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New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87)

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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1821 » by midranger » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:04 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
soboMP3 wrote:Perhaps not directly but the "Barrett just wants to fund his trolley" rhetoric from all three of you basically insinuates that if he wasn't funding the streetcar he could easily fund the arena. Fact is the streetcar is over half funded by federal dollars and the rest by TIF districts setup in the tax areas the streetcar will go through.


There are two holes with this line of thought.

First, one of the TIF's that Barrett has "created" for the trolley is already fully built out and providing tax dollars to the City's general fund. Barrett and Bauman did a political slight of hand and took that district off the tax rolls and are calling it a new TIF which allows them to siphon general fund dollars.

Secondly, since even the streetcar supporters admit the thing won't pay for itself, there is an estimated $1.8 million in annual operating subsidy required in year one. Likely to rise in future years. During the hearings on the project, opponents asked how that would be paid. Bauman said that he'd have the City raise parking rates and parking fees and fines to cover that subsidy.

$1.8 million covers the bond debt on about $25 million of money the City could bring to the table on the Arena. Add in the money they are diverting from the general fund in the already built out TIF, and we are talking a $50 million dollar payment Barrett and Bauman could put in to the arena.



Exactly. We understand exactly how a TIF works. I'm not sure sure soho does (irrelevant Seinfeld references not withstanding). What Barrett has done is stolen taxes from a district and called it a TIF. You can do that anywhere.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1822 » by HaroldinGMinor » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:09 pm

Raisnets wrote:Can anyone tell me the make up of the Sacramento arena deal?



Yes, but it would be quicker for you to google it.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1823 » by paulpressey25 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:10 pm

Let me offer one thought for the guys who really support the streetcar and the arena. Make sure you are at that County Board hearing on June 9th in Bucks gear at 5:30 at the War Memorial Center on the lakefront.

If only 50 or 75 of you show up, your anti-streetcar nemesis Charlie Sykes will have a field day and gleefully proclaim that no one cares about the Bucks in Milwaukee. If you want to stick it to Sykes, be at that hearing. Hope that's some motivation.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1824 » by soboMP3 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:10 pm

midranger wrote:Exactly. We understand exactly how a TIF works. I'm not sure sure soho does (irrelevant Seinfeld references not withstanding). What Barrett has done is stolen taxes from a district and called it a TIF. You can do that anywhere.

I understand perfectly well, thanks. I guess if you guys think the 9.7million over several years he has "stolen" is what gets the arena deal done, then more power to you.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1825 » by soboMP3 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:13 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:Let me offer one thought for the guys who really support the streetcar and the arena. Make sure you are at that County Board hearing on June 9th in Bucks gear at 5:30 at the War Memorial Center on the lakefront.

If only 50 or 75 of you show up, your anti-streetcar nemesis Charlie Sykes will have a field day and gleefully proclaim that no one cares about the Bucks in Milwaukee. If you want to stick it to Sykes, be at that hearing. Hope that's some motivation.

I'm going to try as hard as I can. Its about time they have one of these things when people can actually attend (instead of during business hours). I also think people should get together for drinks after.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1826 » by soboMP3 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:15 pm

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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1827 » by BMatt07 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:23 pm

EastSideBucksFan wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:one thing i will say is, if the state ends up funding a majority of the public money we should change our name to the wisconsin bucks. If milwaukee doesn't want to fund this to the same level as the state then the team should at least market the state as a whole and not just the city of milwaukee



Why do you think one of the new logos is a state logo?


I mean, it works for other teams just fine.

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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1828 » by midranger » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:24 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:Let me offer one thought for the guys who really support the streetcar and the arena. Make sure you are at that County Board hearing on June 9th in Bucks gear at 5:30 at the War Memorial Center on the lakefront.

If only 50 or 75 of you show up, your anti-streetcar nemesis Charlie Sykes will have a field day and gleefully proclaim that no one cares about the Bucks in Milwaukee. If you want to stick it to Sykes, be at that hearing. Hope that's some motivation.


