I don't want LH to make a trade

[pilprin]

I think the time has come to rake the snake and remove LH. I do not want him making anymore trades that could further screw up this team...If that is possible.

A new GM needs to be brought in. Let him look over the squad and evaluate what a team should look like.

We have two SG's starting in Mo and Redd. IMHO one needs to go.

A true PG needs to be added. At this point I would not be upset in going with what we have until a Vet. PG could be added.

Bogut and YI are thebuilding blocks of this team. Everything else is expendable.

This team needs a GM who can create a cohesive team that have players that complement the core ones.

Simmons, CV, and possibly Gadz have no value as complimentary players. We have a hug quantity of mediocre players with little or no quality.

LH has had long enough to turn things around. The time has come to give someone else a chance...someone with serious credentials like Grunfeld had when he came in. Without that type of move, the cycle of crap will continue.

[Profound23]

Have to agree.

I don't want LH to make a trade, I want the next GM to make one.

[emunney]

Does it matter who the GM is if Kohl will only sign off on his worst ideas?

[Neapolitan Buck]

I don't want too, even if our bench is not playing like expected.

[yoyomayoma]

No quality GM candidates are going to take a job where the owner has final say over all personnel moves. This team is cursed until Kohl sells the team.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

I think the time has come to rake the snake and remove LH. I do not want him making anymore trades that could further screw up this team...If that is possible.

A new GM needs to be brought in. Let him look over the squad and evaluate what a team should look like.

We have two SG's starting in Mo and Redd. IMHO one needs to go.

A true PG needs to be added. At this point I would not be upset in going with what we have until a Vet. PG could be added.

Bogut and YI are thebuilding blocks of this team. Everything else is expendable.

This team needs a GM who can create a cohesive team that have players that complement the core ones.

Simmons, CV, and possibly Gadz have no value as complimentary players. We have a hug quantity of mediocre players with little or no quality.

LH has had long enough to turn things around.

Except that Larry Harris has never really had the opportunity to shape the team as he would like to. Kohl and Kohl's cronies are an extreme and consistent hindrance. Harris is widely considered to be a shrewd evaluator of talent and an up an coming GM within NBA circles. The absurd dysfunctional aspects of our franchise are well known.

To me, the only criticisms I see of Larry Harris that seem reasonable at this point was summed up pretty well by Epi recently. He likened Harris to a eunuch. Impotent, like a eunuch, and backbiting as a way of compensation for that impotence, like a eunuch. I'm paraphrasing Epi there, so hopefully I got that right.

Basically, Harris is a contributor to the dysfunction that has basically always existed during Kohl's tenure, but the cause of Harris contributing to that dysfunction is a byproduct of the preexisting dysfunction. That doesn't excuse Harris' contributions to the dysfunction, but that's what happens sometimes when a person who should have a certain level of power/influence isn't granted the appropriate power/influence. They try and exert influence through other avenues. As Epi has said, none of this is good for an organization as it permeates all the way to the product on the court.

The time has come to give someone else a chance...someone with serious credentials like Grunfeld had when he came in. Without that type of move, the cycle of crap will continue.

What would be the point? If Kohl and his cronies continue to operate as they have been, it really wouldn't matter if we bring in a different GM. And if we do bring in a GM and Kohl gets out of his way, then the real change is Kohl getting out of the way, something he could do NOW with Harris, without changing GMs.

Besides, no one with the kind of serious credentials you would be looking for has any interest in stepping into this mess of a front office.
If we do want to try and bring in that type of person, we would need to do a number of things:

1) Senator Kohl would have to relinquish his title of President of Basketball Operations and give that title to this new person. This in and of itself will not be enough though. This was on the table for Doug Collins, but Doug Collins still declined to come here.

2) Remove Ron Walter from the organization. He might not be well known among fans, but he is well known (in a very bad way) among front office people. No one will come here unless Kohl gets rid of Walter. At this point it would probably be a good idea to just clean house and get rid of Steinmiller and Burr as well. Walter is the primary problem though and his removal would be huge in the eyes of a prospective candidate to become our new President of Basketball Operations and GM.

