Wisconsin Badgers Thread

[ShootingtheJ]

Way too late for Wahl. It's been gone for 5 years. Ethan Happ is a another good HS shooter they destroyed.

This is really something. You'd think a professional coach paid millions of dollars could look at the tape from high school and get them to shoot like they did in high school.

Or maybe, you know, these guys just aren't great shooters.

Wahl has never had any sort of touch. I mean, the guy consistently misses shots at the rim. It's just not in his wheelhouse and his FTs are a prime example of this.

He doesn't have touch anymore. Good shooter in HS, before he got ruined

[ShootingtheJ]

I look forward to Wahl getting a shot in the league or a high-end Euro League if so. Just like Nigel Hayes would be fixed by another team/program.

Way too late for Wahl. It's been gone for 5 years. Ethan Happ is a another good HS shooter they destroyed.

This is really something. You'd think a professional coach paid millions of dollars could look at the tape from high school and get them to shoot like they did in high school.

Or maybe, you know, these guys just aren't great shooters.

Lol, you'd also think that a highly paid coach would see on film that the game is changing, do to analytics, but Gard remains clueless. It's why most wanted him gone years ago.

[ShootingtheJ]

Imagine shooting a basketball your entire life and then blaming a head coach for "messing up your shot" just because it doesn't translate going up against D-1 athletes. Would be a pretty embarrassing/mental midget thing to believe if you're a competitive basketball player at any level. Some guys just can't shoot against better competition.

Imagine not realizing that the coaching staff changes shooting mechanics of their players to match their preferred outdated style.

Go watch Ethan Happ HS tape to realize how this staff ruins shooters. It's awestriking.

[ReasonablySober]

Imagine shooting a basketball your entire life and then blaming a head coach for "messing up your shot" just because it doesn't translate going up against D-1 athletes. Would be a pretty embarrassing/mental midget thing to believe if you're a competitive basketball player at any level. Some guys just can't shoot against better competition.

Imagine not realizing that the coaching staff changes shooting mechanics of their players to match their preferred outdated style.

Go watch Ethan Happ HS tape to realize how this staff ruins shooters. It's awestriking.

Players get bigger and stronger. They can't simply use their HS form. It has to change.

[Kerb Hohl]

Imagine shooting a basketball your entire life and then blaming a head coach for "messing up your shot" just because it doesn't translate going up against D-1 athletes. Would be a pretty embarrassing/mental midget thing to believe if you're a competitive basketball player at any level. Some guys just can't shoot against better competition.

Imagine not realizing that the coaching staff changes shooting mechanics of their players to match their preferred outdated style.

Go watch Ethan Happ HS tape to realize how this staff ruins shooters. It's awestriking.

Can you find me one of him actually shooting a 3 in a game? I'm on my 2nd or 3rd highlight reel and the longest shot I've seen him take is an elbow jumper mixed in with dozens of shots in the lane. And these are highlight mixes.

EDIT: I found one 3 he made in a highlight clip. You'd think an AAU where these guys can do whatever the hell they want, a guy taking 95+% of his shots in the lane might tell you something about the confidence of him shooting outside the 3-point line.

And to RS's point above - the shot he made looked slightly more fluid but it looks like he's a sophomore in HS still - pretty scrawny. It still was a huge hitched shot at his shoulder like he shot in college.

[MVP2110]

Imagine shooting a basketball your entire life and then blaming a head coach for "messing up your shot" just because it doesn't translate going up against D-1 athletes. Would be a pretty embarrassing/mental midget thing to believe if you're a competitive basketball player at any level. Some guys just can't shoot against better competition.

Imagine not realizing that the coaching staff changes shooting mechanics of their players to match their preferred outdated style.

Go watch Ethan Happ HS tape to realize how this staff ruins shooters. It's awestriking.

Are we faulting Gard or Bo for Hayes & Happ struggling as shooters? Happ had a full redshirt year under Bo and then as a Freshman played the first half of the season under Bo before Gard took over so seems hard to blame solely Gard for any shot changes that would have occurred up until that point? And Hayes had one good year shooting as a sophomore under Bo but was bad as a freshman junior and senior so it seems like the one year was likely just an outlier. As for Wahl he shot 65% from the FT Line as a high school senior and 10% from 3 that year so it hardly seems like he was some great shooter that Gard ruined

[Ron Swanson]

Yeah, if only Gard hadn't "ruined his shot", the guy who shot 46% from the line his senior year definitely would have been a pick & pop sniper for us.

