ImageImage

Could we go after Lee?

Moderators: MickeyDavis, paulpressey25

User avatar
power4wardjinx
Pro Prospect
Posts: 955
And1: 0
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Contact:

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#61 » by power4wardjinx » Tue Jan 6, 2009 1:38 am

Big Mokeski wrote:
power4wardjinx wrote:It's a very passive approach. The instigator is the aggressor, and that's relevant. The report out of NY now is that Portland is aggressively seeking David Lee. Who is going to end up with David Lee? The Trailblazers or the Bucks?


I'm drawing two inferences from your use of the term "aggressive": first, you think that it's a good thing; and second, you think that it's defined by GMs who are constantly working the phones and proposing deals.

I think the second inference undercuts the first. .....
Appearing aggressive is often the wrong way to attempt to negotiate with others. So if you're trying to make the case that Hammond isn't being a good GM because he isn't being aggressive, you're not persuading me.


We use analogies, like poker, in talking about business: John Hammond plays his cards "close to the vest." One could say he likes safe bets. I'm not a gambler, so I'm short on examples. He's not what one would call "an old horse trader." He lays back, waits for deals to come to him. I agree that can be a good thing; but when you've got horrible chemistry in your hand as the Bucks did at the end of last season, you're not fooling anybody. Why let others dictate your course?

Was Hammond actively trying to swap the # 8 pick? Has he been consistently trying, as is said here regularly, to trade Charlie V? Was Redd ever on the block? Was a course ever plotted on these matters? If it was, he was not active (substituting active for aggressive) in pursuing those things. Instead, the Bucks got stuck with the pick and fans were told Joe Alexander could play PF (red flag). Fans were also told Jefferson and Redd would complement each other (sure, if you forget that RJ was a 2nd/3rd option player all his career and that Redd doesn't pass the ball) - another red flag.

Had Hammond been actively (aggressively) trying to make a move with the pick and trying to trade Charlie V, it would be done. Instead, we've reduced the value the lottery pick had by taking Joe, and we've still got Charlie and Redd. No I don't want to write Joe off but he's hardly the resource T.J. Ford #8 or Yi Jianlian #6 or even Charlie V #7 turned out to be. He was not decisive about a direction or aggressive in pursuing it r.e. the pick he wasn't very excited about in the first place.

In the NBA you have to be active, imo. Aggressive? Yes. In my mind this means seeking out available options based on the direction you've set and acting on them -- not necessarily being aggressive in the conduct of negotiations, as you suggest. If Hammond was not a passive gm, Charlie V wouldn't be a Buck.

It's possible moving Charlie is not a priority. However, if the Houston rumors were true and I believe they were, it is a priority, and Hammond was in that instance being active -- he brought the Lakers into it and put it together. This is a good sign -- but it's also something he had NOT been doing all fall-plus -- three or four months. Nor was he active enough in regards to Charlie and the pick in May and June.
"Power forward ... again, that's something we'll probably have to address." - Larry Costello, Don Nelson, George Karl, Scott Skiles.
http://community.sportsbubbler.com/blog ... fault.aspx
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#62 » by europa » Tue Jan 6, 2009 3:03 pm

You can't be active if nobody values what you have to sell. That's the problem Hammond had with regard to Villanueva, Mo and the pick. None of them were valued very highly and therefore Hammond couldn't make the deals he wanted. I talked about this in summer. I don't think Hammond can be criticized if what he has to work with isn't very valuable. That's not on him. That's on the previous regime for doing such a poor job of putting a team together.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
power4wardjinx
Pro Prospect
Posts: 955
And1: 0
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Contact:

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#63 » by power4wardjinx » Tue Jan 6, 2009 8:00 pm

I think that "nobody valuing" Charlie and Mo and the pick is a misconception/misperception that was spread on this board that was not necessarily true. From the start when Hammond opened up and talked to Woelfel, he said the guy other teams asked about more than any other was Charlie V. Yet nothing happened. I question how high the priority of moving him was. The accepted beliefs are open to challenge still. They were challenged then - that was a long thread.

