TI: #8 + Crap for Darko/Miller

[Chapter29]

Instead of continuing to go back and forth we should just put his stats out there. And once again for the record, I know Redd isn't a good rebounder.

00-01: 4
01-02: 4.3
02-03: 5.8/3.4
03-04: 3.3
04-05: 3.9
05-06: 5.4
06-07: 5.4
07-08: 6.7

It looks like he might be improving on rebounding but I still don't think 4.8 career avg. is good for a 6'9" who is as much a SF as a SG even though you keep comparing his stats to that of SG's. If he continues improving those numbers then I'll admit he is a solid rebounder if you admit that Redd is a better player. We all know he is so I don't even know why its a discussion. As people have previously stated, if you go back before this terrible season, no one in their right mind would take Miller over Redd.

Actually Miller played slightly more at SF than SG this past season and quite a bit more the year prior.

% of total minutes played at a SG/SF.

2006/2007 26%/40%
2007/2008 28%/32%

So I would say its very fair to compare him to both SG's and SF's. Doing a quick search on ESPN shows this year he would rank 4th in SF rebounds and even pretty well when looking at his 5.8 3 year average, putting him likely in the top 10 at the position.

I would say the guy can rebound pretty well. Regardless of his size. I think his size helps him, but his lack of athleticism may hurt him.

[El Sid]

Please don't reply unless you intend to list the players who by comparison make Mike Miller a bad rebounder.

No comment on the experience thing? I'll take that as my hunch being correct.

I'll say this, Miller had a good year rebounding for a SG or a SF as C29 has stated. For his career, Miller is an average rebounder for a SG at 4.8 rpg and a slightly below average rebounder for a SF. If he continues to rebound like he has done the past couple of years then he will be considered a very good rebounder at the SG position and about an average rebounder at the SF position in my eyes.

The main topic we have been discussing though is whether Miller is better than Redd. So let's say that Miller has turned into a solid rebounder, he still is a bad defender and his forte is shooting and scoring, and he has never translated that into at least 20ppg in a season whether he was a #1 option or not (although that is predicated on him showing the ability to be a number one option which he hasn't done).

Plain and simple, if you polled the other 29 teams in our league, every single one would take Redd over Miller if salary cap had nothing to do with the situation.

[InsideOut]

The main topic we have been discussing though is whether Miller is better than Redd. So let's say that Miller has turned into a solid rebounder, he still is a bad defender and his forte is shooting and scoring, and he has never translated that into at least 20ppg in a season whether he was a #1 option or not (although that is predicated on him showing the ability to be a number one option which he hasn't done).

Plain and simple, if you polled the other 29 teams in our league, every single one would take Redd over Miller if salary cap had nothing to do with the situation.

Do you agree with what was posted earlier?

Better IQ/Shot selection = Miller (Redd has almost zero basketball smarts)
Better passer = Miller (Miller has averaged more during his career)
Better rebounder = Miller (Miller has averaged more during his career)
Better defender = Miller (Maybe slight edge to Miller)
Spot up shooter = Tie (Miller does have a higher career FG%)
Better pure/iso scorer = Redd (#1 option on bad team = more shots)

Other than take more shots and score more points, what does Redd do better than Miller?

[WRau1]

Theres no point in defending Redd on this board anymore. How many people would have claimed Miller to be anywhere near the same lvl as Redd before last season?

I'm not defending Redd. I don't like him as a player. I am however saying that Redd is better than Miller. I don't like Miller as a player either unless he's the 3rd option at best and he's surrounded by a bunch of good defenders.

And maybe I have a brain fart or something but I don't understand your point completely. Are you saying Miller has inched closer to Redd as a player? Sorry for not understanding.

I was trying to say that the majority of this board is blinded by Redd hate. Most of this board will argue that any player you can think of is better then Redd. Theres no point in saying that hes better then anyone.

Mike Miller is a glorified 6th man. He couldn't find a spot on an Orlando team desperate for outside scoring and he couldn't emerge as more than a spot up shooter while on a Memphis team that also lacked scoring. Somehow hes better than Redd though.

[midranger]

I don't think anyone hates Redd. I think most have come to their senses though.

He takes a high volume of shots and scores a high volume of points. That's it. Nothing else. He actually hurts the team in several other facets of the game.

Most people don't think that's worth 17 million and the "best" player on the team mentality.