If this were 1915 you could take the street car that the city ripped out to pave Lincoln Memorial for cars that people actually use. Everything that's old is new again. :roll:
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1829 » by humanrefutation » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:42 pm

People in this thread complain about politicians being unable to work together because of their political allegiances, and yet, you have a message board that's entirely comprised of hardcore Bucks fans who can't discuss a potential arena deal without resorting to partisan hackery and name-calling.

I'm not surprised, obviously. But it's interesting to me.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1830 » by soboMP3 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:44 pm

Yes, and I'm guilty of it. I just need to ignore when people get their little chides in at the streetcar project, which I obviously support. So, I apologize xTitan, Raisnets, midranger. Perhaps a beer after Monday's event? :)
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1831 » by paulpressey25 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:48 pm

humanrefutation wrote:People in this thread complain about politicians being unable to work together because of their political allegiances, and yet, you have a message board that's entirely comprised of hardcore Bucks fans who can't discuss a potential arena deal without resorting to partisan hackery and name-calling.

I'm not surprised, obviously. But it's interesting to me.


Right now we need to quit fighting. We can do all that a month from now.

If liberals want to get political, showing up to support the arena on June 9th sticks it to Charlie Sykes. Use that as motivation.

If conservatives want to get political, showing up to support the arena on June 9th is needed to voice out to the County Board that they need to sell this property and get with the program. I'm concerned the County Board will pick apart this thing under some crazy belief that they can play hardball here with the Bucks because a better offer for that moonscape will be right around the corner.

In any event, if the County won't sell the property cheap, this deal is dead then. No Bucks. No Arena. We can all agree that would be a bad outcome.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1832 » by HurricaneKid » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:49 pm

There is some ugly name calling in here considering the general lack of understanding how bad the two sides of the aisle are trying to screw each other over rather than get this project moving (and a basic understanding of the proposals should indicate which is more at fault but I'm not going to get into that). The abject failure in the fundamental growth figures is staggering as well (NBA salary cap has to be >500M 22 years from now for the bond to EVER have anything but a neg am).

Its a particularly ugly point to be at considering how far along we should be. And the fact that the board has fractured so much is evidence of that.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1833 » by Badgerlander » Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:53 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:Let me offer one thought for the guys who really support the streetcar and the arena. Make sure you are at that County Board hearing on June 9th in Bucks gear at 5:30 at the War Memorial Center on the lakefront.

If only 50 or 75 of you show up, your anti-streetcar nemesis Charlie Sykes will have a field day and gleefully proclaim that no one cares about the Bucks in Milwaukee. If you want to stick it to Sykes, be at that hearing. Hope that's some motivation.


It's not being billed (aside from your save the bucks thread) as a show up and show your support for the Bucks event in the Media so I really wouldn't expect there to be more than 50-75?
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1834 » by midranger » Wed Jun 3, 2015 4:03 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:People in this thread complain about politicians being unable to work together because of their political allegiances, and yet, you have a message board that's entirely comprised of hardcore Bucks fans who can't discuss a potential arena deal without resorting to partisan hackery and name-calling.

I'm not surprised, obviously. But it's interesting to me.


Right now we need to quit fighting. We can do all that a month from now.

If liberals want to get political, showing up to support the arena on June 9th sticks it to Charlie Sykes. Use that as motivation.

If conservatives want to get political, showing up to support the arena on June 9th is needed to voice out to the County Board that they need to sell this property and get with the program. I'm concerned the County Board will pick apart this thing under some crazy belief that they can play hardball here with the Bucks because a better offer for that moonscape will be right around the corner.

In any event, if the County won't sell the property cheap, this deal is dead then. No Bucks. No Arena. We can all agree that would be a bad outcome.



If the arena gets agreed to... and surrounding development is eminent... as has been suggested here.... that surrounding moonscape property becomes VERY valuable the moment shovels are in the ground.