Mo was one of the best shooters in the league last season and is regarded as one of the best off-the-dribble jumpshooters in the game. That wasn't lost on anybody outside of Milwaukee. His contract being what it was certainly reduced Hammond's leverage in prospective deals but an active GM would have had more options than Cleveland. I'm sure there were, though i'm not complaining in the least about Ridnour.

A #8 pick? You can always trade a pick.
"Power forward ... again, that's something we'll probably have to address." - Larry Costello, Don Nelson, George Karl, Scott Skiles.
http://community.sportsbubbler.com/blog ... fault.aspx
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#64 » by europa » Tue Jan 6, 2009 8:06 pm

I know that moving Villanueva and Mo were of the highest priority and Hammond tried diligently to trade them in the summer. GAD and others can vouch for this as well. I know less about the 8th pick to be honest but I have heard Hammond was in favor of trading it and tried to trade it but didn't get anything of value (in his estimation) offered in return.

I think this board has always over-rated Mo and Villanueva and I think we saw the signs of that this past summer when both proved difficult to trade. I know of one concrete offer for Villanueva, for example, and I wouldn't have made the trade either since it wasn't all that good. I don't believe either of them carried much value around the league. It's not difficult to find someone like Mo in my opinion and Villanueva's issues aren't a big secret in league circles by any means.

If people want to believe Hammond had great talent to trade or wasn't being aggressive enough, that's their right. I disagree and started a thread about that very subject last summer when neither Villanueva nor Mo were fetching much interest. Based on the information I've been given and based on what I saw from this team the past two seasons I'm not surprised nothing was done with Villanueva and the best the Bucks could get for Mo was Ridnour.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
power4wardjinx
Pro Prospect
Posts: 955
And1: 0
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Contact:

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#65 » by power4wardjinx » Tue Jan 6, 2009 9:33 pm

Ridnour's turning out quite well and finally having life after Ray (kinda like the Bucks). Anyway, I remember that thread, and I remember the information was being challenged, agendas were accused, etc., "sources" were being challenged. More solid sourcing would help the cause of having some info that gets put out here accepted as fact.
"Power forward ... again, that's something we'll probably have to address." - Larry Costello, Don Nelson, George Karl, Scott Skiles.
http://community.sportsbubbler.com/blog ... fault.aspx
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#66 » by europa » Tue Jan 6, 2009 9:38 pm

It's not my job to be a beat writer covering the Bucks. When I come upon information that I can post here I do so. If people don't agree or like it, that's up to them. But the information I've posted has been valid and the Mo situation was 100% on the mark.

As far as "agendas," I've always found it amusing that I'm accused of having an agenda (beyond the obvious one of wanting the Bucks to do well which curiously is always ignored). How can someone with no power whatsoever with the Bucks have an agenda? I'm just a poster on a message board. If I don't like this player or that player or this move or that move, who the hell cares? Claiming I have an agenda is nothing short of idiotic since I have no power whatsoever to make any of the things I want to see happen come to fruition.

What I have are opinions. Just like everyone else in this forum. No difference. Never has been and never will be.
Nothing will not break me.
Big Mokeski
Sophomore
Posts: 117
And1: 0
Joined: Mar 17, 2004

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#67 » by Big Mokeski » Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:17 pm

power4wardjinx wrote:It's possible moving Charlie is not a priority. However, if the Houston rumors were true and I believe they were, it is a priority, and Hammond was in that instance being active -- he brought the Lakers into it and put it together. This is a good sign -- but it's also something he had NOT been doing all fall-plus -- three or four months. Nor was he active enough in regards to Charlie and the pick in May and June.


So, I confess to having absolutely zero sources, and even to living in Florida (which this time of year is a big plus :D), so the only things I have to go on are transactions that occur, newspaper reports, on-line rumors, and League Pass. Based on the information to which I have access, it's hard for me to come to any conclusion regarding Hammond's relative activity/ agressiveness in comparison to the median GM. I'm not sure if you have inside sources, but unless you're in the chain of command or extremely close to someone within it, it's hard for me to believe that one can say with authority that Hammond spends the day at his office playing Minesweeper and waiting for the phone to ring.