If he was being paid 8-9 million and was a 2nd or 3rd option, I don't think anyone would have a problem with Redd.

[El Sid]

Mike Miller is a glorified 6th man. He couldn't find a spot on an Orlando team desperate for outside scoring and he couldn't emerge as more than a spot up shooter while on a Memphis team that also lacked scoring. Somehow hes better than Redd though.

Thank you WRau1.
InsideOut and Adamcz keep bringing up some nonsense about Miller always being a third option because he wasn't in the right situation and Redd being the number one option on a bad team so therein lies the difference in their scoring. It's just crap. Miller had every opportunity with the Magic and now the Grizzlies to be a great scorer and he hasn't done it. Ray Allen was actually shipped out of here because Redd made it apparent that he could score more than 20ppg. I don't see Miller having the same effect on a team with an all-star in front of him.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Adamcz keep bringing up some nonsense about Miller always being a third option because he wasn't in the right situation and Redd being the number one option on a bad team so therein lies the difference in their scoring.

Really...

Redd is a better pure scorer. Redd makes a better #1 option, but having Redd as your #1 option is a disaster anyway.

You're new here, and all I know about you so far is that you have a penchant for arguments which are factually incorrect.

-Redd averages around 10 more ppg than Miller (the real answer is 6)
-Miller is a bad rebounder (he's one of the best combo 2/3 rebounders in the NBA)
-adamcz "keeps bringing up" that Miller is in the wrong situation to score more points (I never said that once, much less repeatedly)

I'm not sure if the problem is that you're too lazy to double check your arguments before you hit the reply button, but you're not far away from the ignore list. It isn't worth anyone's time to debate with people who don't care whether the the things they type are true.

[Balls2TheWalls]

Adamcz keep bringing up some nonsense about Miller always being a third option because he wasn't in the right situation and Redd being the number one option on a bad team so therein lies the difference in their scoring.

Really...
-= original quote snipped =-

You're new here, and all I know about you so far is that you have a penchant for arguments which are factually incorrect.

-Redd averages around 10 more ppg than Miller (the real answer is 6)
-Miller is a bad rebounder (he's one of the best combo 2/3 rebounders in the NBA)
-adamcz "keeps bringing up" that Miller is in the wrong situation to score more points (I never said that once, much less repeatedly)

I'm not sure if the problem is that you're too lazy to double check your arguments before you hit the reply button, but you're not far away from the ignore list. It isn't worth anyone's time to debate with people who don't care whether the the things they type are true.

I think that PP said something along the lines of "bring your A game to this board." The new guys need to know that they can't just throw out bunk on this board and expect it to stick. People are going to factually refute it, and make you feel and look dumb. Take the extra time to research your position. Who knows, the facts might actually make you change your position.

[El Sid]

You're new here, and all I know about you so far is that you have a penchant for arguments which are factually incorrect.

-Redd averages around 10 more ppg than Miller (the real answer is 6)
-Miller is a bad rebounder (he's one of the best combo 2/3 rebounders in the NBA)
-adamcz "keeps bringing up" that Miller is in the wrong situation to score more points (I never said that once, much less repeatedly)

I'm not sure if the problem is that you're too lazy to double check your arguments before you hit the reply button, but you're not far away from the ignore list. It isn't worth anyone's time to debate with people who don't care whether the the things they type are true.

Adam, I have already shown you their career stats. Were talking about facts and the fact is since Redd has been a starter he has averaged 9 more points a game than Miller, should I list that also? I have already shown you that. The 6 point differential is this past seasons differential, not the last handful of years. I already admitted that Miller has become a solid rebounder the last couple of seasons but his career avg. is still not impressive. If he continues to rebound like he has for the past couple of seasons then I agree with you.

InsideOut and yourself were making the point that Miller hasn't had the opportunity that Redd has to be a number one option on a bad team. That isn't factual.

Lastly, you say I have a penchant to argue but what initially got us in a discussion in the first place was that I didn't agree that your trade would help the Bucks that much and you took offense and your next post to me was argumentative and kiddish, if I can remember correctly, "Isn't your goal to be emperor of the universe?" I've been reading this board for a long time and never posting because everyone smashes on other people so when I finally did sign up, one of my goals was not to argue, but with that initial comment you made, its kind of hard not to.

