Bogut to the Wolves rumor on their board

[skones]

OK, but let's go back to this. This is the fun trade posted by a Mil fan I do believe.


incontrol__
Assistant GM

Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject:

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Clippers outgoing: Cuttino Mobley, Tim Thomas, #7, T'Wolves' future pick
Clippers incoming: Michael Redd, #37

(PG from Maggette sign & trade)-Redd-Thornton-Brand-Kaman

T'Wolves outgoing: #3, #31
T'Wolves incoming: #7, #8, T'Wolves future first

T'Wolves draft Kevin Love at #7, and Eric Gordon (?) at #8 (if there)

Milwaukee outgoing: Michael Redd, #8, #37
Milwaukee incoming: #3, #31, Cuttino Mobley, Tim Thomas

Milwaukee drafts OJ Mayo at #3. Mayo, Bogut, Yi, Sessions as their core to build around. Then trades Mo Williams, Charlie Villaneuva, Desmond Mason for backup PG, (arguable starter) SF, and backup PF/C (if possible).



Do the Clippers need more?

I love this deal personally, but I'm not sure I see the Clippers including your own future first. If that pick comes to them within the next two years it's almost a sure fire lottery pick. I don't know if they give that up and 7 for Redd.

[incontrol__]

It would come down to whether the Clippers liked Gordon at $3M per year or Redd at $17M per year. My money would be on Gordon (who I also think will be a better overall pro than Redd).

I think it’s more complicated than that. If Gordon were to end up being a similar calibre player to Redd, it likely wouldn’t happen for 2-3 years, you’d think…

Brand’s contract is up after next season; it seems likely, to me, that if the Clippers aren’t contenders, or atleast a playoff team, that he would be pretty enticed by the idea of signing with Miami to pair up with Wade+#2 and contend for a title in the East.

This deal is similar to the Ray Allen to Boston deal… If the Clippers plan on keeping their star (Brand) for too much longer, they should be looking to contend, not go with youth, imo.

Allen > Redd

#5 > #7
Sczierbiak > Mobley, TT
Delonte West > Nothing

Note: I'd probably actually prefer that the Clippers chose to just trade Elton Brand, though.. A package of #8, CV or Yi, Mo (to a third team?) would probably be competitive if that were the case, and i'd rather see the Bucks contend right now.

the component that really makes the trading of the #3 and one of our (MN) 2nd rounders is getting not only the #7 and #8 pick, but also the future first we owe the clippers from the Jaric/Cassel debacle. Essentially, 3 firsts (two mid lottos minimum) for the price of the #3 and a early 2nd.

As people have pointed out, Clippers most likely wouldn’t be happy with giving up that pick along with the #7 for Redd.. So, would taking out the ‘your future 1st for #31’ part of the deal make the deal a ‘no’ for you guys?

It would make it just #7 and #8 for #3…

The deal would then be:

Milwaukee outgoing: #8, Michael Redd, #37
Milwaukee incoming: #3 (OJ Mayo), Cuttino Mobley, Tim Thomas

Clippers outgoing: Cuttino Mobley, Tim Thomas
Clippers incoming: Michael Redd, #37

T’Wolves outgoing: #3 (OJ Mayo)
T’Wolves incoming: #7, #8

[paulpressey25]

I think if Hammond offered Minnesota Redd and #8 for #3 and a couple bad contracts like Jaric, the T-Wolves would take it. I actually don't see Hammond offering that deal.

While we on these boards love to over-rate draft picks, guys in the position of Hammond and McHale need to win and win soon. Mayo is more likely to be Jamaal Crawford than Kobe based on the odds.

That said, I'd make that offer to the Wolves simply because I think Redd needs a change of scenery and it is possible Mayo becomes a Brandon Roy type player.

[ReasonablySober]

Mayo's going to be special. Redd and #8 for #3 is a no-brainer.

[raferfenix]

I don't know if Mayo is going to be special, but he certainly has that potential. More importantly though, he's a player who plays great defense and is a great and willing passer. Both of those qualities put him in stark contrast to Jamal Crawford.

I don't see the wovles being too interested in Redd, as he is real overpaid and is a little old to be part of a full fledged rebuilding effort. I see them valuing Mo Williams more than Redd as a matter of fact considering he's paid half as much and is only 24. Randy Foye at point also is a lot to swallow, whereas him and Mo could develop into an Arenas/Hughes style backcourt.

