Marion: becoming more likely?

[raferfenix]

I will preface this post like I preface many I write on Marion: I am an unabashedly biased Marion to Milwaukee supporter. I have long thought he'd be the perfect player to add to our team, even if it'd be short term, in order to completley change our team from being horrible defensively to at least pretty good. Since getting RJ though, I have come to the conclusion that a Marion trade would be an even bigger deal as it'd make us a REALLY good defensive team while also giving us one of the top teams on the break as well.

With all that said, I am happy to report that there is a rumor from an extremely respected insider from the Bulls board that could relate to our ability to get Marion. Tech N9ne reported on his newly created blog that the Bulls are considering a sign and trade of Ben Gordon to the Heat (as well as other teams) in a deal that would no doubt have to include marion---the link is here: http://www.rumorpress.net/?p=29

Bulls fans think the deal woudl be Nocioni and Gordon for Marion, but they are split on whether or not they or the Heat would pull the trigger. Marion on the Bulls might stunt the development of Tyrus Thomas who Paxson is quite vested in, and that team is looking long term while developing Rose. Their fans also doubted that the Heat would want to pay Gordon remotely close to what he is offering, as he's aiming for Luol Deng money (or at least more than the $10 mill per year the bulls are willing to shell out).

In conclusion, I bet the Heat would vaslty prefer to pay Mo $8.5 mill per year instead of Gordon at $10 mill plus. Plus, mo would be a much better fit as Gordon has absolutely no PG skills to speak of. However, Nocioni is a complete Pat Riley guy and the Bucks would have to add more to the package to rival the Bulls offer.

So would the Bucks offer this kind of package, and would it end up being of equal value to other Marion packages (taking the assumption that the Bulls package is actually being discussed)? I'm taking the optimist route and getting my hopes up that hammond is working behind the scenes to pull this off, as we could make a hell of a package that includes some combination of Mo/Dez/CV/Gadz and maybe even a future first.

[trwi7]

Mo/Des/CV. They get a good fit next to Wade in Mo and about $8 million in expirings. Add a first if need be.

[jeremyd236]

Mo/Des/CV. They get a good fit next to Wade in Mo and about $8 million in expirings. Add a first if need be.

Is this assuming Marion extends his contract, or are we happy to get rid of Mo's contract for a one year rental of Marion?

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of clearing cap space in Milwaukee since it has proven to lead to nothign but overpaying below average players to get them here.

[trwi7]

Mo/Des/CV. They get a good fit next to Wade in Mo and about $8 million in expirings. Add a first if need be.

Is this assuming Marion extends his contract, or are we happy to get rid of Mo's contract for a one year rental of Marion?

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of clearing cap space in Milwaukee since it has proven to lead to nothign but overpaying below average players to get them here.

I wouldn't have a problem giving him a contract or letting him walk. Realistically though, if we wanted to re-sign him who would have the cap space to compete with us? I haven't looked so I don't know.

I think many people underrate cap space as well. Even if you aren't players for the big name free agents, it's still useful to have extra money. The Clippers don't get Marcus Camby for basically nothing if they don't have cap space. You can get good players in trades without matching salary if you have cap space.

[BDUB_30]

i would do this in a minute ...


Not to big on downgrading the pg position , or i should be more specific .. .Possibly downgrading the pg position by trading mo and starting Ramon . But with this kind of situation where we dramatically improve another position .. We would have to go for it .


Marion is so active on both ends , this roster would be a so much diffrent then what weve seen here in milwaukee say ....... the past 20 years ? I think rj is the most athletic hooper weve had here in 20 years . meaning a guy that can actually play AND is atheltic .. ( i dont want to read darvin ham or haislip is more atheltic the rj ) ...RJ mixed with Marion would be tremendous ....


Make that trade in a minute , **** mo .

[BDUB_30]

Mo/Des/CV. They get a good fit next to Wade in Mo and about $8 million in expirings. Add a first if need be.

Is this assuming Marion extends his contract, or are we happy to get rid of Mo's contract for a one year rental of Marion?

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of clearing cap space in Milwaukee since it has proven to lead to nothign but overpaying below average players to get them here.

I dont think its safe to speak in absolutes in regards to such a broad strategy to build a team . To suggest that clearing cap isnt a good idea for the bucks because Harris wasnt to savy in his decision making ( or just flat out had bad luck ) is short sided .