[BigO]

Let's separate fact from fiction:

1) Wahl could never shoot. I saw him a bunch in high school and he couldn't shoot a lick. That was never his game. He did all the things he did well in Madison that he did in high school. I don't blame Gard for the fact neither he nor Happ improved in shooting. That's on them.

2) The reason Gard should be fired is that he can't recruit consistently top notch players. The bottom line in college ball is recruitment. I don't have a lot of problems with his actual coaching and I think he is really good at identifying talent. Talent that other coaches close the deal on.

3) This years team was a veteran team, just like next years team will be. Should they compete for a Big Ten title? Probably, because of the experience. But they won't be great and that's the goal every fan should have. That is, the possibility of being great. I don't think Gard can recruit the talent to get there.

4) This years team supposedly had four guys who were great defenders- Wahl, Hepburn, Blackwell, Klesmit. The defense sucked- none of them were as good as advertised.

[Kerb Hohl]

Let's separate fact from fiction:

1) Wahl could never shoot. I saw him a bunch in high school and he couldn't shoot a lick. That was never his game. He did all the things he did well in Madison that he did in high school. I don't blame Gard for the fact neither he nor Happ improved in shooting. That's on them.

2) The reason Gard should be fired is that he can't recruit consistently top notch players. The bottom line in college ball is recruitment. I don't have a lot of problems with his actual coaching and I think he is really good at identifying talent. Talent that other coaches close the deal on.

3) This years team was a veteran team, just like next years team will be. Should they compete for a Big Ten title? Probably, because of the experience. But they won't be great and that's the goal every fan should have. That is, the possibility of being great. I don't think Gard can recruit the talent to get there.

4) This years team supposedly had four guys who were great defenders- Wahl, Hepburn, Blackwell, Klesmit. The defense sucked- none of them were as good as advertised.

Agree with a lot of this. The game has changed - recruit low floor, high ceiling guys and fix your mistakes in the portal. I don't want to **** on a HS junior but I would not be going after Kinzinger-types or whatever anymore. Ditto on Wahl at this point. Or these guys are fine recruits if you are getting them in a massive class. Gard laser-focuses on these guys as his 2 man classes to build and mold over 4 years.

#4 - I think part of the issue of the rules changing. The defense sucked because they don't have superior bigger athletes that can keep you from getting into the lane and drawing a foul or just getting the ball over Crowl, who is not a rim protector.

[MVP2110]

Let's separate fact from fiction:

1) Wahl could never shoot. I saw him a bunch in high school and he couldn't shoot a lick. That was never his game. He did all the things he did well in Madison that he did in high school. I don't blame Gard for the fact neither he nor Happ improved in shooting. That's on them.

2) The reason Gard should be fired is that he can't recruit consistently top notch players. The bottom line in college ball is recruitment. I don't have a lot of problems with his actual coaching and I think he is really good at identifying talent. Talent that other coaches close the deal on.

3) This years team was a veteran team, just like next years team will be. Should they compete for a Big Ten title? Probably, because of the experience. But they won't be great and that's the goal every fan should have. That is, the possibility of being great. I don't think Gard can recruit the talent to get there.

4) This years team supposedly had four guys who were great defenders- Wahl, Hepburn, Blackwell, Klesmit. The defense sucked- none of them were as good as advertised.

I think this is a little bit off. I think Gard is a decent(not great but decent) recruiter. He's had 3 straight freshman make the 1st team All Freshman team in the Big 10, he landed a transfer commit that became 2nd team All Big Ten as a sophomore, the Freitag commitment was one of the highest rated recruits they've ever landed. I think it's moreso a development problem. Chucky, Crowl, Wahl all are decent players but none are great. Guys like Davison, Trice, Ford, Reuvers all similarly became solid but not great players. Johnny Davis is really his only big developmental win.

[Kerb Hohl]

Let's separate fact from fiction:

1) Wahl could never shoot. I saw him a bunch in high school and he couldn't shoot a lick. That was never his game. He did all the things he did well in Madison that he did in high school. I don't blame Gard for the fact neither he nor Happ improved in shooting. That's on them.

