Sporting News Ranks Redd 27th Among Top 50 NBA Players

[Nowak008]

I don't care about the Rick Barry thing, mistakes happen. I just didn't like how there couldn't have been a Redd is 27th, but Yao, Caron Butler, West, Ginobli, Gasol, Roy, Brand are all ranked lower. There should have been an analysis of the faulty list.


BTW I hope Europa I hope you don't leave because the battles with you are Epic.

[europa]

BTW I hope Europa I hope you don't leave because the battles with you are Epic.

epi and I have gotten along great for quite awhile now. At least I'm under the impression we have.

Boy did I read that wrong or what? Oh well, I guess it's fitting given the thread.

[trwi7]

Sentence structure fail by Nowak.

[europa]

Sentence structure fail by Nowak.

Didn't help any that I totally read something he didn't even say.

[REDDzone]

BTW I hope Europa I hope you don't leave because the battles with you are Epic.

+1 (assuming I read that sentence right? )

Europa is great at generating discussion and is one of the better posters on this board. The fact that some are so obsessed with his opinions just proves that fact IMO.

[Joana]

Thank you for the reference, CBQ. Truly praise from Cesar.

Well, I'll play the devil's advocate and stand up for Rick Barry and his list. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it. Many have pointed the elephant in the room - this list is utterly biased and skewed in favour of sharp-shooters. I agree. Up to a point though: being the evaluation of basketball players an exercise of subjectivity - as there isn't, to my knowledge, an universal and objective standard -, I'm glad Rick Barry opted for questioning and challenging the conventional wisdom and that alone is an act of undeniable merit. I'm not saying everything is relative; it isn't. But without further inquiry one can't entirely dismiss Barry's rankings. Evocating pre-established beliefs, even implicitly, is not enough. So, as going through the entire list would be an exhausting exercise, I'd say one can assume that the central point in discussion is if Barry may be correct in his over-appreciation of shooters and the consequent under-appreciation of slashers and post players relatively to the conventional wisdom. I'll resume my argument to that, as it's not necessary to do more.

My favourite NBA player of all-times is probably Kevin McHale. I was too young to watch him when he was actually playing (and few games were broadcasted over here, anyway), but fortunately lucked into a collection of VHS tapes featuring play-offs games from the 80's (and great announcers like Dick Stockton, Tommy Heinshon, Hubbie Brown, later Marv Albert, etc. to whom I owe a big part of my love for and understanding of the game). McHale was an extraordinary player due to his amazing foot-work in the post. Hakeem was probably better with his body and hands, Sabonis was surely more gifted, but none had the flair and effectiveness McHale's foot-movement. That allowed him to display the most diversified arsenal of post moves in the history of the NBA: spins, duck-unders, fadeways, he could do it all, including some I doubt that have a name. His ability to move and position himself to take the shot he wanted is unmatched. Now, I'm not going to say that McHale was the best player ever (and therefore it's all relative, Barry can pick whoever he wants, bla bla). I'd just invite you to compare McHale with the current upper echelon of post players. It's depressing. Most of these players possess a single polished "skill": the dunk. You can see All-Stars who don't even master the basics of post positioning, like sticking a foot between the defender legs. A guy can make a career with a single movement, say a baby hook with the right hand, as long as he is tall and wide enough. We can leave Duncan out of this discussion as the exception. For some odd reason, the dislodging rule stop being called and Shaq virtually buldozzed his way to the HoF. The two next big thinks, the superman and the glassman, are basically inept offensively - just very big and athletic. What I mean by this is that great post play is a completely absent skill these days - just compare the physically giants but technically midgets we see today with the greats of the past (I know a change of rulesd - the end of illegal defense - has had an impact, but we can forget that for a minute).

I'm going to be short addressing the "slashers", as it is a subject than annoys me. Most of them achieved notoriety through the execution of two movements: the art of traveling in the first step (subsidized by the league) and jumping into people. They should be arrested on assault charges and leave the court for those who want to play basketball.