Using that line of logic we probablly shouldnt draft or resign our own free agents ... Concidering harris or any of the gms weve seen here in milwaukee havent exactally made good moves .


I think a team can do fine by clearing some cap space , as building thru the draft , or trades .. All of those aveneues work fine . The common denominator is you need to be savy and make good decisions in regards to the talent you aquire , and hope for a bit of luck .. I dont think its safe to say milwaukee should eliminate any strategy to get better .


Would i rent marion for a year at the cost of Mo ? Tough one , but i roll the dice and do it and hope milwaukee can be competitive and then worse case scenerio you work out a SnT if marion doesnt want to stay ..

[raferfenix]

I think a Mo/Dez/CV package might be as good an offer as the Heat will get, but it might have to be a 3 way deal for them to pull the trigger. They have absolutely no need for CV and I'm not sure how much they need Dez wtih a James Jones and Dorrell Wright tandem already. Even if they want Dez as a 15 minute per game kind of guy, at the least CV would go to a third team I bet.

[trwi7]

I think a Mo/Dez/CV package might be as good an offer as the Heat will get, but it might have to be a 3 way deal for them to pull the trigger. They have absolutely no need for CV and I'm not sure how much they need Dez wtih a James Jones and Dorrell Wright tandem already. Even if they want Dez as a 15 minute per game kind of guy, at the least CV would go to a third team I bet.

I was thinking they wouldn't want Mason as anything more than an expiring and CV is one as well. CV could also provide some scoring off the bench for them. I don't think they need to trade Marion either, so if that's the best offer they get and they still don't feel it's enough then they'll just let him walk after the season and wait for Boozer or LeBron or whoever.

[raferfenix]

I think a Mo/Dez/CV package might be as good an offer as the Heat will get, but it might have to be a 3 way deal for them to pull the trigger. They have absolutely no need for CV and I'm not sure how much they need Dez wtih a James Jones and Dorrell Wright tandem already. Even if they want Dez as a 15 minute per game kind of guy, at the least CV would go to a third team I bet.

I was thinking they wouldn't want Mason as anything more than an expiring and CV is one as well. CV could also provide some scoring off the bench for them. I don't think they need to trade Marion either, so if that's the best offer they get and they still don't feel it's enough then they'll just let him walk after the season and wait for Boozer or LeBron or whoever.

I can definitely see the Heat only valuing Dez and CV as expirings (though Dez might play some backup SF), and that's the problme----I'm not sure that Mo and expirings are enough to entice them to drop Marion either. If that's the case they might just hold out and see if they can get Hinrich, Gordon, or Nocioni along wtih Drew Gooden's ending deal from Chicago.

This is why I'm hoping we can find a good three way trade to get them a center, which is a position they are fairly desperately in need of improvement too. Theoretically they might want a gadz for Banks swap, but I don't think the difference is big enough where they'd want to take on gadz's extra salary though.

However, if Jeff Foster or Anderson Varajao could be swung the Heat's way, I bet this deal gets done. If we could get them Varajao I think it'd be particulalry likely, as he could end up being their long term center if Riley decides to bail on the cap room dream or finds anotehr way to drop money.

[Hoops23]

Mo is a nice talent to pair Wade with. But the issue is his contract.

The Heat will passed.

[paulpressey25]

Rafer, I think you are really stretching here. That blog site talks about a possible S&T to a bunch of teams. And it never even mentions Marion.

I think we can debate whether Riley would take Mo for Haslem simply by virtue of Mo's contract being larger and longer, but I can't see him giving up a $17mm salary slot and his starting PF for Ben Gordon. I suppose if the Bulls tossed in some other big-time player maybe, but you'd have to assume that Marion's salary slot is being held open for Carlos Boozer next summer.

[aboveAverage]

I would love that Marion trade, but I am kind of sick of hearing Mo for Haslem rumors. I don't understand where the love for Haslem is coming from. Haslem is an average power forward who had one good year on that championship team. He's really nothing special. I would hope we could get more for Mo Williams than Udonis Haslem. Malik Allen is basically Udonis Haslem.