2) The reason Gard should be fired is that he can't recruit consistently top notch players. The bottom line in college ball is recruitment. I don't have a lot of problems with his actual coaching and I think he is really good at identifying talent. Talent that other coaches close the deal on.

3) This years team was a veteran team, just like next years team will be. Should they compete for a Big Ten title? Probably, because of the experience. But they won't be great and that's the goal every fan should have. That is, the possibility of being great. I don't think Gard can recruit the talent to get there.

4) This years team supposedly had four guys who were great defenders- Wahl, Hepburn, Blackwell, Klesmit. The defense sucked- none of them were as good as advertised.

I think this is a little bit off. I think Gard is a decent(not great but decent) recruiter. He's had 3 straight freshman make the 1st team All Freshman team in the Big 10, he landed a transfer commit that became 2nd team All Big Ten as a sophomore, the Freitag commitment was one of the highest rated recruits they've ever landed. I think it's moreso a development problem. Chucky, Crowl, Wahl all are decent players but none are great. Guys like Davison, Trice, Ford, Reuvers all similarly became solid but not great players. Johnny Davis is really his only big developmental win.

Name the greatest developmental coach in the history of basketball - he's not getting much more out of Steven Crowl or Brad Davison. These guys are limited athletically.

This is your problem.

I personally think Crowl has shown incredible development under Gard.

I think Bo Ryan got a little bit more out of some of these guys - but I think recruiting is entirely Gard's problem. It's not like any of these guys have gone on to shock us by ascending to the NBA or something (sans Aleem Ford making it due to COVID rosters).

There's nothing else you can add to Brad Davison or even Connor Essegian's game. They play below the rim, aren't big/strong/fast.

[MVP2110]

Let's separate fact from fiction:

1) Wahl could never shoot. I saw him a bunch in high school and he couldn't shoot a lick. That was never his game. He did all the things he did well in Madison that he did in high school. I don't blame Gard for the fact neither he nor Happ improved in shooting. That's on them.

2) The reason Gard should be fired is that he can't recruit consistently top notch players. The bottom line in college ball is recruitment. I don't have a lot of problems with his actual coaching and I think he is really good at identifying talent. Talent that other coaches close the deal on.

3) This years team was a veteran team, just like next years team will be. Should they compete for a Big Ten title? Probably, because of the experience. But they won't be great and that's the goal every fan should have. That is, the possibility of being great. I don't think Gard can recruit the talent to get there.

4) This years team supposedly had four guys who were great defenders- Wahl, Hepburn, Blackwell, Klesmit. The defense sucked- none of them were as good as advertised.

I think this is a little bit off. I think Gard is a decent(not great but decent) recruiter. He's had 3 straight freshman make the 1st team All Freshman team in the Big 10, he landed a transfer commit that became 2nd team All Big Ten as a sophomore, the Freitag commitment was one of the highest rated recruits they've ever landed. I think it's moreso a development problem. Chucky, Crowl, Wahl all are decent players but none are great. Guys like Davison, Trice, Ford, Reuvers all similarly became solid but not great players. Johnny Davis is really his only big developmental win.

Name the greatest developmental coach in the history of basketball - he's not getting much more out of Steven Crowl or Brad Davison. These guys are limited athletically.

This is your problem.

I personally think Crowl has shown incredible development under Gard.

I think Bo Ryan got a little bit more out of some of these guys - but I think recruiting is entirely Gard's problem. It's not like any of these guys have gone on to shock us by ascending to the NBA or something (sans Aleem Ford making it due to COVID rosters).

Crowl might be a bad example because I do think Crowl is a bit underrated, but my broader point still stands. I think for the most part Gard is decent at bringing talent into the program but has struggled to really develop anyone into a really good player outside of Johnny. It's not like Bo regularly developed NBA players either but he got more out of guys than Gard has.

[BigO]

Let's separate fact from fiction:

1) Wahl could never shoot. I saw him a bunch in high school and he couldn't shoot a lick. That was never his game. He did all the things he did well in Madison that he did in high school. I don't blame Gard for the fact neither he nor Happ improved in shooting. That's on them.

2) The reason Gard should be fired is that he can't recruit consistently top notch players. The bottom line in college ball is recruitment. I don't have a lot of problems with his actual coaching and I think he is really good at identifying talent. Talent that other coaches close the deal on.