-Redd averages around 10 more ppg than Miller (the real answer is 6)

Miller:
03-04 11.1ppg
04-05 13.4
05-06 13.7
06-07 18.5(career high)
07-08 16.4
Avg. 14.6 ppg
Career Avg. 14.4 ppg

Redd: (Since becoming a starter)
03-04 21.7ppg
04-05 23
05-06 25.4
06-07 26.7
07-08 22.7
Avg. 24
Career Avg. 20.5

Now there career averages are only 6 points apart, however, since Redd has been a starter, which is what we have been been talking about this entire time (and you know that) since Redd didn't play much his first two years and Miller was starting since his rookie year, Redd has averaged 9.4 more ppg. So if were going to talk about facts, there they are. Our whole discussion has been about the last handful of years, not the beginning of their careers obviously with Redd's situation behind Ray and everything. So you saying there only 6 points apart is straying away from are real discussion and bringing Redd's first few years behind Ray as a cushion for your argument.

The facts are since Redd has been a starter he has averaged 9.4 more ppg than Miller. If your only going to use Miller's rebounding from the past few seasons why do we keep using Redd's ppg from his first few seasons as a benchwarmer and a backup? This discussion is based on the last 4-5 years so lets stick to that.

[InsideOut]

Thank you WRau1.
InsideOut and Adamcz keep bringing up some nonsense about Miller always being a third option because he wasn't in the right situation and Redd being the number one option on a bad team so therein lies the difference in their scoring. It's just crap. Miller had every opportunity with the Magic and now the Grizzlies to be a great scorer and he hasn't done it. Ray Allen was actually shipped out of here because Redd made it apparent that he could score more than 20ppg. I don't see Miller having the same effect on a team with an all-star in front of him.

Again the only defense you have for Redd is scoring. So I'll ask one more time, what else does Redd do better than Miller than shoot more and score more.

As far as my "nonsense" let me try and explain it by asking you a question. Who was the better scorer...? Isiah Thomas, Mark Aguirre or Adrian Dantley? Based on your one track mind I'll assume you'll look up their career ppg stats and say Dantley because his average was the highest. I'd then point out that while Dantley was the #1 option on a crappy Utah team he was throwing up 20+ shots a game and averaged almost 30 ppg over a seven year span. However, he was then traded to a Detroit team where he was no longer the 1st, 2nd and 3rd scoring option. His scoring average not surprisingly dropped by over 8 points a game. While in the past he was scoring over 7 points a game more that Isiah, their per game average was now less than a point different. This example also holds true for Mark Acquire. He was a scoring machine playing for crappy Dallas and was on a 6 year run where he averaged roughly 26 a game. As soon as he was traded to Detroit his averaged dropped to 15.5 followed by 14.1 in his first full season with the Pistons. Think about that. Once he was on a team that shared and distributed the ball and he wasn

[smooth 'lil balla]

Adamcz keep bringing up some nonsense about Miller always being a third option because he wasn't in the right situation and Redd being the number one option on a bad team so therein lies the difference in their scoring.

Really...
-= original quote snipped =-

You're new here, and all I know about you so far is that you have a penchant for arguments which are factually incorrect.

-Redd averages around 10 more ppg than Miller (the real answer is 6)
-Miller is a bad rebounder (he's one of the best combo 2/3 rebounders in the NBA)
-adamcz "keeps bringing up" that Miller is in the wrong situation to score more points (I never said that once, much less repeatedly)

I'm not sure if the problem is that you're too lazy to double check your arguments before you hit the reply button, but you're not far away from the ignore list. It isn't worth anyone's time to debate with people who don't care whether the the things they type are true.

adam, you're too harsh, and did you really call him a "ball boy."

As someon who is in favor of this trade, and thinks it's probably the best idea i've seen (though i don't think memphis would do it), i see his point. I guess the question is:

Is Miller being brought in to be our primary scorer? I'm assuming the answer is absolutely not, he's being brought in as the 3rd-4th scorer on the team, which would servie has a a great role player. If he's being brought in to be the primary scorer, he'd fail miserably. Miller's scoring average went down after the Pau Gasol trade.

[El Sid]

I think that PP said something along the lines of "bring your A game to this board." The new guys need to know that they can't just throw out bunk on this board and expect it to stick. People are going to factually refute it, and make you feel and look dumb. Take the extra time to research your position. Who knows, the facts might actually make you change your position.