The next step is to compare this depressing panorama with the jump-shooters. Jump-shooting is somewhat a lost art, but the good jump-shooters of our times are as good as their notable ancestors, if not better. So, now that we have established beyond doubt the pathetic state of the quality of post players and driving wingers, comes a very important question? Would those unskilled gentlemen be able to step on a court if it wasn't for the jump-shooters? Any simple 2-3 zone defense would annihilate those guys, I can guarantee that. They are not good enough to create their own shot in that particular condition, they'd need others helping them to create space. Spacing is a very under-rated skill in basketball (in the pro-game, it's not that important on other levels), and without jump-shooters there's no way of creating it at the NBA level. Basketball is about space, position and decision; as one keen observer once said, it's just like chess, only without the dice. So, I'd say that Barry only revealed a fatal misconception of today's common understanding of the game - long-range jump-shooters are way under-rated.

Assuming this premise as good, it's easy to make the case for Redd as the 37th best player in the NBA: he's indeed one of the best and most proficient shooters in the game, one of the few that can dominate a game from behind the line. His advantage in this essential offensive skills makes up for his deficiencies in other - less vitals, as proved - aspects of the game.

I, for one, appreciate Rick Barry's effort in providing a different approach to the art of ranking NBA players.

[unklchuk]

wow

I was going to praise this comment about Europa:

"The fact that some are so obsessed with his opinions just proves that fact IMO."

But times have changed. It's a different world. This thread is now post-Joana.

[Rockmaninoff]

wow

I was going to praise this comment about Europa:

"The fact that some are so obsessed with his opinions just proves that fact IMO."

But times have changed. It's a different world. This thread is now post-Joana.

The king is dead. Long live the queen.

[midranger]

Well thought out and worded post.

However, in the past 20+ years, I can think of plenty of post players and slashers who lead their teams to the Championship/Finals. I can't think of many jump shooters who have done the same.

Whether one likes it or not, the way the NBA game is called these players hold all the advantages. This makes jump shooters FAR less valuable, than in say... college where the 3 pt. arc is a layup and teams are allowed to hand check/play zone defenses.

[Joana]

Well thought out and worded post.

However, in the past 20+ years, I can think of plenty of post players and slashers who lead their teams to the Championship/Finals. I can't think of many jump shooters who have done the same.

Whether one likes it or not, the way the NBA game is called these players hold all the advantages. This makes jump shooters FAR less valuable, than in say... college where the 3 pt. arc is a layup and teams are allowed to hand check/play zone defenses.

That's true, midranger. I can't think of none, to be honest. Bird was much more than a jump-shooter, ditto for Isiah. Maybe a case could be made to the Reggie Miller's Pacers as a perennial contender lead by a jump-shooter, but they never win it all and Miller was not exactly a super-star carrying a team on his shoulders.

However, my argument is not primarily, let alone strictly, based on stylistically preferences. The crucial point is the concept of spacing - since zones are allowed, no team can win a championship without proper spacing, therefore without long-range jump-shooters that can stretch zone defenses or punish over-help in the post or penetrations. Using you analogy, I'd say spacing is much more important - in the sense that it's more difficult to create - in the NBA than at lower levels, because of the size, quickness and awareness of the defenders. At the middle school level, is almost a moot point, for example. Besides that, I'm not arguing that Ray Allen and Steve Nash should be top-5 players or Kapono and Kyle Korver All-Stars - merely that jump-shooters, or more properly, the importance of their role, is, to a certain degree, underestimated.

p.s. - In the interest of full disclosure, I'd like to say that I don't endorse everything I write. The footwork of guys like Pierce, Kobe or Ginobili is a thing of beauty.

[midranger]

Oh, there always needs to be a sharp shooter on the court at all times. That's for sure. That's why I want LRMAM to work tirelessly on his range from the corner.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Thank you for the reference, CBQ. Truly praise from Cesar.