3) This years team was a veteran team, just like next years team will be. Should they compete for a Big Ten title? Probably, because of the experience. But they won't be great and that's the goal every fan should have. That is, the possibility of being great. I don't think Gard can recruit the talent to get there.

4) This years team supposedly had four guys who were great defenders- Wahl, Hepburn, Blackwell, Klesmit. The defense sucked- none of them were as good as advertised.

I think this is a little bit off. I think Gard is a decent(not great but decent) recruiter. He's had 3 straight freshman make the 1st team All Freshman team in the Big 10, he landed a transfer commit that became 2nd team All Big Ten as a sophomore, the Freitag commitment was one of the highest rated recruits they've ever landed. I think it's moreso a development problem. Chucky, Crowl, Wahl all are decent players but none are great. Guys like Davison, Trice, Ford, Reuvers all similarly became solid but not great players. Johnny Davis is really his only big developmental win.

You gave a few examples, but none of these are high ceiling guys. The only one I am excited about is Freitag. And that's over a many year cycle. I think others have gone over how recruit and develop is much harder now with open transfer and NIL. It's why good coaches are leaving college ball.

The coaches, like at Duke, will continue to exist because they never relied on development. They are 100% recruiters and zero percent developers.

[Kerb Hohl]

I think this is a little bit off. I think Gard is a decent(not great but decent) recruiter. He's had 3 straight freshman make the 1st team All Freshman team in the Big 10, he landed a transfer commit that became 2nd team All Big Ten as a sophomore, the Freitag commitment was one of the highest rated recruits they've ever landed. I think it's moreso a development problem. Chucky, Crowl, Wahl all are decent players but none are great. Guys like Davison, Trice, Ford, Reuvers all similarly became solid but not great players. Johnny Davis is really his only big developmental win.

Name the greatest developmental coach in the history of basketball - he's not getting much more out of Steven Crowl or Brad Davison. These guys are limited athletically.

This is your problem.

I personally think Crowl has shown incredible development under Gard.

I think Bo Ryan got a little bit more out of some of these guys - but I think recruiting is entirely Gard's problem. It's not like any of these guys have gone on to shock us by ascending to the NBA or something (sans Aleem Ford making it due to COVID rosters).

Crowl might be a bad example because I do think Crowl is a bit underrated, but my broader point still stands. I think for the most part Gard is decent at bringing talent into the program but has struggled to really develop anyone into a really good player outside of Johnny.

Man, could not disagree more.

Brad freaking Davison and Nate Reuvers are not developing into stars because nobody is turning them into that.

When they got Davis, there was plenty of chatter of, "how is this guy only a 3-star recruit?" because he had elite burst and scoring ability.

The problem is that it's not 2004 anymore. Gard can do great things with Wahl or Crowl and these other programs have do to nothing...absolutely nothing other than walk to the portal to get Reink Mast or Domask or whatever who were similar caliber athletes and developed elsewhere.

[MVP2110]

Let's separate fact from fiction:

1) Wahl could never shoot. I saw him a bunch in high school and he couldn't shoot a lick. That was never his game. He did all the things he did well in Madison that he did in high school. I don't blame Gard for the fact neither he nor Happ improved in shooting. That's on them.

2) The reason Gard should be fired is that he can't recruit consistently top notch players. The bottom line in college ball is recruitment. I don't have a lot of problems with his actual coaching and I think he is really good at identifying talent. Talent that other coaches close the deal on.

3) This years team was a veteran team, just like next years team will be. Should they compete for a Big Ten title? Probably, because of the experience. But they won't be great and that's the goal every fan should have. That is, the possibility of being great. I don't think Gard can recruit the talent to get there.

4) This years team supposedly had four guys who were great defenders- Wahl, Hepburn, Blackwell, Klesmit. The defense sucked- none of them were as good as advertised.

I think this is a little bit off. I think Gard is a decent(not great but decent) recruiter. He's had 3 straight freshman make the 1st team All Freshman team in the Big 10, he landed a transfer commit that became 2nd team All Big Ten as a sophomore, the Freitag commitment was one of the highest rated recruits they've ever landed. I think it's moreso a development problem. Chucky, Crowl, Wahl all are decent players but none are great. Guys like Davison, Trice, Ford, Reuvers all similarly became solid but not great players. Johnny Davis is really his only big developmental win.