Why would the state/county/city pay for something to make the land valuable AND also give the land away? Especially without a huge amount of committed private money (i.e. cash in hand)? This makes zero sense.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1835 » by midranger » Wed Jun 3, 2015 4:05 pm

HurricaneKid wrote:There is some ugly name calling in here considering the general lack of understanding how bad the two sides of the aisle are trying to screw each other over rather than get this project moving (and a basic understanding of the proposals should indicate which is more at fault but I'm not going to get into that). The abject failure in the fundamental growth figures is staggering as well (NBA salary cap has to be >500M 22 years from now for the bond to EVER have anything but a neg am).

Its a particularly ugly point to be at considering how far along we should be. And the fact that the board has fractured so much is evidence of that.

Is that the real figure at the current income tax rate? I was wondering what it was.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1836 » by drew881 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 4:13 pm

soboMP3 wrote: I saw Barrett at the pet store on North Ave in Tosa over the weekend, I should've tried to ask him what else, if anything, they can do.


I don't think they sell ostriches at the pet store.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1837 » by HurricaneKid » Wed Jun 3, 2015 4:42 pm

midranger wrote:
HurricaneKid wrote:There is some ugly name calling in here considering the general lack of understanding how bad the two sides of the aisle are trying to screw each other over rather than get this project moving (and a basic understanding of the proposals should indicate which is more at fault but I'm not going to get into that). The abject failure in the fundamental growth figures is staggering as well (NBA salary cap has to be >500M 22 years from now for the bond to EVER have anything but a neg am).

Its a particularly ugly point to be at considering how far along we should be. And the fact that the board has fractured so much is evidence of that.

Is that the real figure at the current income tax rate? I was wondering what it was.


The figures are intentionally opaque but thats about right. And it has to be >800M after 30 years. The way they calculated the growth of the state income tax is rather hilarious. They basically are taking the player salary growth over the next several years and assuming that as constant growth over the next 30 years. I'm bullish on basketball (I think football will wane during that period) but that is a criminal projection. It is all but an unsecured loan the State/County/City will have to pay over the course of 30 years without the benefit of property taxes on the entire area.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1838 » by MVP2110 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 4:59 pm

EastSideBucksFan wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:one thing i will say is, if the state ends up funding a majority of the public money we should change our name to the wisconsin bucks. If milwaukee doesn't want to fund this to the same level as the state then the team should at least market the state as a whole and not just the city of milwaukee



Why do you think one of the new logos is a state logo?

Yes but having a jersey that says Wisconsin will market Wisconsin more than that logo does, that logo is a start but the bucks still feel like Milwaukee's team not Wisconsin's. The bucks still market milwaukee more, If the state pays more than milwaukee than the state should be marketed more
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1839 » by MickeyDavis » Wed Jun 3, 2015 5:41 pm

A majority of GOP Senate want this out of the budget

A majority of GOP senators want to pull from the state budget bill a proposal to put public money toward a new arena for the Milwaukee Bucks, the latest sign of the challenges the deal faces.

This obstacle doesn't mean the Bucks proposal is dead or even out of the state budget proposal. One alternative being talked about by GOP senators, for instance, is adding a new Bucks proposal to the budget as an amendment on the Senate floor, a strategy that they hope could draw some Democratic votes from Milwaukee lawmakers for a stadium deal.

The turmoil among Republicans over the Bucks arena and funding for road building in the state has delayed votes in the budget committee for at least a week on the state's tax and spending plan.

Sen. Tom Tiffany of Hazelhurst, a member of the Joint Finance Committee, was typical of the cautious criticism being voiced by many of his GOP colleagues in interviews with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, which has reached out to all Republican senators this week. Tiffany said he "hadn't ruled out supporting" the Bucks arena, but would prefer to see it taken out of the budget.

"In a perfect world, yes, it would be better to see it out of the budget," he said. "But is that the way it plays out?"

Myranda Tanck, a spokeswoman for Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-Juneau), said Wednesday that he hadn't ruled out the possibility of removing the Bucks proposal from the budget bill. But Tanck emphasized that no deal has been announced publicly and that GOP leaders are still holding out hope of convincing their colleagues once all the details of an agreement are made known.