Bucks trade: #8, Mo Williams, Desmond Mason
Wolves trade: #3, Marko Jaric, Antoine Walker

[Simulack]

I can't really see the Wolves doing Redd/#8 for #3 unless we do something like eat two of their terrible contracts (Jaric and Hudson?). Otherwise they have no use for Redd - he doesn't help them win now. Adding Redd and the #8 pick to that team doesn't catapult them to the 50 wins needed to get into the playoffs in the West. But if they are getting rid of some really hard to move guys, they might take Redd if only because he would be easier to turn around and move in the future.

I dunno, my gut says they don't do it regardless. They just moved KG last year. At least with a guy like Mayo they can sell the fan base to the idea that they are rebuilding, having a few down years but adding potential superstar talent like Mayo since he has always had that rep/hype. That seems a lot harder with the #8 pick. There they are more likely to get another Corey Brewer type.

Who knows with McHale though. Supposedly he wants Love and if he is still there at #8 he makes this move.

It would be a big risk for us also. If you think Mayo is special or can be a Brandon Roy or even Dwayne Wade type player, you take on whatever bad contracts you need to to move up and get him. But if he doesn't pan out, we are stuck with contracts much harder to move than Redd's. I'd have to be very convinced he's a can't miss prospect to swap Redd for contract garbage just to move up 5 spots.

[incontrol__]

I think if Hammond offered Minnesota Redd and #8 for #3 and a couple bad contracts like Jaric, the T-Wolves would take it.

I doubt it. Minnesota doesn't really have enough bad contracts. Jaric+Madsen is about it, the rest are expiring, and will give them enough capspace this offseason to go after a few good players. I doubt they'd hurt that cap space (a lot) to trade #3 (Mayo) for Redd+#8 (Love?).

I actually don't see Hammond offering that deal.

While we on these boards love to over-rate draft picks, guys in the position of Hammond and McHale need to win and win soon.

That is most likely true, though. It seems unlikely that Skiles signed on to coach a lottery team...

Bucks trade: #8, Mo Williams, Desmond Mason
Wolves trade: #3, Marko Jaric, Antoine Walker

That seems interesting.. It doesn't take much (only 1 mil) from their capspace.. I think they'd want more, though.

[ReasonablySober]

I think there's a solid chance that we could do one of two things:

1 - Use Redd to unload a one or more bad contracts but not expect a lot in the way of talent in return. Redd and Dan to Cleveland is an example.

or

2 - Use Redd to get back a young guy with potential so long as we take on a crummy contract or two.

I don't see the Bucks getting another player of Redd's caliber, i.e. a good, quasi-All-Star type.

[paulpressey25]

The great part about all this speculation is that we'll get rewarded with something here in the next 6-8 weeks.

I just can't see Hammond and Skiles saying "yeah, get me OJ Mayo". Too much risk and too many headaches.

But I could see Hammond and Skiles saying "yeah, let's move Redd for JO because we need his defense and scoring and he actually is owed less money in aggregate than Redd"

I'd rather do the Mayo deal, but my job and mental happiness the next two-years doesn't depend on it like it does with Hammond and Skiles.

[xTitan]

Mayo's going to be special. Redd and #8 for #3 is a no-brainer.

You think he is going to be special....he is FAR from a lock, there have been many players who were going to be special that never were....trading Redd and the #8 is crazy...but you do hate Redd so your so-called no-brainer makes sense in your world.

[ReasonablySober]

-= original quote snipped =-



You think he is going to be special....he is FAR from a lock, there have been many players who were going to be special that never were....trading Redd and the #8 is crazy...but you do hate Redd so your so-called no-brainer makes sense in your world.

I don't hate Bogut and I don't hate Redd. But I resent both. Redd because he's paid the max and Bogut because he was the #1 pick. Honest enough for you?

[xTitan]

-= original quote snipped =-



I don't hate Bogut and I don't hate Redd. But I resent both. Redd because he's paid the max and Bogut because he was the #1 pick. Honest enough for you?

LOL........most of us knew that but its cool......if Mayo turns out to be all you said then making the Redd deal would not be hard, but if he doesn't, you are done for a long time because you have no bargaining chips...oh and Bogut will be 18 and 10 next year, you'll come around.

[ReasonablySober]

That would be great. I've said that if he develops a jumper and couple reliable post moves he's a perennial All-Star. But a TS% that's 32nd among centers is beyond pathetic. 22nd in rebound rate despite playing next to the worst pair of PFs in the game.

But if you're fine with that out of the former #1 overall then that's your prerogative.

[xTitan]

I am very happy with how Bogut played after the 1st of this year and I expect him to continue building on that. If his teammates show that improvement I would be extremely happy.