What we can evaluate, though, are the deals that actually get made. And here, I agree with you at present about the JA pick (though I agree with others that the draft didn't look either strong at the top or deep), but I suppose I view his trades, his second round pick, and the coach he hired to be improvements, as the team's current record and play show.

That said, and I know others have frequently made this point before on this board, what I'm concerned about is the potential lack of direction here. Are we rebuilding or in win-now mode? If the latter, will we threaten to become like the Wizards this year -- a team whose contracts will likely relegate them to second-class status for the next 5 years, maxing out, if they're lucky, in a second-round sweep at the hands of elite teams, but just as easily landing them with the #5-8 lottery pick?

The NBA talent distribution system rewards teams that are lucky, well-located, and are good talent-evaluators. But if you don't get lucky (hello, Cleveland) and you're in the upper Midwest, then having a clear direction, sticking to it, and evaluating talent well (which includes structuring contracts well) is the key to success. That was the Pistons under the Dumars/ Hammond regime. I agree with you that the jury's still out on Hammond, but lord knows he was only hired at the end of last season. Maybe the RJ trade was too great an opportunity to get rid of one of the millstone contracts; worse, maybe Kohl has put some pressure on Hammond to field a playoff team immediately.

So like you I'm not yet entirely sold on Hammond. But from what I can see, it's not from a lack of aggression or activity, but possibly from a lack of direction. As to activity, he made two major trades over the summer. Do you want a fire sale? I'm not sure the good people of Milwaukee, who aren't even showing up to see a good team that's in line to make the playoffs, would have stood for that. And maybe the plan is to hold onto RJ for this year and into next and then turn around and trade him again.
User avatar
trwi7
RealGM
Posts: 110,876
And1: 26,396
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: Aussie bias
         

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#68 » by trwi7 » Wed Jan 7, 2009 12:38 am

europa wrote:It's not my job to be a beat writer covering the Bucks.


Well, now we know europa is either Charles Gardner or Tom Enlund.
stellation wrote:What's the difference between Gery Woelful and this glass of mineral water? The mineral water actually has a source."


I Hate Manure wrote:We look to be awful next season without Beasley.
User avatar
power4wardjinx
Pro Prospect
Posts: 955
And1: 0
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Contact:

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#69 » by power4wardjinx » Wed Jan 7, 2009 12:55 am

europa wrote:It's not my job to be a beat writer covering the Bucks. When I come upon information that I can post here I do so. If people don't agree or like it, that's up to them. But the information I've posted has been valid and the Mo situation was 100% on the mark.

Who said ANYTHING about the Mo situation? The presentation of source material isn't done in such a way that anyone should take it as anything but opinion ... which is exactly what I said. It's wide open to question. Yet you say it should be accepted as fact. You want it both ways.
"Power forward ... again, that's something we'll probably have to address." - Larry Costello, Don Nelson, George Karl, Scott Skiles.
http://community.sportsbubbler.com/blog ... fault.aspx
xTitan
RealGM
Posts: 17,133
And1: 2,283
Joined: Mar 03, 2006
     

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#70 » by xTitan » Wed Jan 7, 2009 1:20 am

power4wardjinx wrote:I think that "nobody valuing" Charlie and Mo and the pick is a misconception/misperception that was spread on this board that was not necessarily true. From the start when Hammond opened up and talked to Woelfel, he said the guy other teams asked about more than any other was Charlie V. Yet nothing happened. I question how high the priority of moving him was. The accepted beliefs are open to challenge still. They were challenged then - that was a long thread.

Mo was one of the best shooters in the league last season and is regarded as one of the best off-the-dribble jumpshooters in the game. That wasn't lost on anybody outside of Milwaukee. His contract being what it was certainly reduced Hammond's leverage in prospective deals but an active GM would have had more options than Cleveland. I'm sure there were, though i'm not complaining in the least about Ridnour.

A #8 pick? You can always trade a pick.