3) Make this new guy the highest paid executive in the NBA. Despite moves #1 and #2, any candidate is still going to be skeptical about whether it would be a good idea to come here as long as Kohl owns the team. The money is a must.

4) Assure the new guy that he can make ANY move he deems necessary. ANY. Obviously, that includes the coach. One reason why front office people aren't interested in this job is that Kohl always picks the coaches himself. If the new guy wants to keep Larry K, fine. But if he doesn't, Kohl can't stand in his way and prevent him from firing Larry K.



If firing Larry Harris is a prerequisite to Kohl taking steps 1-4 for the GM of this team, than I am all for the firing of Larry Harris and I hope Larry Harris gets fired ASAP.

Otherwise... we'd just be firing him for the sake of firing someone. Which is fine I guess. But nothing would change.

[75totheMACCfund]

what's the point of removing steinmiller?

[paulpressey25]

That was a good post GAD....pretty much summed it all up for Pilprin, who was a good poster on the ESPN boards back in the day but we haven't heard much from in recent years....welcome back!

[Simulack]

2) Remove Ron Walter from the organization. He might not be well known among fans, but he is well known (in a very bad way) among front office people. No one will come here unless Kohl gets rid of Walter. At this point it would probably be a good idea to just clean house and get rid of Steinmiller and Burr as well

In additions to GAD's points about LH, I think there are reasons why waiting to make a trade could be costly. If we are talking about something like a Redd for expiring(s)/pick or prospect type deal, one of the pluses of that trade would be that it would very likely hurt our team in the short term (since nearly everyone agrees Redd is currently our best player) and hence lead to us having better odds of landing a top pick in this years draft.

If we know we are going to be rebuilding, I'm not comfortable with waiting two-thirds of a season more to do it. Besides the likelihood of increasing our odds of a top 3 type draft pick, making a Redd deal now would open up shots for some of our younger players, let us evaluate how they play together with Redd out of the equation, give someone else a chance to step up as the leader of this team, etc.

Same applies to a Bogut trade for different reasons. I disagree with Pilprin that he is a building block of this team. I'm worried we are going (if we haven't already) cross a point of no return in terms of his trade value. Look at another #1 who was a huge disappointment in Kwame Brown - the transition from him still being viewed as having enough potential to be traded for Caron Butler to being considered a bust happened relatively quickly.

Bogut's a solid player but not good enough to necessarily warrant being a building block. If I were making the decisions for the Bucks, I'd try to get a feel for what Redd and Bogut's trade value and then make a decision about which direction to go. If Bogut's still got enough value to be a major piece in a Gasol type deal, its reasonable to try to win now. If a deal like that isn't possible, its probably best to rebuild entirely.

Unless you think Harris is going to be fired prior to the trade deadline and we can find a good replacement quickly (without altering the structure at the top with Kohl and the 3 fates), waiting is only going to hurt us IMO.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

what's the point of removing steinmiller?

If we would want to completely clean house, one could make an argument that you get rid of Steinmiller and Burr along with Walter. I happen to think Steinmiller would be fine under a GM with real power, as he's never been the kind of problem Walter has. But the fact remains he is part of the current power structure who must sign off on anything the GM does. Steinmiller tends not to abuse that function, unlike Walter.

I don't know, I'm not really advocating getting rid of Steinmiller, it was more just mentioning it in passing. Walter is the real problem there. Also, Steinmiller actually performs a worthwhile and necessary function within the organization, whereas Walter does not.

[paulpressey25]

The Bucks have a four-man "cabinet" of Burr, Steinmiller, Walter and Harris......it works well for Kohl because no one of the four has all the power, yet Kohl gives each enough power to "check" the other guy so no huge "mistake" is made.

All four are "Kohl" guys......Herb's comfortable with them and they do what he wants. They aren't going anywhere......but I could see Harris getting replaced next May with a Bob Weinhauer or Babcock type guy who would take the job under the chance to shine in the position.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

Unless you think Harris is going to be fired prior to the trade deadline and we can find a good replacement quickly (without altering the structure at the top with Kohl and the 3 fates), waiting is only going to hurt us IMO.

