Should Bogut Take Fewer Charges?

[paul]

I got to this thread late but wanted to add my two cents - it's a dramatically lower standard of ball but I've been known for drawing multiple charges a game over the course of my playing career so my interest was piqued.

From my perspective I can say two things with absolute certainty - the first is that taking a charge for a good defensive player is a natural instinct, it is virtually impossible to stop doing it and if Andrew tries to he will most likely find himself horribly out of position on defense and will greatly reduce his defensive effectiveness. Drawing the charge, particularly as an interior defender, is based around one's ability to obtain perfect defensive positioning by reading the flow of play faster than the offensive player, if Bogut adjusts this to avoid contact it will definitely negatively impact our team defense.
The second is that it is extremely unlikely that drawing charges has had any involvement in Bogut's current back injury. Player's who draw a lot of charges are very good at hitting the floor dramatically with very minimal impact on their own bodies - if anything the offensive player is more likely to be injured than the defender as the defender knows the contact is coming, the offensive player doesn't. Watch Bogut carefully as he gets up off the floor and you'll see an extremely satisfied player who's very rarely hurting and if he is it's usually through a pre-existing injury.

There's no doubt in my mind that drawing a charge is a MUCH more effective form of defense than blocking a shot - it creates a great deal of uncertainty in offense players when they attack the rim, it is a GUARANTEED turnover and it draws a foul on the opposing player, it's a travesty that this isn't a widely recognized statistic but I guess charges aren't as 'showtime' as blocks. There is also the hidden factor of the offensive player being slightly embarrassed by being hands down beaten by a defender - as a defender there is nothing more satisfying as the offensive player has all the advantages.
I would also argue that one is as or more likely to be injured trying to block shots than through taking a charge, particularly in regards to ankles and knees. Andrew's previous knee injury was as a result of a 'knock together' of knees with Dwight - not through falling to the floor. It's a purely unlucky incident which unfortunately just happens at times in a game, as it did with Bogut and Nene Vs Denver which wasn't through taking a charge.

[power4wardjinx]

Bogut had fought through back pain earlier this season, but back-to-back games in San Antonio and Houston last week took a toll.

"In the Houston game, he took a pretty significant blow, and I think that's what flared it up," Skiles said. "He's leading our team in taking charges, and several times he's taken some pretty good hits this year."
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/37241214.html

[Joana]

Charge >>> block. You gain possession and put a foul on the opponent.

Or you don't get the call and it's a foul on you.

Well, you can be called for a shooting foul because you're attempting a block. In fact, it happens all the time.

I know that because that's what big men are told by their coaches and what you see every day with a big man in the paint. It's why Dikembe Mutombo is still in the pro game, why you don't see Sam Dalembert taking any charges against the Bucks tonight. You see the evidence in every basketball game you watch or play, if that's what you do.

Take a look at the last five games Bogut has played against Dalembert. Playing against a shot blocker completely alters the way Bogut plays (unfortunatley, he's not playing tonight).

Right, you've got plenty of anecdotal evidence that shot-blocking is a valuable asset. But that's not the point here. Of course every coach wants his good shot-blockers to challenge shots. Of course blocking shots is, ceteris paribus, valuable. The question is if that intimidating factor exists (and if it does it should be easy to identify statistically) and if it's enough to make a block more valuable than a charge.

There's a more simple question: is there any high correlation between shot-blocking and good defense? Are the better defensive teams in the league good shot-blocking teams?

Btw, remember Bogut having some very good games against Dalembert. It was before the last five? What about when he plays other elite shot-blockers, the ones even better than Sammy - Camby, Howard, Milicic, O'Neal, Dampier, Haywood, etc - the same thing happens? Why are those 5 games so special?

[power4wardjinx]

Dalembert was 4th in the league in blocks last season, so there aren't too many better. Howard owned AB last season. Interestiing, Camby wasn't guarding Bogut last time, randolph was, to free up Camby to help and block shots. He had 10 against the Bucks in a blowout last year. Bogut's not so good against Kaman last year either, though that didn't have much to do with blocking shots.

Orlando Magic are 3rd in the league in defensive rating. Those Sixers teams with Radcliff and Mutombo - top two or three in the league. Portland's points in paint with Oden vs. without him in the games he missed this season - big difference. Chicago Bulls vs. Bucks at BC this yr- Bogut went after shots all game and the Bulls finally just stayed out of there and took different shots. It was the most complete defensive effort the Bucks played all year, according to Skiles.

There's plenty of evidence. And at the end of the day, Bogut's not playing because he took a hit against Houston (on a charge play, Skiles said). The issue isn't how much charges should be valued vs. blocks, it's whether HE should be taking so many. He's seven-feet tall. the only way he should be taking charges is if Dwight Howard or Duncan etc. decide to bull into him and he can draw the foul. If not, getting up in Duncan's face and challenging his shot works - TD shot 7-20 last time against Bogut and I'm sure AB altered or forced Duncan to change his release on a few of those.

