger than Bayless. The Morris twins are also 25. Plumlee is 26, Thomas 25. The only "Young" player in their rotation is Alex Len, 21 years of age, for about 20mpg. They have gotten their true youth the following minutes this season (does not seem like they are interested in developing their future, the way many here want a team to at least):

Warren - 122 minutes
Goodwin - 93 minutes
Ennis - 55 minutes

A couple things. The Suns players are older, that said, they actively worked the process to get young guys who hadn't panned out elsewhere on their roster. We've sort of done the same thing with Brandon Knight, Kendall Marshall and Middleton, which have been good moves.

But part of the reason those young guys you cite above are riding the pine is because PHX started to win, so they threw in the towel, decided to keep the winning momentum going and signed a guy like Isiah Thomas (turns 26 next month) to a $27mm deal in the off-season.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Phoenix's GM McDonough came up under Ainge in Boston and is taking his accumulate a bunch of assets and hope to pull off a consolidation trade for a "star" team building strategy. They were definitely going after Love but obviously the Wiggins offer was better. This might work but it takes two to tango in the trade game. Overall he's done a good job so far trading Dudley, Gortat's expiring, and Scola for Bledsoe, Plumlee, Green and two first rounders.

The other factor in their ability to get over the hump will be Len's development; he's been great since moving in the starting lineup. Still a long ways to go but he's got a big upside. They have also took a little different approach with young players; they drafted pretty raw guys in Len, Goodwin, Enis, and Warren (probably the most polished of the guys he's drafted but still only had 2 years in college) and have used practice and the d-league in this early stage of their development.

McDonough himself would be the first one to say they are FAR from a finished product and a contender. Really have to give it a year or two and see what their roster looks like before judging his team building strategy.

[raferfenix]

The Suns model is interesting if only considering that if they were in the East it'd be a totally different story.

That said, we don't know yet whether Bledsoe's extension will work out or whether they keep Dragic, and those are two big variables.

Either way it certainly is interesting to compare Hornacek and Kidd as coaches.

Exploring this part further, I'm not so worried about losing Giannis since restricted free agency helps us so much.

The argument I do agree with though is that Philly-style losing could negatively impact the development of young players. It certainly appears like Kidd compelling Giannis (and Parker for a time) to earn their minutes has had a significant impact.

Then again it doesn't seem like the tanking is killing Wiggins' development so there are degrees here. And who knows how Giannis would be doing if we geared everything around him right now, losses be-damned.

[paulpressey25]

Really have to give it a year or two and see what their roster looks like before judging his team building strategy.

But a centerpiece of his original plan in the summer of 2013 was to tank in the 2013-14 season for that deep draft. And things came together much too fast. The Bucks right now aren't at the level of success the Suns had last year, but the parallels are close. That's where I'm curious to see how he adjusts.

Suns already have one star in Bledsoe, but at the moment, the Sun's are sort of like the Bucks in that things look really good if Len turns into a top 25 player in the same sense the Bucks need both Jabari and Giannis to do. On the other hand, if Len just becomes a nice player (top 75) he's got to figure something else out.

The other area is the cap. Suns had to pay Bledsoe and the Morris twins (which were all good deals IMO) and will need to decide on Dragic very shortly. Bucks are going to need to decide on Knight, Kendall, Middleton, Henson, etc. soon.

[Newz]

But the new owners/FO have yet to make a single move that indicates they're straying from the plan. The only reason fans are constantly questioning the plan is because the Bucks are overachieving on the basketball court. If our record was 10-29 nobody would be making these Kohl era comparisons. Its really unfair.

I would say that playing veterans like Bayless, Mayo, Dudley, Ersan and Zaza over guys like Marshall, Wolters, Middleton and Henson (Some of those guys were even playing over Jabari and Giannis earlier in the year) is an indicator that not much has changed. I'd say cutting a player on a cheap rookie deal in order to sign a 37 year old is an indicator as well.

The focus hasn't been on developing young talent, it has been on winning games.

[paulpressey25]

I looked at the Suns from last year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2014.html

Forgot that Channing Frye played a ton last year and they let him walk (30 years old). They did play a lot of older guys a lot last year, save for Bledsoe and the Morris twins.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Really have to give it a year or two and see what their roster looks like before judging his team building strategy.

But a centerpiece of his original plan in the summer of 2013 was to tank in the 2013-14 season for that deep draft. And things came together much too fast. The Bucks right now aren't at the level of success the Suns had last year, but the parallels are close. That's where I'm curious to see how he adjusts.

Suns already have one star in Bledsoe, but at the moment, he's sort of like the Bucks in that things look really good if Len turns into a top 25 player in the same sense the Bucks need both Jabari and Giannis to do. On the other hand, if Len just becomes a nice player (top 75) he's got to figure something else out.

The other area is the cap. Suns had to pay Bledsoe and the Morris twins (which were all good deals IMO) and will need to decide on Dragic very shortly. Bucks are going to need to decide on Knight, Kendall, Middleton, Henson, etc. soon.

No doubt they will need some things to break right for them to get over the hump; but I think that can be said with any team building approach.

They should be applauded to not making a short sited move and dealing any youth/picks for vets at the deadline or last summer. It had to be tempting after they overachieved. Even though odds are long that Warren, Ennis, Goodwin, or even my guy Bogdan Bogdanovic will ever be stars there is that small chance you could strike gold.