[old skool]

If the Bucks trade a combination of Mo/Des/CV/Gadz that is roughly equal to Marion's $17.1-million contract, they would have to fill out the rest of their roster with players making the minimum. Things could get ugly at point guard with career backup Lue and unproven Sessions.

I think that we need to look at what the Heat is looking for. Riley has stated that he wants to clear cap space for 2010. That means that if he trades Marion, he would like to get back contracts that end in 2009-10. Mo and Gadz both extend beyond 2010, and CV will require an extension by then, unless he plays for a qualifying offer. It would seem that the Bucks do not have contracts that would be attractive to the Heat.

oLd sKool

[GrandAdmiralDan]

Mo/Des/CV. They get a good fit next to Wade in Mo and about $8 million in expirings. Add a first if need be.

Is this assuming Marion extends his contract, or are we happy to get rid of Mo's contract for a one year rental of Marion?

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of clearing cap space in Milwaukee since it has proven to lead to nothign but overpaying below average players to get them here.

I wouldn't have a problem giving him a contract or letting him walk. Realistically though, if we wanted to re-sign him who would have the cap space to compete with us? I haven't looked so I don't know.

I think many people underrate cap space as well. Even if you aren't players for the big name free agents, it's still useful to have extra money. The Clippers don't get Marcus Camby for basically nothing if they don't have cap space. You can get good players in trades without matching salary if you have cap space.

You are correct about that additional benefit of having cap space in general, but unless the Bucks would make other significant moves as well, even with subtracting Mo (and without adding more salary in the meantime) they could theoretically operate below the salary cap if they choose, but it would be at an amount that is less than the MLE while only accounting for 8 players under contract plus the 2009 1st and 2nd round picks.

However, if a middseason trade of Charlie Bell for an expiring contract to a team looking to for extra depth in a playoff push, or even Charlie Bell to a team with a DPE from a season ending injury (like how we acquired Boykins from Denver) then we'd be more in the ballpark of having some cap space next offseason.

I can't say that strategy makes much sense considering our circumstances with Redd and Jefferson in particular.

But there is always value in saving money if your owner is operating the team on a budget, which is currently the case with our team, so I too think it is not really accurate to talk about Marion "walking for nothing" etc.

I'll disregard whether or not Miami would do this for now and just say that I think this would be a great trade for the Bucks whether or not Marion agreed to an extension as part of this trade and whether or not Marion ended up re-signing here.

If we'd have Marion past this season while retaining our other major parts besides what we gave up in the trade for Marion, great. If not, then we could add to the payroll in a different fashion, such as going after a full MLE free agent next offseason. With our current payroll that includes Mo, Kohl isn't going to approve that kind of spending unless circumstances change (which may include Kohl changing his mind, something our whimsical owner is very prone to doing).

There are enough ways that we'd benefit from this trade that I'd instantly pull the trigger.

[raferfenix]

Rafer, I think you are really stretching here. That blog site talks about a possible S&T to a bunch of teams. And it never even mentions Marion.

I think we can debate whether Riley would take Mo for Haslem simply by virtue of Mo's contract being larger and longer, but I can't see him giving up a $17mm salary slot and his starting PF for Ben Gordon. I suppose if the Bulls tossed in some other big-time player maybe, but you'd have to assume that Marion's salary slot is being held open for Carlos Boozer next summer.

It's definitely a stretch, but waht the hell else do we have to talk about

That insider is extremely respected and has called a variety of bulls moves before they were made, and I also just don't see any other scenario where the heat get gordon besides a deal involving marion. I do think it'd involve other substantial players too though, and that's why I started this thread----to see if even in this scenario if our Mo based offer could compete.

The Heat don't need Marion to start at PF and he's far from an ideal SF considering how few shooters they already have. Plus, I doubt they want to lose him for nothing, and Wade is making noise about how he wants a PG. I can easily see them wanting to trade for a long term backcourt mate for Wade in a Marion deal if they still have neough cap room to go after free agnets.

so yeah, it's a stretch, but their reported Gordon interest does make this at the extreme least minorly more likely given that insiders credibility.

[eagle13]

I gladly rent Marion for 1 yr for all reasons stated. Next year we have otpions - resign, S&T, or let walk and get cap space that IS useful for reasons stated.

This version gives Heat a useful Center and a choice of Bell or Cv.