Well, I'll play the devil's advocate and stand up for Rick Barry and his list. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it. Many have pointed the elephant in the room - this list is utterly biased and skewed in favour of sharp-shooters. I agree. Up to a point though: being the evaluation of basketball players an exercise of subjectivity - as there isn't, to my knowledge, an universal and objective standard -, I'm glad Rick Barry opted for questioning and challenging the conventional wisdom and that alone is an act of undeniable merit. I'm not saying everything is relative; it isn't. But without further inquiry one can't entirely dismiss Barry's rankings. Evocating pre-established beliefs, even implicitly, is not enough. So, as going through the entire list would be an exhausting exercise, I'd say one can assume that the central point in discussion is if Barry may be correct in his over-appreciation of shooters and the consequent under-appreciation of slashers and post players relatively to the conventional wisdom. I'll resume my argument to that, as it's not necessary to do more.

My favourite NBA player of all-times is probably Kevin McHale. I was too young to watch him when he was actually playing (and few games were broadcasted over here, anyway), but fortunately lucked into a collection of VHS tapes featuring play-offs games from the 80's (and great announcers like Dick Stockton, Tommy Heinshon, Hubbie Brown, later Marv Albert, etc. to whom I owe a big part of my love for and understanding of the game). McHale was an extraordinary player due to his amazing foot-work in the post. Hakeem was probably better with his body and hands, Sabonis was surely more gifted, but none had the flair and effectiveness McHale's foot-movement. That allowed him to display the most diversified arsenal of post moves in the history of the NBA: spins, duck-unders, fadeways, he could do it all, including some I doubt that have a name. His ability to move and position himself to take the shot he wanted is unmatched. Now, I'm not going to say that McHale was the best player ever (and therefore it's all relative, Barry can pick whoever he wants, bla bla). I'd just invite you to compare McHale with the current upper echelon of post players. It's depressing. Most of these players possess a single polished "skill": the dunk. You can see All-Stars who don't even master the basics of post positioning, like sticking a foot between the defender legs. A guy can make a career with a single movement, say a baby hook with the right hand, as long as he is tall and wide enough. We can leave Duncan out of this discussion as the exception. For some odd reason, the dislodging rule stop being called and Shaq virtually buldozzed his way to the HoF. The two next big thinks, the superman and the glassman, are basically inept offensively - just very big and athletic. What I mean by this is that great post play is a completely absent skill these days - just compare the physically giants but technically midgets we see today with the greats of the past (I know a change of rulesd - the end of illegal defense - has had an impact, but we can forget that for a minute).

I'm going to be short addressing the "slashers", as it is a subject than annoys me. Most of them achieved notoriety through the execution of two movements: the art of traveling in the first step (subsidized by the league) and jumping into people. They should be arrested on assault charges and leave the court for those who want to play basketball.

The next step is to compare this depressing panorama with the jump-shooters. Jump-shooting is somewhat a lost art, but the good jump-shooters of our times are as good as their notable ancestors, if not better. So, now that we have established beyond doubt the pathetic state of the quality of post players and driving wingers, comes a very important question? Would those unskilled gentlemen be able to step on a court if it wasn't for the jump-shooters? Any simple 2-3 zone defense would annihilate those guys, I can guarantee that. They are not good enough to create their own shot in that particular condition, they'd need others helping them to create space. Spacing is a very under-rated skill in basketball (in the pro-game, it's not that important on other levels), and without jump-shooters there's no way of creating it at the NBA level. Basketball is about space, position and decision; as one keen observer once said, it's just like chess, only without the dice. So, I'd say that Barry only revealed a fatal misconception of today's common understanding of the game - long-range jump-shooters are way under-rated.

Assuming this premise as good, it's easy to make the case for Redd as the 37th best player in the NBA: he's indeed one of the best and most proficient shooters in the game, one of the few that can dominate a game from behind the line. His advantage in this essential offensive skills makes up for his deficiencies in other - less vitals, as proved - aspects of the game.