You gave a few examples, but none of these are high ceiling guys. The only one I am excited about is Freitag. And that's over a many year cycle. I think others have gone over how recruit and develop is much harder now with open transfer and NIL. It's why good coaches are leaving college ball.

The coaches, like at Duke, will continue to exist because they never relied on development. They are 100% recruiters and zero percent developers.

I mean I'd say Storr was a high ceiling recruit, Chucky definitely appeared to be a high ceiling guy, I think Blackwell could have a really high ceiling. Freitag is certainly a high ceiling recruit. I mean a coach doesn't just accidentally bring in 3 straight years of first team all freshman guys, that's not development, that's recruiting. And part of the issue is Gard hasn't been able to take those guys and develop them into more than they were their freshman year(remains to be seen with Blackwell)

[ReasonablySober]

Speaking of Blackwell, that'd be the guy I'd be worried about losing in the portal, not Storr.

[Kerb Hohl]

I think this is a little bit off. I think Gard is a decent(not great but decent) recruiter. He's had 3 straight freshman make the 1st team All Freshman team in the Big 10, he landed a transfer commit that became 2nd team All Big Ten as a sophomore, the Freitag commitment was one of the highest rated recruits they've ever landed. I think it's moreso a development problem. Chucky, Crowl, Wahl all are decent players but none are great. Guys like Davison, Trice, Ford, Reuvers all similarly became solid but not great players. Johnny Davis is really his only big developmental win.

You gave a few examples, but none of these are high ceiling guys. The only one I am excited about is Freitag. And that's over a many year cycle. I think others have gone over how recruit and develop is much harder now with open transfer and NIL. It's why good coaches are leaving college ball.

The coaches, like at Duke, will continue to exist because they never relied on development. They are 100% recruiters and zero percent developers.

I mean I'd say Storr was a high ceiling recruit, Chucky definitely appeared to be a high ceiling guy, I think Blackwell could have a really high ceiling. Freitag is certainly a high ceiling recruit. I mean a coach doesn't just accidentally bring in 3 straight years of first team all freshman guys, that's not development, that's recruiting. And part of the issue is Gard hasn't been able to take those guys and develop them into more than they were their freshman year(remains to be seen with Blackwell)

Yeah, Gard is starting to understand the post-2020 college sports world and showed it by getting Storr. Chryst completely refused to and that's why he was canned.

The problem is that Alabama, Illinois, Iowa State bring in like 5 of these guys each season and just move on from the 3-4 that don't work out. I think Gard actually gets it but it's maybe too late.

Oats, Underwood, etc. would've told Crowl to transfer 3 years ago. He's a great story, but Gard spent 2-3 years cultivating him into a solid player. Meanwhile, the modern coaches go out and get a higher ceiling guy instead.

[Kerb Hohl]

Speaking of Blackwell, that'd be the guy I'd be worried about losing in the portal, not Storr.

Eh, I think he's gonna stay but even if not...he's not as high of a ceiling player. Like, I'm not saying every single player is expendable and he's a guy that's got a higher ceiling as a really solid college player, but they could replace him even if so.

[ReasonablySober]

Speaking of Blackwell, that'd be the guy I'd be worried about losing in the portal, not Storr.

Eh, I think he's gonna stay but even if not...he's not as high of a ceiling player. Like, I'm not saying every single player is expendable and he's a guy that's got a higher ceiling as a really solid college player, but they could replace him even if so.

He's the new Nigel Hayes. Exactly the kind of guy Wisconsin needs to keep around.

[MikeIsGood]

Speaking of Blackwell, that'd be the guy I'd be worried about losing in the portal, not Storr.

Eh, I think he's gonna stay but even if not...he's not as high of a ceiling player. Like, I'm not saying every single player is expendable and he's a guy that's got a higher ceiling as a really solid college player, but they could replace him even if so.

They can replace him in a future where we do a better job with the transfer portal and/or recruiting (hopefully 'and').

It's not as easy in our current world. Losing Blackwell in a scenario where we keep Gard and either aren't committing more money to NIL/portal or Gard doesn't do better with what he has, that's a pretty big loss then.