A spokesman for Senate Minority Leader Jennifer Shilling (D-La Crosse) had no immediate comment.

On Tuesday, Kit Beyer, a spokeswoman for Assembly Speaker Robin Vos (R-Rochester), said that the "negotiations continue over whether the arena would be taken up as a separate bill."

Republicans control the Senate 19-14. Based on the details of the Bucks plan as reported in the Journal Sentinel, 10 of those GOP senators want to see it removed from the budget, with some flatly demanding it and others saying it's simply the best option.

Those senators are: Senate President Mary Lazich of New Berlin, Rob Cowles of Allouez, Sheila Harsdorf of River Falls, Devin LeMahieu of Oostburg, Steve Nass of Whitewater, Roger Roth of Appleton, Van Wanggaard of Racine, Jerry Petrowski of Marathon, Terry Moulton of Chippewa Falls, and Tiffany.

"I would see prefer seeing it as separate legislation coming out of the budget," said Harsdorf, another member of the powerful budget committee.

"I'd rather have it out than in," Roth agreed.

An 11th GOP senator, Paul Farrow of Pewaukee, wants to have the full Senate vote on the Bucks proposal, either as separate legislation or as a budget amendment. That second strategy might give Fitzgerald and other GOP leaders a way to escape the tight spot they find themselves in, Republican sources said.

The Joint Finance Committee has not yet taken up the arena financing proposal that Gov. Scott Walker put into his budget bill, but it's been clear for weeks that it doesn't have enough support to pass the Legislature. GOP leaders and the Bucks have been privately negotiating an alternative.

Sources have told the Journal Sentinel that under that new plan the downtown arena would cost the public at least $400 million — including borrowing and interest, taxes, debt collections and other forms of public financing.

If the budget committee puts that alternative into the budget, rank-and-file Republicans and Democrats in the Senate and Assembly would not have to vote on the Bucks plan as an individual item, only on the budget as a whole.

All Democrats are certain to vote against the GOP budget, giving them an easy choice. Republican lawmakers opposed to the Bucks plan would have to decide whether its inclusion was enough to make them vote against their party's budget.

In the Senate, only two Republicans can vote against the budget and still have it pass. Nass is already considered a difficult yes vote for Fitzgerald.

But if the Bucks deal were added as an amendment on the Senate floor, some Milwaukee Democrats might be willing to vote for that proposal. That would potentially give some vulnerable Republican senators the ability to vote against the proposal specifically and then vote for the budget, once it was included.

But at this point, that's merely the speculation of statehouse insiders.

Rep. David Bowen (D-Milwaukee) and Sen. Chris Larson (D-Milwaukee) gave little encourage to the idea Tuesday, saying that they have been in only one meeting with the Bucks and no meetings with Republicans over the still-private negotiations over the deal. Both men said they're not ready to vote for an agreement without seeing it and that forcing a floor vote on the proposal might well kill it.

Another Milwaukee Democrat, Rep. Evan Goyke, questioned whether Senate Republicans would be willing to pull the Bucks proposal out of the budget, even if a majority wants that.

"I'll believe in the solidity of their spine when I see it," he said.
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Re: New Bucks Arena Thread (Bucks Seek Entire Park East pg 87) 

Post#1840 » by paulpressey25 » Wed Jun 3, 2015 5:45 pm

HurricaneKid wrote: The way they calculated the growth of the state income tax is rather hilarious. They basically are taking the player salary growth over the next several years and assuming that as constant growth over the next 30 years. .


Interestingly enough, the growth over 30-years was identical to the actual growth rate in NBA salaries from 1983 to 2013.

You can make all sorts of arguments that can't continue, etc, etc but it did line up with historical growth rates. And that's during a period where inflation was coming down over time not up.

I don't disagree with the idea that the growth rates are extremely optimistic. As some have said, who knows if there is NBA basketball in 30-years or if society has moved onto something different. That said, the new plan doesn't require the jock tax revenues to cover $220 million in bonds. Only the $50 State and $50mm County portions. You can easily carry those with player revenues under the new TV contract and still have money left over.
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