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CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers

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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#81 » by BuckFan25226 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:42 pm

You've made a big thing out of logic here and tried to ridicule Paul, but where's the logic to what you said?


Well anytime someone says tells someone to leave logic out of an argument, I find that easy to ridicule. Of course I was having fun with it. And I would hope Paul didn't mean logic shouldn't be brought into this argument, because that's ridiculous.
For instance, when Twirl first quoted Paul he left out the rest of Paul's comment which made his own reply redundant. Twirl missed Paul's point, then set up a straw man to knock over, and you called it logic.


I agree with Paul that Kaman probably should be a little higher on that list. But I think Bynum will be a better player then Kaman next year.

And because the list was compiled based on projections, you think logic tells us that Bynum will be getting more minutes, more touches, more points, more rebounds, blocks etc. It might be a reasonable expectation, but I'm not sure how you can make a conclusion now and call it logical as though there are no other alternatives.


Do you mind telling me your perceived definition of logic? I think you are arguing that it's not a fact Bynum will or will not improve. I'm not saying it's a guarantee or fact that Bynum will in FACT do these things. But based on reading that Bynum is a huge part of LA's plan next year, the rapid rate he improved last year, and watching him play, he's an absolute beast with loads of talent.

Right now you have no idea of how Bynum will co-exist with Gasol. And last season he was out for longer than expected with his knee injury, so how can you be so sure that he will play more minutes? That's about as logical as calling another poster's comments "null and void" when others agree with him that the list is flawed



No, I don't, but logic tells me a huge hole in that team in the playoffs last year was a lack of a big man who could defend, rebound and finish around the rim. If you want to argue an extremely small possibility that Andrew Bynums knee somehow gets injured again, that's not very logical. Here is a link about Bynums current health and his knee http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lak ... ?track=rss .... Now if I read anything different before the season starts, I will change my tune. You can sit there and speculate with what if's all you want. But to sum up my logic for Bynum having a very good season next year

Logical Reason's..

1.) The link I provided up above. Andrew Bynum is now healthy again.
2.) Look at Bynum's pattern of improvement from year 1 to 3. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=2748 Every year he's gotten more minutes, more touches, he has improved drastically improved. Therefore what logical indication do we have that he will suddenly take a step back and regress?

3.) Watching Andrew Bynum, how much he has matured at the young age of 20. The power he has, his touch around the rim, his ability to rebound and defend, he will most likely improve. Is it a forgone conclusion he will become even better, of course not. But logic tells me by watching him on the court, watching how much he's improved, knowing he's healthy. I feel Andrew Bynum will be even better next year. If you disagree, I need more then "Well you dont know!" And what if's.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#82 » by jerrod » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:47 pm

paul wrote:
And Bogut got into that how? Good jokes are my thing, bad jokes aren't, and sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Since when isn't logic my thing? I'm lots of fun at parties, because I don't talk basketball :).



welcome to the bucks board, it's ALL about andrew bogut, ALL :D
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#83 » by paul » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:55 pm

For what it's worth if you actually read my post you would see that I told twirl not to try to boil the argument down to logic that didn't exist. Logic of course exists in the argument, but twirl imo was missing it, or more to the point trying to create a logical argument by using Per48, a flawed statistic imo. I.e. Don't try to create a different version of logic.
If your going to ridicule someone I find it pays to understand what your ridiculing.....

Absolutely no-one is saying Bynum won't improve, what myself and a few others are saying is that having Bynum on a list of centers for next year at #3 and Kaman at #11 is absolutely ridiculous based on any LOGICAL argument. I seriously don't know how many times I and others have to say Bynum has immense talent and of course he is likely to continue improving, but he's coming from a long way back on many of the players that he's already ranked against, particularly given all this is based on 35 games. Your being given a lot more than 'well you don't know' and 'what if's', whether you choose to listen is up to you.

Also, I've never heard doctors say that a sportsman is healthy right before they injure themselves :roll:
Of course it's unlikely that he will but I hope that's not really your number 1 'logical reason' that he'll be the #3 center next season.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#84 » by paul » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:58 pm

jerrod wrote:
paul wrote:
And Bogut got into that how? Good jokes are my thing, bad jokes aren't, and sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Since when isn't logic my thing? I'm lots of fun at parties, because I don't talk basketball :).



welcome to the bucks board, it's ALL about andrew bogut, ALL :D


Fair enough :)
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#85 » by BobbyLight » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:39 pm

So because I am bored at work and I think it's crazy that people are questioning Lukes comment on Bogut being above average, I sat with a spreadsheet and figured it out. I took the top 30 centers in the leauge (30 teams, 30 centers) and sorted their stats on PPG, RPB, BPG, APG, Double Doubles, FG% and FT%. Here is what I found

PPG: Bogut - 14.3, NBA Average from top 30 centers - 11.97.
FG%: Bogut - .511, NBA Average - .5171
FT%: Bogut - .587, NBA .6854
RPG: Bogut 9.8, NBA - 8.9
BPG: Bogut - 1.7, NBA - 1.59
APG: Bogut - 2.6, NBA - 1.52
Double Doubles: Bogut - 38, NBA - 20.96

So in my prusit to defend Bogut being an above average center, I found out he wasn't. The only areas he truly excels against the average is PPG and APG. His blocks and FG% are average. RPG is slightly above average and his FT% is well below average. The Double Double's are nice, but when looking at the other stats in relation just makes Bogut look very average.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#86 » by James1980 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:12 pm

Those numbers show that Bogut is above average in scoring, rebounds, blocks, assists, and double doubles, average at FG% and below average FT%. How does that not support him being above average?