I, for one, appreciate Rick Barry's effort in providing a different approach to the art of ranking NBA players.

Wow joana, it's great having you on the boards! Another woman is always a welcome thing on a male dominated board, but yours especially because your posts have been excellent.

I was preparing to answer another post before I saw this one and changed my mind. Excellent post, this is what should have been talked about or debated in this thread.

[Mike X]

[quote="Rockmaninoff

The king is dead. Long live the queen.[/quote]

Lol

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen:
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:
God save the Queen.

[upnorthfan]

Hi Joana, excellent post, and welcome.

My favourite NBA player of all-times is probably Kevin McHale. .

He is one of mine too.

I was too young to watch him when he was actually playing (and few games were broadcasted over here, anyway), but fortunately lucked into a collection of VHS tapes featuring play-offs games from the 80's (and great announcers like Dick Stockton, Tommy Heinshon, Hubbie Brown, later Marv Albert, etc. to whom I owe a big part of my love for and understanding of the game). McHale was an extraordinary player due to his amazing foot-work in the post. Hakeem was probably better with his body and hands, Sabonis was surely more gifted, but none had the flair and effectiveness McHale's foot-movement. That allowed him to display the most diversified arsenal of post moves in the history of the NBA: spins, duck-unders, fadeways, he could do it all, including some I doubt that have a name. His ability to move and position himself to take the shot he wanted is unmatched. Now, I'm not going to say that McHale was the best player ever (and therefore it's all relative, Barry can pick whoever he wants, bla bla). I'd just invite you to compare McHale with the current upper echelon of post players. It's depressing. Most of these players possess a single polished "skill": the dunk. .

I watched "live" all thoses finals back in the 1980's. I have always said Kevin McHale is the best Power Foward to ever play the game, and there have been some great ones. He also IMO played on the best frontline ever.

He was so long and fluid, and mentally tough, and his fade away jumper was unstoppable, his post moves (footwork wise as you say), was impecable.

Assuming this premise as good, it's easy to make the case for Redd as the 37th best player in the NBA: he's indeed one of the best and most proficient shooters in the game, one of the few that can dominate a game from behind the line. His advantage in this essential offensive skills makes up for his deficiencies in other - less vitals, as proved - aspects of the game. .

27? If it weren't for his contract Redd would be a great sixth man. He is as you basically said, a designated shooter. He can't carry a team, not in a closeout game when going to the line and grinding one out is needed.

He certainly isn't worth almost $200,000 per game. Beyond that he is SOFT, I mean downright, outright, upright, That's right, he is gosh dam soft. He is soft physically and mentally (basketball wise). He's a pretender. If he made Gadz money he would be a very good deal, and he could then be in the sixth man role. But I guess you have to start your max players and be sensitive to egos.

He can't finish in transition! He also passes terribly in transition. Redd is nothing special. I haven't looked at who they have listed behind him, but I am sure there are lots of players you and I both would rather have.

But he is our's, so I will root for him, and support him as long as he plays within the team concept.

If somone burns you at one end, don't try to gt even on the next trip, stay the course of that posession, and get him back later within the flow of what you are doing as a team.

You say Redd's a shooter, I say he HAS BEEN a "chucker". In fact, I labled he and Mo Williams as Chucker 1 and Chucker 2 last year. They were at one time 0-17 in games within four points either way, under six minutes to go last season. We already got rid of half that problem.

You have a talented big man you should at least be going through in tight games, but he never saw the ball...I digress.

IF he can shake those bad habbits and "get his" within the flow of the team and "move" the ball, I say keep him this year and see what happens. He got 23 against Golden State and didn't even score until 14 minutes into the game. They were moving, sharing, playing the game the right way, and they played the best I have seen them play in a long time. I was very encouraged by that.

If he remains a chucker with guys draped all over him with 18 seconds left on the shot clock, I say get rid of him. Have we talked about his porous defense yet?

I, for one, appreciate Rick Barry's effort in providing a different approach to the art of ranking NBA players.

Me too