Is the Bucks roster in better, same or worse shape than when LED took over?

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

how about this?

if we offered philly a package of ANY 3 dudes on our roster besides MAP.... do they hand over that lakers pick? I think we get laughed at with that offer.

To be fair, it's one of the best assets in the league that's traded hands over the last few years. No team could realistically acquire it or the Nets pick swap without giving up any of their 3 best young assets.

we could have had that pick for just knight and kept our 3 best young assets. so don't give me that no team could acquire it business. we had the extra assets just lying around when LED and kidd came along.

we could have dealt sanders before his value completely bottomed out and we had to eat his salary too. a child could have seen that coming and we completely crapped the bed with it. we should have multiple assets from both those guys and instead we have mcw and cash on the books.

how the hell anybody says the talent is better now when we don't have a single guy on the roster we could deal for a #1 is beyond me. let me repeat that. we don't have a single player on this roster we could get a #1 for. this roster is generally trash that were praying will work because they can shoot the 3 and maybe play some team ball. but regardless the talent on this team sucks. even our lotto pick is a 25 year old joker who pulled the wool over this teams eyes. seriously it blows my mind how inept weve been here the last 2 years. LED and kidd have been a clown show

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Well the one constant is Hammond so there's really no excuses to be made for him anymore

so in comparing the 2014 roster to the 2016 roster you say the one constant is Hammond? what am I missing? kidd and LED were absolutely constants over that time too. hell they came in meddling and started calling the shots instantly and then you want to talk about Hammond?

the Dudley deal with the clips was the last one that was 100% hammond that I know of. the rest of that 2014 roster we know he acquired too. knight and sanders were 100% on him. but most of the moves since I just don't put at his feet from what we know about the dynamic of this team since kidd arrived. maybe blowing the maker pick i'll lay on Hammond too. that has his signature on it I guess.

but you know what? who cares. throw them all out. first time ive said it to include Hammond but I'm sick of him going along with this bull. so throw them all out. but this idea that Hammond getting replaced with the LED/kidd buttbuddy arrangement staying in place is ever going to fix anything is stupid. the owners giving kidd ultimate authority when he got here has been what the problem is. that arrangement is the issue. its kidd that needs to go.

[Badgerlander]

So our roster now vs the Pacers roster last season


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[paulpressey25]

Well the one constant is Hammond so there's really no excuses to be made for him anymore

It is both Hammond and the chaotic structure of the front office decision making process. Neither have changed.

[Shaffty]

Its obviously better and anyone who doesn't think so is just being negative for the sake of being negative.

Brandon Knight - Delly = For Role and what we need from them, and as an overall player. Delly is better

Ersan Ilyasova - Michael Beasley? - Idk we don't really have back up Power Forwards. and Ers is better

Larry Sanders - Greg Monroe - The age old question take the guy who is good on the court bad in the Locker room or bad off the court good in the locker room. Greg is probably better, and if he accepts 6th man Enes Kanter role he can lock it up. Greg is better

ZaZa Pachulia - Miles Plumlee - Oh zaza you were great. and If we had re signed you and this was your last year you'd be better. Zaza

John Henson - John Henson - John Henson is WAY better than John Henson any one who would rather have John Henson over John Henson is an idiot and should be banned, JOHN HENSON FOREVER

Nate Wolters - Malcom Brogdon - Malcom Brogdon, is better and I haven't even seen him play in the NBA

OJ Mayo - MCW - WOW This is tough. MCW

Caron Butler - Jason Terry - Sorry Woefull but JET is gunna be better on the court, and not a - off the court. Obviously Caron would be better locker room guy with the MKE roots but meh. JET wins

Carlos Delfino - Telly - Well Telly does have two feet so..TELLY

Miroslav Raduljica - Thon Maker - Thon would have to be like ....40? to not win this


So thats 2-7 in favor of post LED or 0-9 if its Ers vs Telly Beasley vs Delfino

plus the vast improvments to marketing, training staff, practice quality and over all preception of the team.

Its impossible not to like what the Owners have done so far. Sure they've had some screw ups since they are brand new at this thats not SHOCKING. But they've done a pretty great job.


After re reading this maybe Ers vs Telly is better, and I take Telly 10/10 times

[Badgerlander]

I'll take Mirza over Ersan every time

[LuessiT]

The question is: If the goal is to win the title, is our young core better than the one of other teams?

Utah: While lacking superstar talent (yet), there is a lot more overall talent on Utahs roster with Gobert, Favors, Hayward, Hood, Exum, Burks and Lyles.

Minnesota: Got their superstar with KAT, second possible star with Wiggins, also multiple highly touted prospects with LaVine, Dunn and Rubio.

76ers: Their roster is a mess right now, but if they manage to turn their value into a functioning lineup, they're in a decent situation.

Boston: They can win right now and have the assets to win later.

Honestly, I think we're in a worse spot than those teams and it's not like GS is falling down a cliff.