I listed the facts and I have researched my opinion. Look above this post. Myself and adamcz keep discussing the seasons since Redd has been a starter and since that time Redd has averaged 9.4 more ppg than Miller has, not 6. A lot of people here think new guys don't have any facts and that you Real GM's are the only one's who can even bring in A game. I respect a lot of you for your knowledge. Some of you are very impressive and I take nothing away from you Real GM's posting on here for such a long time, but to somehow insinuate that I don't have that same knowledge because I haven't posted on here for years as adamcz called me a ballboy, that's just ridiculous. I already asked adam about his experience and he would never answer me. Just because I just started posting doesn't mean that I have less basketball experience than a RealGM. I honestly am not attacking anyone on here but just based on my history, I would guess that I've had more basketball experience than most on this board so why I'm I being berated cause I'm listed as a ballboy? And you can tell some posters post differently to people with the ballboy title which makes no sense to me.

[El Sid]

Again the only defense you have for Redd is scoring. So I'll ask one more time, what else does Redd do better than Miller than shoot more and score more.

As far as my "nonsense" let me try and explain it by asking you a question. Who was the better scorer...? Isiah Thomas, Mark Aguirre or Adrian Dantley? Based on your one track mind I'll assume you'll look up their career ppg stats and say Dantley because his average was the highest. I'd then point out that while Dantley was the #1 option on a crappy Utah team he was throwing up 20+ shots a game and averaged almost 30 ppg over a seven year span. However, he was then traded to a Detroit team where he was no longer the 1st, 2nd and 3rd scoring option. His scoring average not surprisingly dropped by over 8 points a game. While in the past he was scoring over 7 points a game more that Isiah, their per game average was now less than a point different. This example also holds true for Mark Acquire. He was a scoring machine playing for crappy Dallas and was on a 6 year run where he averaged roughly 26 a game. As soon as he was traded to Detroit his averaged dropped to 15.5 followed by 14.1 in his first full season with the Pistons. Think about that. Once he was on a team that shared and distributed the ball and he wasn

[Balls2TheWalls]

I think that PP said something along the lines of "bring your A game to this board." The new guys need to know that they can't just throw out bunk on this board and expect it to stick. People are going to factually refute it, and make you feel and look dumb. Take the extra time to research your position. Who knows, the facts might actually make you change your position.

I listed the facts and I have researched my opinion. Look above this post. Myself and adamcz keep discussing the seasons since Redd has been a starter and since that time Redd has averaged 9.4 more ppg than Miller has, not 6. A lot of people here think new guys don't have any facts and that you Real GM's are the only one's who can even bring in A game. I respect a lot of you for your knowledge. Some of you are very impressive and I take nothing away from you Real GM's posting on here for such a long time, but to somehow insinuate that I don't have that same knowledge because I haven't posted on here for years as adamcz called me a ballboy, that's just ridiculous. I already asked adam about his experience and he would never answer me. Just because I just started posting doesn't mean that I have less basketball experience than a RealGM. I honestly am not attacking anyone on here but just based on my history, I would guess that I've had more basketball experience than most on this board so why I'm I being berated cause I'm listed as a ballboy? And you can tell some posters post differently to people with the ballboy title which makes no sense to me.

It has very little to do with you being a ballboy in my eyes. It has more to do with you making a false claim, someone handing you a better argument with a big side of your ass, and you acting like you weren't wrong.

There is no loss to being a humble person. Sometimes you have to take your lumps on this board, move on and grow up. I have had arguments of my own decimated, but instead of coming on and crying about how someone could call out a ballboy, I researched my posts more before posting them. Maybe adamcz wasn't humble in this situation, but unfortunately for you, he was correct.

Adam's posts have very little to do with whether or not he has basketball experience. He created a better argument than yours, with better factual evidence. You might disagree with the outcomes in the future, but arguing that which has happened will always lead to statistics and facts ruling the day.

[smooth 'lil balla]

-= original quote snipped =-



I think that PP said something along the lines of "bring your A game to this board." The new guys need to know that they can't just throw out bunk on this board and expect it to stick. People are going to factually refute it, and make you feel and look dumb. Take the extra time to research your position. Who knows, the facts might actually make you change your position.

I hardly think 44's facts have been refuted. And taking time to research opinion is also not necessary. Some have that time, others don't. I only reasearch once something i say gets blasted by the majority (which seems to happen a lot because i like the Bradley Center to watch a game, like Michael Redd as a #2 or #3 guy, and would prefer not to have a player with a marijuana habbit on our team).