They also resisted the temptation to overpay a 30+ year old Fry.

Edit - They did just make their first win now trade by dealing for Wright but only gave up what will likely be 2 2nd rounders and I think they will try to resign Wright after this season. I guess McDonough has coveted him for a while and see's him as the long term back up big.

What I like is they look to have a good foundation with McDonough, Hornacek, and an owner who's learned to stay out of the way. I wish I had more faith in Hammond so I could say the same about the Bucks.

To me the key with decisions on guys like Knight, Middleton, etc is to be smart. As long as they are on decent deals they should be movable and a positive asset. It's not without risk though as us bucks fans know after those awful Sanders and Ersan contracts.

[VooDoo7]

But the new owners/FO have yet to make a single move that indicates they're straying from the plan. The only reason fans are constantly questioning the plan is because the Bucks are overachieving on the basketball court. If our record was 10-29 nobody would be making these Kohl era comparisons. Its really unfair.

I would say that playing veterans like Bayless, Mayo, Dudley, Ersan and Zaza over guys like Marshall, Wolters, Middleton and Henson (Some of those guys were even playing over Jabari and Giannis earlier in the year) is an indicator that not much has changed. I'd say cutting a player on a cheap rookie deal in order to sign a 37 year old is an indicator as well.

The focus hasn't been on developing young talent, it has been on winning games.

Exactly. Not to mention signing Bayless (another one of Kidd's buddies) in the first place.

This has been 'win now' from the get go, which goes against everything we were led to believe before Kidd was hired.

[sidney lanier]

We're dumping our young guys for 10 days of Kenyon Martin and playing Zaza Pachulia 30 minutes a night.

Guys plural? We dumped Nate, but unless the Knicks pick him up to play with the replacements as they clear out their locker room (as one site is now speculating), he might sit in our dumpster until trash day.

As for playing Zaza extended minutes, got a better alternative? Henson's minutes will increase as he works himself back into shape, and Ersan is now back, but Kidd hasn't really had a choice.

[LUKE23]

No thanks to being the Suns. I'd like to aim for a title. The Suns clearly aren't to me, based on their moves.

[BuildingBucks]

The only player I see us trading is Ersan, they aren't going to trade anyone else. Made it clear that they are trying to win this year, but I wouldn't be surprised if we make a trade in the offseason. The chemistry is too good with this team for them to make a move and they won't mess that up.

[Ron Swanson]

If the Suns had two prospects (or even one) with the potential ceiling of Giannis and Jabari then I could see it, but they don't, so I don't see the comparison.

It all comes back to the same issue. You have to have at least one or two potential stars in house. If not, you have to acquire them by any means necessary. Phoenix lacks that one blue-chip prospect that might put them over the top. Same could be said for a team like the Raptors. Add in a Jabari, Wiggins, or Giannis level prospect and both those teams are most likely championship contenders in 2-3 years.

Our situation is closer to what the Wizards currently have going if anything. The downside of taking that path is that you don't want to be the Pelicans and surround your 21 year old star with overpaid veterans too early. Those Holiday, Gordon, Evans, Anderson, and Asik contracts absolutely kill any roster flexibility and cap their future

[fam3381]

Frank and Steve do a podcast. Von Horn dances around the question a number of us have struggled with. Good listen. Only critique is Frank recorded this on 1/4 and held it until now. No Kenyon talk. They needed to either update or run it when recorded next time. Then again, they probably wanted shelf product during the London trip break.

Yeah, unfortunately Steve and I don't have many opportunities to record together, so we usually end up binge-recording a few topics and then Steve edits and publishes them over the course of a week or so (this is also why we don't even try to do more perishable stuff like game reaction-type stuff). The Martin/Wolters timing def was unfortunate but we decided to run this recording as-is.

We never got around to a more substantive discussion about Kidd, but in broader terms I would def say he has much higher potential than someone like Skiles simply because he appears capable of building real relationships with guys. Still, in the near term I think there are some similarities in that both guys bring a base level of competence in getting energy/effort out of middling talent...you're going to have a tough time tanking with either.

[paulpressey25]

but in broader terms I would def say he has much higher potential than someone like Skiles simply because he appears capable of building real relationships with guys. Still, in the near term I think there are some similarities in that both guys bring a base level of competence in getting energy/effort out of middling talent...you're going to have a tough time tanking with either.

And that's the key elephant in the room where we struggle to reach middle ground on this board. I think everyone recognizes that the chance for Kidd to be much better than Skiles is likely. For the simple fact Kidd was a HOF and Skiles was a journeyman, Kidd is going to get better respect of players and for a longer period of time.

That said, people all have the issue of recency here, and Skiles left as a key part of the mess we all saw from 2011-2013. People forget that the vast majority of this board loved the guy right after he arrived up through FTD in 2010. Again, he was runner up COY in his second season.

Why didn't Skiles succeed after FTD? Well, part of it is on him and part of it is on the fact that Bogut and Jennings did NOT become franchise cornerstones and top 20 NBA players. In the meantime, Skiles kept things afloat enough to prevent young guys from getting major playing time and prevent the Bucks from a top five pick.

I love the faith people have the Parker and Giannis will become top 20 players. There is legit hope with those two guys. But I also think this team would be dumb to not keep turning this roster over with a longer-term goal in mind.