[DingleJerry]

I would pick the current roster but it's a heck of a lot closer than it should be.

Overall, my take away from this type of comparison and just overall how it's gone so far under new owners is that they have essentially ran the team in the same playoff chasing mindset that we were all sick of with Kohl. So I'm a bit disappointed in that sense overall.

[M-C-G]

A surprising lot has changed since then, but I haven't really seen a credible argument that we aren't better now. Our top 3 are better than they were, and our just about across the board, I like our options 4-15 better today, if for no other reason than they fit around the top 3.

This doesn't take in to account fiscal flexibility which is worse, but that's what happens when you find star players, you are going to have to pay them like stars...Our mistake was paying a guy that wasn't a star like a star and a guy that isn't quite a starter like a starter X 2.

EDIT: I am going to rescind the part about a credible argument, as I haven't read through the entire thread.

[DingleJerry]

Knight or Delly
Ilyasova or Teletovic
Sanders or Monroe
Pachulia or Plumlee
Wolters or MCW
Mayo or Beasley
Butler or Terry
Delfino or Novak
Raduljica or Vaughn

wow. depressing to think of it this way

After my gut reaction thinking now is slightly better, I went back and look at this and now I'd slightly pick the old one. I can see argument that if you throw Maker/Bogdon in there it helps. But considering you've had two more first rounders since, and the ability to trade Knight, Ersan, Dudley, Zaza etc for more pieces it's quite disappointing really.

[FlagsFlyForever]

A surprising lot has changed since then, but I haven't really seen a credible argument that we aren't better now. Our top 3 are better than they were, and our just about across the board, I like our options 4-15 better today, if for no other reason than they fit around the top 3.

We have Giannis, Middleton, and Jabari because of Kohl.

We have Delly, MCW, Mirza, Monroe, Vaughn because of LED.


Yes our big three are better now. They would have been better today if Kohl was still the owner.

I don't think anybody LED has brought in is a difference maker. Our future is bright but everything great about this roster is a remnant of Kohl's tenure.

[bigkurty]

A surprising lot has changed since then, but I haven't really seen a credible argument that we aren't better now. Our top 3 are better than they were, and our just about across the board, I like our options 4-15 better today, if for no other reason than they fit around the top 3.

We have Giannis, Middleton, and Jabari because of Kohl.

We have Delly, MCW, Mirza, Monroe, Vaughn because of LED.


Yes our big three are better now. They would have been better today if Kohl was still the owner.

I don't think anybody LED has brought in is a difference maker. Our future is bright but everything great about this roster is a remnant of Kohl's tenure.

That will be a bittersweet pill for Kohl to swallow if he finally built the championship winning core just as he sold the team.

[M-C-G]

A surprising lot has changed since then, but I haven't really seen a credible argument that we aren't better now. Our top 3 are better than they were, and our just about across the board, I like our options 4-15 better today, if for no other reason than they fit around the top 3.

We have Giannis, Middleton, and Jabari because of Kohl.

We have Delly, MCW, Mirza, Monroe, Vaughn because of LED.


Yes our big three are better now. They would have been better today if Kohl was still the owner.

I don't think anybody LED has brought in is a difference maker. Our future is bright but everything great about this roster is a remnant of Kohl's tenure.

Maybe I mistook the question, but isn't it are our 4-15 on the roster better than or better now. 2013 season;

Knight, Sessions, Middleton, Ersan, Henson, Mayo, Sanders, Adrien, ZaZa, Giannis, Butler, Wolters, Ridnour, Neal, Udoh were our top minutes played on the season.

If everyone was healthy, this is what I think our minutes would look like
Giannis, Midds, Jabari, Delly, MCW, Mirza, Monroe, Plum, Brogdon, Henson, Vaughn, Jet, Beasley, Thon, Novak

I don't even see a scenario where someone could prefer option A, especially when you get into that 8-15 (with the exception of Giannis)

Is that to the credit of LED? Maybe, maybe not, but at least during their reign we appear to have found an identity and are finding pieces that fit around our core. That is progress, and immense amount of progress IMO

[DingleJerry]

I was basing it off the list at the beginning of the thread. Simple way to look at it for me regarding non MAP players. Larry and Knight were better than anyone on our current roster after MAP. It's a tad skewed because it's tough to blame anyone for Larry but we can't now act like he wasn't really freaking good before he got too high.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

The main issue for me is we should have oh so much more on our balance sheet. Unfortunately, scratching the backs of agents, buddies, and former teammates takes precedence. Small market, so we're in no position to be pissing away draft picks or letting your coach run the show. Hire good people and then you let those people do their jobs. Same problem as before thus far.

"Look at these idiots posting ideas, like they know what they're doing. Count the zeroes and commasssssssssssssssssss"

As has been mentioned, we have now had THREE offseason and have endured a pathetic pack of progress with the rest of the roster. We have squandered assets, including cap space over that time period which could have been used to increase our other assets (absorb salary in exchange for a draft pick(s))

We could still have the Clippers 2017 1st, the Lakers 2017 1st, and we could have had a better 2015 1st and a better 2016 1st, not to mention better 2nds in both those drafts.