[incontrol__]

But I could see Hammond and Skiles saying "yeah, let's move Redd for JO because we need his defense and scoring and he actually is owed less money in aggregate than Redd"

I hope he's not thinking that.. The Bucks should heavily consider trading for JO if they're looking to win now -which as you've pointed out, is pretty likely- but Redd's got more value, imo, and i think JO could be gotten while keeping Redd. IMO, a big 3 of Redd-Bogut-JO would complement each other pretty well, and assuming you were able to follow up with a couple of good trades to balance the roster a bit you could build a 3-6 seed (45-50 wins) for next season off that core (and the team, with Yi, Bogut, Sessions would still have a few young players with potential who, if were to break out, could possibly turn the team into a contender).

I think it's plausible that Hammond is looking heavily into the possiblity of acquiring JO, considering how likely you'd think he'd like the idea of acquiring a defensive anchor to put on this team.

I remember seeing a thread here that had a rumour (?) of Hammond looking into trading Redd or Mo + #8 for something/someone. I think JO or Brand would definetly be a good possibility. The Bucks are going to need a defensive anchor if they hope to be a good team.

......I actually started to make up a "Bucks Offseason Plan" based on that thought (JO to the Bucks for #8+filler) several (4?) days ago when i was bored (which i always am).

[crkone]

Mo + CV For Varejao and Smith + 19

then

Simmons + 8 + 19 For Buckner + Jaric +3?

Too horrible for Minny?

[Winter Wonder]

From Incontrol__

I doubt it. Minnesota doesn't really have enough bad contracts. Jaric+Madsen is about it, the rest are expiring, and will give them enough capspace this offseason to go after a few good players. I doubt they'd hurt that cap space (a lot) to trade #3 (Mayo) for Redd+#8 (Love?).


...and here is the Crux on any deal with Redd to the wolves, the financial aspect and cap flexibility. The wolves are just not in a position where taking on any longer deals, especially those at high salaries, is desirable short of a young franchise player. Redd is definitely talented, but we wouldn't want to add one of his situation for another couple years. Moving him to a 3rd team would almost be imperitive for any deal to occur.

The return of the pick is what pushes the deal for the wolves. I am not sure the 7 and 8 would be enough in most fans' eyes with the drop off in talent. There are tiers with the top two obviously being the first tier, then it gets debateable, though most would say the next 3 (3-5) are the next tier, some say Mayo alone designates the next tier alone. I won't go that far for this discussion, regardless, the 7 and 8 are past that second tier assuredly. With a potential roster crunch in terms of numbers, a ton of picks isn't exactly what the wolves are shooting for, though collecting quality assets would be, so it is hard to determine if removing the returned pick makes this as enticing on the MN side. Also, of note, the pick owed the clippers is top 10 protected through 2012 I believe. There is no change with the protection until removed entirely after the final year of protection.

Regardless, thanks for the interesting reading and trade talks. Interesting to see how another squad is dealing with the big markets. The Bucks are at an interesting point in their franchise. To rebuild, to tweak, or to really reshuffle but try and contend. The wolves were in limbo for quite some time and do not wish that on anyone. The bucks have a few more younger pieces to work with though. Just minus the current superstar, but it leaves you less financial strapped. That KG contract really hurt us for awhile. Well, that and no first round picks and bad contracts on sub par players. And the difficulties of being in the west. Bah, forget my whining. Good luck, should be an interesting off season.

[incontrol__]

Mo + CV For Varejao and Smith + 19

then

Simmons + 8 + 19 For Buckner + Jaric +3?

Too horrible for Minny?

Change Smith in the Cleveland deal to Damon Jones. Both are expiring, but the Cavs' frontcourt gets really thin by trading two bigs (who would likely play 20 mpg each) for one, whereas Jones doesn't get much time for the Cavs and would get even less with Mo on board.

Simmons would have to be changed to Mason for it to be really any benefit to the Wolves. A Mason for Jaric swap gives them an extra 6 mil of capspace. Buckner's contract actually expiries after next season, btw, it's a Team Option so they wouldn't have much interest in getting rid of him. At least i'm 99% sure that's the case with Buckner.

I doubt the T'Wolves would go for it either way, though..

I am not sure the 7 and 8 would be enough in most fans' eyes with the drop off in talent.

Fair enough.. I get what you mean by the tiers.

[paulpressey25]

I think it's plausible that Hammond is looking heavily into the possiblity of acquiring JO,

I don't know whether this is the case of not, but the only way we could handle JO's contract is if we sent out either Redd or Mo/Simmons/Gadz.

But to me, a JO move if he's available would be something these two guys might do if they wanted veterans to win now.

[Wise1]

Mayo's going to be special. Redd and #8 for #3 is a no-brainer.

Peep the sig.