BUCKS
GET Marion
GIVE Mo, Dez, protected 1st, CV OR Bell (whichever Heat prefer)

PACERS
GET Dez, 1st
GIVE Foster

HEAT
GET Mo, Foster, CV OR Bell
GIVE Marion
WHY get PG, a solid 5 who they can let expire or resign and their preference of CV's scoring and expiring or bell as 3G who they tried to get last year.

[coolhandluke121]

Gordon to the Heat? Hmmmm. I think they already have a pretty good sg but I'll go to nba.com to check on that and report back in a second...

Sarcasm aside, Pat Riley better trade for some good players and quit this "cap space in 2010" charade. Wade will ask for a trade long before then. He only has a few years left in his physical prime, why would he stick around on a bad Heat team that's not even trying to improve in the short-term on the off-chance that they might be able to make a major free agent splash in 2 years? Think about Wade's options:

Option A:
Stay with the Heat 2 more years and be lucky to make the playoffs. Hope the Heat make a huge fa acquisition in 2010 so they become a contender, which is dicey at best.

Option B:
Use the leverage of unrestricted free agency to force a trade to a team that's a contender now and will still be a contender in 2010.

Hmmmm. The Heat might be a contender in 2010 but will certainly struggle until then because they aren't willing to take on any contracts. Plenty of other teams that already are contenders would love to add Wade now, and are more likely than the Heat to still be contenders in 2010. Bottom line, how many ultra-competitive superstars who want to win have been willing to wait a few years while the team rebuilds? Riley better make some moves this summer. He really screwed the pooch when he didn't use the expiring contracts of Williams and Davis to add talent, and he's compounding the problem by keeping the #2 pick and telling his star to wait a few years and we'll be good again. If Wade is worthy of his reputation at all he will demand a trade by the deadline.

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

So what the hell are you saying?????

Is this a link you saw or your own comments!? Don't get cute, just come out and say it.

I thought this is a leak or rumor you got from someone else not you. We know you like Marion. So does everyone else. But can't we come up with something new in here.

Why didnt you make this thread title personal and I would have overlooked it thinking you got it from some other source! This is just another repeat TI just worded differently...what a bore.

Stop with these misleading title threads. They annoy me. Just come out and say Marion trade idea for the 1 millionth time!

Dont try to disguise it and hide behind another poster! JUST COME OUT AND SAY TRADE IDEA if that is what you meant.

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

Gordon to the Heat? Hmmmm. I think they already have a pretty good sg but I'll go to nba.com to check on that and report back in a second...

Sarcasm aside, Pat Riley better trade for some good players and quit this "cap space in 2010" charade. Wade will ask for a trade long before then. He only has a few years left in his physical prime, why would he stick around on a bad Heat team that's not even trying to improve in the short-term on the off-chance that they might be able to make a major free agent splash in 2 years? Think about Wade's options:

Option A:
Stay with the Heat 2 more years and be lucky to make the playoffs. Hope the Heat make a huge fa acquisition in 2010 so they become a contender, which is dicey at best.

Option B:
Use the leverage of unrestricted free agency to force a trade to a team that's a contender now and will still be a contender in 2010.

Hmmmm. The Heat might be a contender in 2010 but will certainly struggle until then because they aren't willing to take on any contracts. Plenty of other teams that already are contenders would love to add Wade now, and are more likely than the Heat to still be contenders in 2010. Bottom line, how many ultra-competitive superstars who want to win have been willing to wait a few years while the team rebuilds? Riley better make some moves this summer. He really screwed the pooch when he didn't use the expiring contracts of Williams and Davis to add talent, and he's compounding the problem by keeping the #2 pick and telling his star to wait a few years and we'll be good again. If Wade is worthy of his reputation at all he will demand a trade by the deadline.

Option A
Is not dicey at best...
That is what they should do...

Riley is doing it right. Miami is a hotspot destination in the entire league. He is doing it to get cap room...with Wade and Beasley are you crazy!? Players will flock to Miami in two years!

Boozer and a host of others...to play with Wade and Beasley...get a grip! He knows what he is doing.

[Flash is the Future]

If Miami were to make a move to acquire a Hinrich/Williams type PG signed past 2010, Banks would have to be in the trade. There's no way around it. I don't see that working out here as the Bucks already have Bell signed long term.