Out of what should be AT LEAST SIX quality assets, we have only three: Vaughn, Maker, and Brogdon.

Maker could very well pan out, but apart from him, the three core assets (MAP) came from prior ownership. The new owners needed to do a good job building around those assets, and they've instead done a horrendous job.

Look at Golden State. Joe Jacob and Peter Guber inherited Steph Curry from prior ownership, but drastically remade the roster around him. Monta Ellis and all sorts of other garbage out. Klay Thompson, Andrew Bogut, Harrison Barnes, Festus Ezeli, Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala, Shaun Livingston, Leandro Barbosa, Mo Speights. And Steve Kerr at coach. All surrounding Curry. And it led to a championship and a subsequent Finals appearance (almost a second title).

Compare that to what our owners have surrounded MAP with.

These three offseason were CRUCIAL to surrounding MAP with enough talent to turn into a championship contender, and these three offseason were SQUANDERED. It is very possible that the result will be a core of MAP will never be title contenders, and we will be no better off than Kohl's tenure.

[Chuck Diesel]

The main issue for me is we should have oh so much more on our balance sheet. Unfortunately, scratching the backs of agents, buddies, and former teammates takes precedence. Small market, so we're in no position to be pissing away draft picks or letting your coach run the show. Hire good people and then you let those people do their jobs. Same problem as before thus far.

"Look at these idiots posting ideas, like they know what they're doing. Count the zeroes and commasssssssssssssssssss"

As has been mentioned, we have now had THREE offseason and have endured a pathetic pack of progress with the rest of the roster. We have squandered assets, including cap space over that time period which could have been used to increase our other assets (absorb salary in exchange for a draft pick(s))

We could still have the Clippers 2017 1st, the Lakers 2017 1st, and we could have had a better 2015 1st and a better 2016 1st, not to mention better 2nds in both those drafts.

Out of what should be AT LEAST SIX quality assets, we have only three: Vaughn, Maker, and Brogdon.

Maker could very well pan out, but apart from him, the three core assets (MAP) came from prior ownership. The new owners needed to do a good job building around those assets, and they've instead done a horrendous job.

Look at Golden State. Joe Jacob and Peter Guber inherited Steph Curry from prior ownership, but drastically remade the roster around him. Monta Ellis and all sorts of other garbage out. Klay Thompson, Andrew Bogut, Harrison Barnes, Festus Ezeli, Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala, Shaun Livingston, Leandro Barbosa, Mo Speights. And Steve Kerr at coach. All surrounding Curry. And it led to a championship and a subsequent Finals appearance (almost a second title).

Compare that to what our owners have surrounded MAP with.

These three offseason were CRUCIAL to surrounding MAP with enough talent to turn into a championship contender, and these three offseason were SQUANDERED. It is very possible that the result will be a core of MAP will never be title contenders, and we will be no better off than Kohl's tenure.

Is anyone here in contact with Seth Partnow? If so this is a great post to share with him.

[paulpressey25]

The new owners needed to do a good job building around those assets, and they've instead done a horrendous job.

Where I can see another Kohl era parallel is with Delly. I think the guy was a fantastic signing and feel he'll be a big part of the upcoming season.

That said, I see him along the lines of prime Delfino, Ridnour or the year of Jared Dudley we had. The guy will impact wins greater than we think, but given his age and lack of athleticism, the ability to impact will only be for a couple seasons. So we'll celebrate overachieving this year (or next) but perhaps our core grouping of talent won't be strong enough to then absorb the loss or decline in play from a guy like Delly.

We need Giannis and Jabari to be all-stars and soon. It has to happen or we're back to being screwed again.

[Baddy Chuck]

We need Giannis and Jabari to be all-stars and soon. It has to happen or we're back to being screwed again.

That needs to happen but at this point I think it's probably a lot more likely to happen then getting a competent supporting cast around them by that time.

[emunney]

A good gm could pretty easily turn it around in time for their prime. Would just take someone who makes a lot more good moves than bad ones. And we've got two more years of Mr. 40%.

[freewhitemoon]

Compare that to what our owners have surrounded MAP with.

These three offseason were CRUCIAL to surrounding MAP with enough talent to turn into a championship contender, and these three offseason were SQUANDERED. It is very possible that the result will be a core of MAP will never be title contenders, and we will be no better off than Kohl's tenure.

Yeah, I agree. Giannis and Jabari may well become all stars/MVP type players and even then we'll always be wondering how good the team could've been if those 3 offseasons were not wasted. If we only end up with a couple ECF appearances with this core the funny thing is that Hammond and the rest of those clowns will pat themselves on the back thinking they've done a good job when an even mildly competent front office could've made that team a true contender.