That list has a lot of PFs (Sheed, Okafor) and missed Al Jefferson who played mostly Center last year, didn't he? Here's my top ten:

1. Howard
2. Yao
3. Al Jefferson
4. Bynum
5. Bogut
6. Camby
7. Chandler
8. Oden
9. Shaq
10. Kaman
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#87 » by LUKE23 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:43 pm

If all are healthy, I'd go:

1. Howard
2. Yao (major health questions but a stud all-around when healthy)
3. Camby (major health questions but a stud all-around when healthy)
4. Jefferson
5. JO (major health questions but a stud all-around when healthy)
6. Bynum
7. Oden (based on potential)
8. Bogut
9. Okafor
10. Kaman (8-10 you can probably argue in any order, I give nod to Bogut based on that he's the youngest and IMO has the most room to improve over the other two).
11. R. Wallace (age, on the decline)
12. Shaq (age, on the decline)
13. Chandler
14. Illgauskas (age, on the decline)
15. Dalembert
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#88 » by LISTEN2JAZZ » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:53 pm

You can't just pick and choose statistical categories to look at and then tally up how many are above or below the median. The degree of deviation from that baseline is very important, as is including all areas of production, positive and negative. If you look at points without also looking at turnovers and everything else, you're greatly inflating the importance of scoring vs. its role in real life.

That being said, I think Bogut's role in relation to other centers is being more or less established in this thread. He doesn't belong up with the game changers like Howard and Yao, but he also isn't down with the negative contributers like Jermaine O'Neal (who shoots an atrocious 44%, and turns the ball over more than he assists). If average means literally the 15th ranked center, then he's certainly above average. But if average means all the starters who don't stick out as being definitely in the top or bottom group, then it's a fair term. The word can be used so many ways.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#89 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:56 pm

I guess I have Chandler higher than here. He's an automatic double double, covers a lot of ground with great athleticism, and scores efficiently from the floor. The fact that he doesn't have any range is negated somewhat because he moves well without the ball and finishes better than most. Right now, outside of passing, I'm not sure what it is that Bogut does better than Chandler.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#90 » by LUKE23 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:18 pm

Bogut blocked more shots than Chandler last year as well. You also have to take into account that Chandler's numbers spiked dramatically once he got to play next to a legit offensive PF (West) and the best passing PG in the league. Bogut has played next to trash at PF and a shoot-first PG.

It depends what kind of roster you have. If you need another offensive option, I'll take Bogut over Chandler no question. If you need more rebounding and have offense to make up the difference at other spots, I'll take Chandler.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#91 » by trwi7 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:23 pm

paul wrote:trying to create a logical argument by using Per48, a flawed statistic imo. I.e. Don't try to create a different version of logic.


Hey, I was using 36 minutes, not 48. :wink:

Also, the only reason I used that is because you were making such a big deal about Bynum being third on the list when he was averaging 13/10 and Kaman was 13th or whatever he was when he was averaging 16/13. I was just saying it's flawed to use points per game and rebounds per game as your argument without taking into account that Kaman played about 9 more minutes per game on average than Bynum did.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#92 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:30 pm

LUKE23 wrote:Bogut blocked more shots than Chandler last year as well. You also have to take into account that Chandler's numbers spiked dramatically once he got to play next to a legit offensive PF (West) and the best passing PG in the league. Bogut has played next to trash at PF and a shoot-first PG.

It depends what kind of roster you have. If you need another offensive option, I'll take Bogut over Chandler no question. If you need more rebounding and have offense to make up the difference at other spots, I'll take Chandler.


Chandler's blocked 1.8 per game twice in his career, as well.

As for who he's playing next to, that's always been part of my issue with giving Bogut that big contract. I think his numbers go down this season for a variety of reasons, the cast around him being the primary one. Chandler was great last season on a winning team, was able to score efficiently and rebound the hell out of the ball. If Bogut has that type of season and the Bucks win consistently I'll be thrilled.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#93 » by LUKE23 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:36 pm

Well, he was probably the fourth best player on the team. Playing next to a PG like Paul is such a coup for a big man like Chandler, or any big man for that matter. It also helps when defensive attention on a guy like West allows you to get more weakside rebounds and receive less defensive attention. Chandler is definitely a valuable player, but I don't think it's a coincidence his FG% spiked after he went to NO, after three out of five seasons under 50% in Chicago.

I would love to see Bogut with a PG like Paul. Sadly, those kind of guys are impossible to find.

Bogut's numbers should go up this season. It's one of the few reasons I can endorse landing Ridnour, he will rarely look to shot and he does know how to post pass and get people the ball in good offensive position. Mo was the worst post-passing PG I've seen in a long time. I also don't see numbers going down just because we don't have anyone off the bench in the frontcourt that is going to take away FGA from Bogut.