I have never heard Woelfel say that this past off season Charlie V. was being highly sought after, if that were the case he would be gone. The so-called misconceptions of which you speak, is it pure specualtion on your part? Do you think the Bucks could have cut a better deal for the extremely valued Mo Williams, at least from your perspective...
EastSideBucksFan
RealGM
Posts: 18,712
And1: 4,490
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Contact:
 

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#71 » by EastSideBucksFan » Wed Jan 7, 2009 1:26 am

Yeah, I think you mean Sessions was the player most teams call about.

That did come out of Hammonds mouth on record
User avatar
bigkurty
General Manager
Posts: 8,212
And1: 1,511
Joined: Apr 23, 2005
Location: Gilbert, AZ
     

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#72 » by bigkurty » Wed Jan 7, 2009 1:57 am

trwi7 wrote:
europa wrote:It's not my job to be a beat writer covering the Bucks.


Well, now we know europa is either Charles Gardner or Tom Enlund.

Haha, just what I was thinking.
Who is Europa anyway?

He is not actually related to CBQ although I have a feeling they have similar connections.
I believe he is white but am not sure.
He has an "inside source"
He is one of the few "insiders" who I actually trust their "insiderness"
He is a guy for sure
He is supposedly not a beat writer but that could be misinformation
...um anyone have anything else to add.
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#73 » by europa » Wed Jan 7, 2009 2:40 am

power4wardjinx wrote:
europa wrote:It's not my job to be a beat writer covering the Bucks. When I come upon information that I can post here I do so. If people don't agree or like it, that's up to them. But the information I've posted has been valid and the Mo situation was 100% on the mark.

Who said ANYTHING about the Mo situation?


You did when you referenced the thread I posted last summer which was about Mo and Villanueva when you talked about agendas and so forth.

The presentation of source material isn't done in such a way that anyone should take it as anything but opinion ... which is exactly what I said. It's wide open to question. Yet you say it should be accepted as fact. You want it both ways.


No, I present information that I know to be true. If others choose not to believe it, that's up to them. But I wouldn't post any information here unless I was confident it was accurate. There is a significant difference between my opinions and something I post that has been provided to me by sources. If you or others can't understand the difference, there's nothing I can do about that. The distinction is and always will be quite clear. Beyond that, I'm not sure what more I can be expected to do.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#74 » by europa » Wed Jan 7, 2009 2:41 am

trwi7 wrote:
europa wrote:It's not my job to be a beat writer covering the Bucks.


Well, now we know europa is either Charles Gardner or Tom Enlund.


:lol:
Nothing will not break me.
El Duderino
RealGM
Posts: 20,546
And1: 1,325
Joined: May 30, 2005
Location: Working on pad level

Re: Could we go after Lee? 

Post#75 » by El Duderino » Wed Jan 7, 2009 3:07 am

Mo had a contract that i think pays him fairly in yearly salary, but had five years left on it when Hammond was searching out trade offers in the offseason. If Mo had lesser years on his contract, Hammond very well could have had more teams interested, but it sure seems like most NBA teams are leery of taking on really long term deals in trades unless it's an elite player. Five years is a long time and so many different things can happen to a team over five years that i could easily see why Mo's contract would cause hesitation to some teams that may have liked him. He might be a good fit now and you think he could help your team, but say two years later that may not be the case and you still would own three years on his deal. In Cleveland, Mo was no only a great fit, the Cavs desperately needed to keep LeBron happy and win now so he'll want to stay, worrying about their cap 3-4-5 years from now was way down their list of concerns. That was why when we signed Mo, i didn't really have problems with his yearly salary, but didn't like how many years we gave him. Really long contracts generally aren't very appealing to other teams.

As for CV, i'm fine with Hammond not trading him. His scoring has been needed at times and if we weren't going to get say a starting PF in return, i'd just as soon prefer keeping him. His erratic play can be frustrating, but we've becoming a good defensive team that suffers more from scoring droughts. Villanueva's ability to drop 15-25 points at times from off the bench has value to us.

Return to Milwaukee Bucks