Yeah, I just can't see why it would make sense to wait to make any of those trades, if one advocates making those trades in the first place.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

but I could see Harris getting replaced next May with a Bob Weinhauer or Babcock type guy who would take the job under the chance to shine in the position.

Right. That is the type of guy Kohl would almost certainly bring in to replace Harris.

[zizek]

I think the best chance for bringing in a veteran GM conditioned on the drastic changes to the front office GAD describes would be to keep this team intact and suffer through as miserable a season as possible. Any glimmer of hope that can be achieved through a mid-season trade would obscure the need for drastic change. Maybe a consecutive tanking season this late in his life will make Herb think along the lines of finally relinquishing authority before it is too late and cleaning house. The best selection of GMs will be in the off season.

[Simulack]

To add a bit more... It's easy to jump on the "Fire Harris" bandwagon now that the team is struggling for the 2nd season in a row. But when you evaluate the specific moves he had made, I think it becomes harder to argue that a different GM would have done a significantly better job.

Like I've argued before, the two moves that have been the most devastating to this franchise over the last 2-3 years were drafting Bogut and signing Simmons. What percentage of GM's would have made different choices there are what are our odds that we can get one of those guys here when its well known we have a dysfunctional owner and advisers at the top?

Drafting Paul or Williams #1 would have required a GM who was willing to completely think against the grain since Bogut and Williams were the consensus 1/2 picks.

The Simmons case is more arguable... but we have to remember that he was consdired a top FA by many publications/internet sites and that we only had that window to use that money (we signed him by inking him "before" Redd's massive deal was going to put us over the cap for the foreseeable future.) Who else was a realistic option to sign or should we just have let that momentary cap window evaporate? Would most GM's do that?

There is no sense replacing Harris unless we can get someone better in here... GAD's given some reasons why that isn't likely to happen and I think its a fairly plausible argument that most of the mistakes Harris has made were partly situational (getting the #1 pick in a bad draft to have it and having FA money when Bobby Simmons was a top target).

Its hilarious how quickly things turn. A season and half ago everyone had snake avatars and I got blasted for starting a Harris thread and pointing out that drafting Bogut was a mistake ("I'd still take him ahead of Paul!") and Simmons was a poor signing ("He's one of the best young SF's in the game!").

[Chuck Diesel]

I could go either way on Harris. After having it explained to me the hoops that Harris has to jump through to get anything done I realize his hands are obviously tied to a certain extent. But on the other hand, Harris has to be evaluated for the transactions he did make. Surely every not every single transaction of Harris

[midranger]

Our PF would have been Boozer and TJ would have still been on the team had Harris had his way.

[75totheMACCfund]

-= original quote snipped =-



If we would want to completely clean house, one could make an argument that you get rid of Steinmiller and Burr along with Walter. I happen to think Steinmiller would be fine under a GM with real power, as he's never been the kind of problem Walter has. But the fact remains he is part of the current power structure who must sign off on anything the GM does. Steinmiller tends not to abuse that function, unlike Walter.

I don't know, I'm not really advocating getting rid of Steinmiller, it was more just mentioning it in passing. Walter is the real problem there. Also, Steinmiller actually performs a worthwhile and necessary function within the organization, whereas Walter does not.

GAD, you won't find a harder working individual within the organization than Mr. Steinmiller. The bucks would be foolish to get rid of him as he is incredibly well thought of throughout the NBA.

[Simulack]

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=501549

Here's a particularly good Harris thread from 2 seasons ago. There are also a few proclaiming him GM of the year.

(Not trying to call anyone out in particular; we all say things that look stupid or inconsistent in the future. It's just amazing how the opinion has turned so quickly in a year and a half.)

[trwi7]

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=428568

Here's a particularly good Harris thread from 2 seasons ago. There are also a few proclaiming him GM of the year.

(Not trying to call anyone out in particular; we all say things that look stupid or inconsistent in the future. It's just amazing how the opinion has turned so quickly in a year and a half.)

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