Ballboy, coach, Assistant GM, Real GM. Does anyone really care about this? Well, i gotta admit, i popped a bottle of champagne when i hit realgm status (Terry Stotts reference).

[Balls2TheWalls]

-= original quote snipped =-



I hardly think 44's facts have been refuted. And taking time to research opinion is also not necessary. Some have that time, others don't. I only reasearch once something i say gets blasted by the majority (which seems to happen a lot because i like the Bradley Center to watch a game, like Michael Redd as a #2 or #3 guy, and would prefer not to have a player with a marijuana habbit on our team).

Ballboy, coach, Assistant GM, Real GM. Does anyone really care about this? Well, i gotta admit, i popped a bottle of champagne when i hit realgm status (Terry Stotts reference).

44 didn't have any facts. He bandied about ideas about Miller not being a good rebounder and many other opinions about how Miller wasn't even close to the player Redd was/is. Adamcz used facts/statistics to refute his points. 44 then got angry about how he was getting traded, but instead he should have just checked the stats and realized he was wrong, and there would have been 0 issue to it.

[smooth 'lil balla]

[quote="Balls2TheWalls"][/quote]

Balls, what facts did adam present that were better than 44's. They were both presenting opinions which they attempted to use statistics (hardly facts) that supported their argument.

To me they were arguing who is the better player. Redd without question is the better talent, but I'd rather have Miller on my team as a role player, while getting Darko (now that i'm thinking, I don't even think redd was in the original trade).

Anyway, in their argument, there was nothing i saw that conclusively pointed to one being more right than the other. i agreed with both.

[smooth 'lil balla]

-= original quote snipped =-



44 didn't have any facts. He bandied about ideas about Miller not being a good rebounder and many other opinions about how Miller wasn't even close to the player Redd was/is. Adamcz used facts/statistics to refute his points. 44 then got angry about how he was getting traded, but instead he should have just checked the stats and realized he was wrong, and there would have been 0 issue to it.

but he did present stats. Miller hasn't been a good rebounder until last year (or two), based purely on his stats. Last year though he was a great rebounder.

[El Sid]

It has very little to do with you being a ballboy in my eyes. It has more to do with you making a false claim, someone handing you a better argument with a big side of your ass, and you acting like you weren't wrong.

There is no loss to being a humble person. Sometimes you have to take your lumps on this board, move on and grow up. I have had arguments of my own decimated, but instead of coming on and crying about how someone could call out a ballboy, I researched my posts more before posting them. Maybe adamcz wasn't humble in this situation, but unfortunately for you, he was correct.

Adam's posts have very little to do with whether or not he has basketball experience. He created a better argument than yours, with better factual evidence. You might disagree with the outcomes in the future, but arguing that which has happened will always lead to statistics and facts ruling the day.

Smooth-

I've admitted that I was wrong on Miller's rebounding prowess as long as he continues to rebound well because he's done a good job the last few seasons. In regards to the scoring average, I still don't see how I am wrong though. Adamcz and myself were discussing the last 4-5 years of Miller and Redd's careers and I stated that Redd has averaged almost 10 more ppg than Miller (9.4 to be exact) and he says it is only 6. It is not only 6 unless you take into account their career averages and that has not been what weve been discussing. If we were talking about their entire careers than adam wouldn't be able to say Miller averaged 6.7 rpg, he would have to say he's averaged 4.8.

Facts/Stats/Opinions:
Miller has turned into a good rebounder the last few seasons.
Redd has averaged 9.4 more ppg than Miller since he's been a starter.

[Balls2TheWalls]

Last year he was one of the best rebounders in the league at his position.

I think that if you are going to jump onto this particular forum, that you need to be ready to defend what you say, and that the best way to do that is to research your position before you post it. Otherwise it stands to reason that someone will blast it with facts. If you are okay with someone blasting your argument, then have at posting without research. However, if you aren't, do not get mad at people when the destroy your argument.

Anyway, I already presented my stance on the trade, and I think it was probably 3 pages ago. I'm done arguing this because it will get us nowhere. I think that any accusation of favored treatment by post number is ridiculous. I know that a lot of the people in this forum just skip anything MMBOT has to say, and he has to have close to 3 million posts.