Skiles comments on Mo/Redd ignoring Bogut after Bogut got good position are telling. It's really one of the few game/scheme-specific things he has mentioned this entire offseason, outside of saying "we will rebound, we will defend, etc".
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#94 » by totcd » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:02 pm

i like how the original article used the term "projected impact" in 08-09 rather then say "statistical impact". which could lend itself to ranking on who is going to impact their team more rather then who is going to get better stats but 'impact' the team less.

hence the fact that camby is 5 on the list. (its interesting that gasol's effect on bynum's production has been mentioned, but no mention of camby's effect on kamens production. both LA teams will probably play both guys together quite a bit...).

obviously the list has some anomalies, but without stats being the key ingredient in the rankings, the list becomes alot more subjective, rather then objective.

surely having a healthy bynaum, or oden (or j.oneal) will make a bigger impact in LA and portland then bogut averaging an extra 4 points and 3 rebs a game (that we hope for) will have for us.

Also, it doesnt say whether the impact is positive or negative... thats the only reason i can think for shaq being 4 and rasheed being 6......
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#95 » by midranger » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:29 am

Chris Paul kind of guys are only impossible to get if you draft an average center #1 overall.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#96 » by Newz » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:48 am

midranger wrote:Chris Paul kind of guys are only impossible to get if you draft an average center #1 overall.


Yeah, we definitely took the 14th best center in the NBA over the 'impossible to get' guy. :lol:
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#97 » by paul » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:40 am

trwi7 wrote:
paul wrote:trying to create a logical argument by using Per48, a flawed statistic imo. I.e. Don't try to create a different version of logic.


Hey, I was using 36 minutes, not 48. :wink:

Also, the only reason I used that is because you were making such a big deal about Bynum being third on the list when he was averaging 13/10 and Kaman was 13th or whatever he was when he was averaging 16/13. I was just saying it's flawed to use points per game and rebounds per game as your argument without taking into account that Kaman played about 9 more minutes per game on average than Bynum did.


Yeah I know twirl we sorted that out long ago, but Buckfan wanted to ridicule me for saying something to you that he misunderstood, so I explained it to him.



My list for next season -

1. Howard
2. Yao
3. Kaman
4. Jefferson
5. Bynum
6. Bogut
7. Camby
8. Okafor
9. Chandler
10. JO
11. Oden
12. Dalambert
13. Z
14. Biedrins
15. Sheed
16. Shaq
17. Miller
18. Haywood
19. Okur
20. Perkins

A few thoughts - I'm being conservative with Oden and I know it, he may well blow up higher than that.
I don't consider Horford a C so left him out, otherwise he's around the 15-18 mark.
Camby is sinking because I think his man defense dropped off sharply last year, he still looks sweet with the flying weakside block though and is an excellent rebounder....
Sheed, Z, Shaq and Miller are all on various levels of decline imo, Shaq and Sheed will have some great games though I'm sure.
Okur's defense is rubbish which keeps him low.
Want to see if JO gets on the court, if he does he's probably higher than that.
Jefferson is a PF but plays almost exclusively C - if he played PF he'd be a better defender but really struggles against big C's giving Kaman the edge on him, his offense is excellent though.
Positions 5-8 could mix up any different way, I'm counting on another slight improvement for Bogut on his last 50 games (something like 16-17/11/3/1.8) otherwise the 3 below him could all move up.
Biedrins is being overlooked a bit imo, he's another young guy on the rise for me.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#98 » by jerrod » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:34 am

midranger wrote:Chris Paul kind of guys are only impossible to get if you draft an average center #1 overall.



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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#99 » by LUKE23 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:37 am

Well, no one was talking about Paul as the #1 pick. Hindsight is 20/20. The debate was only Bogut vs. Marvin, Deron and Paul were never in the discussion. So yes, Bucks passed on him, but it's not like everyone was screaming for Paul #1 and they took a stiff. Bogut can play, just took longer to show it.
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Re: CBS Sportsline Top 20 Centers 

Post#100 » by bayrdbandit » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:10 am

LUKE23 wrote:If all are healthy, I'd go:

1. Howard
2. Yao (major health questions but a stud all-around when healthy)
3. Camby (major health questions but a stud all-around when healthy)
4. Jefferson
5. JO (major health questions but a stud all-around when healthy)
6. Bynum
7. Oden (based on potential)
8. Bogut
9. Okafor
10. Kaman (8-10 you can probably argue in any order, I give nod to Bogut based on that he's the youngest and IMO has the most room to improve over the other two).
11. R. Wallace (age, on the decline)
12. Shaq (age, on the decline)
13. Chandler
14. Illgauskas (age, on the decline)
15. Dalembert


good list. though i'd switch yao and howard. howard's a beast, but yao's a game-changer. although this might be the year that all changes. i'd also switch kaman and okafor.

i'm with paul on this little debate. bynum is the product of a hype machine. he's a good player and he'll be getting better, but holy crap, the hype surrounding this kid is ridiculous. the pressure for him to succeed and become an all-star is massive now.

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