[power4wardjinx]

To clarify, as Paul mentioned and I mentioned earlier r.e. the Howard play, what we're talking about here are the rotational plays where he's stepping up/over to help on a driving player, not the center-center post plays. On that play where he saved the Charlotte game taking a charge on J-Rich, who blew by Redd (why was Redd guarding him?), I'd rather see him get up and block the shot than take that impact. He initially woke up in Philly w/ the back pain, so it'd be interesting to go back and look at the game in Miami to see what sort of punishment he took there.

[Joana]

Blocks per 40 minutes, Dalembert was 8th last season. Have you calculated any correlation coefficient between blocks and defensive efficiency or not? Anecdotal evidence there's plenty for every taste: the Spurs have some great defenses in the recent past, the Bucks have a top-5 defence this season - how's their shot-blocking? And what teams lead the league in shot-blocks last season?

"Portland's points in paint with Oden vs. without him in the games he missed this season - big difference."

Really? How so? What are the numbers? I'm curious about this particular statement.

In my first post in this thread I promptly admitted that the injury could have been caused by a charge taken. That's not a reason to start playing soft and stop giving up his body. That's a very bad idea.

[power4wardjinx]

From my perspective I can say two things with absolute certainty - the first is that taking a charge for a good defensive player is a natural instinct, it is virtually impossible to stop doing it and if Andrew tries to he will most likely find himself horribly out of position on defense and will greatly reduce his defensive effectiveness.

Very true. a lot of guys just don't like to do it unless they're flopping and then they're no good at that. It was said earlier in the thread that taking charges was considered wuss, but it's the opposite. Coaches love guys who get in there and get tough and are man enough to take the charge. But I've never seen a coach tell a 6'10-11 guy to do anything but stand their ground and stay vertical. How did Bogut end up being so good at it?

[power4wardjinx]

Blocks per 40 minutes, Dalembert was 8th last season. Have you calculated any correlation coefficient between blocks and defensive efficiency or not? Anecdotal evidence there's plenty for every taste: the Spurs have some great defenses in the recent past, the Bucks have a top-5 defence this season - how's their shot-blocking? And what teams lead the league in shot-blocks last season?

"Portland's points in paint with Oden vs. without him in the games he missed this season - big difference."

Really? How so? What are the numbers? I'm curious about this particular statement.

In my first post in this thread I promptly admitted that the injury could have been caused by a charge taken. That's not a reason to start playing soft and stop giving up his body. That's a very bad idea.

On a penetrating guard? Use your height, Bogut. It's a tall man's game. I think for my next book , I'll calculate the correlation and have Bill Russell write the forward. In the meantime, I will dig up the portland article I read earlier this season when I was checking in on Oden to see how he was doing.

[power4wardjinx]

Gotta get with this Bucks game. Seems Portland's held quite a few teams under 90 pts since Oden got going this season, and their interior defense is creating a lot of buzz. However, can't find the thing I was looking for -- it was just Trailblazers talking about how they are giving up fewer points in the paint and other teams are staying outta there, just the obvious stuff. the postmodern absurdity of this is kinda funny. Prove that Greg Oden exists.

[power4wardjinx]

Of current top ten teams in defensive FG % (which the Bucks are not quite at 11th) 6 are in the top ten in blocks per game. Only Utah fails to make the upper half of the league in blocks from that top ten FG% list. The sky is blue, yet the clouds pass over it. Bill Russell existence is justified. My work here is done.

[rrravenred]

Of current top ten teams in defensive FG % (which the Bucks are not quite at 11th) 6 are in the top ten in blocks per game. Only Utah fails to make the upper half of the league in blocks from that top ten FG% list. The sky is blue, yet the clouds pass over it. Bill Russell existence is justified. My work here is done.

What about the other four? Were they high, low or middle-ranked? I don't recall any such correlation a couple of years ago, but certainly haven't kept the dataset to compare.

Also be interesting to see the FG% list in relation to charges taken, both as a team and in terms of top individuals, but I don't know where those stats are recorded. It would be an interesting list.

And yes, I think your work is done. We assign very different values to blocks vs charges, and i don't think that further discussion will alter that. A man convinced against his will / is of the same opinion still...

[Jez2983]

I've got no problem with him drawing charges. My back hurts today and I've never drawn a charge in my life - I think there's a good chance that the back troubles are an unavoidable reality that could just as easily be exacerbated by going for a block, dunking the ball, or humping your mom as by anything else.

Haven't read the rest of the thread, but this would be my argument (apart from the mum-rooting part - what the hell adamcz?!?)

Rebounding and jumping, even shooting is going to put a lot more direct pressure through the spine. Every time anyone jumps up and down, their discs have to absorb the pressure of their body weight, the reactionary ground forces and the effects of gravity. If you fall on your back (or even arse) the weight is distributed through a larger area, albeit a greater force due to the increased height of the fall.

That said, only time I see back injuries due to falls onto the back there will be a fracture or something like that, or they will have fallen off a horse or something like that. In Bogut's case, the diagnosis of 'back spasms' is likely more a description of the secondary affliction (spinal muscles tightening to protect the back) and the primary affliction is the real problem - likely discy or facet joint in nature. With the spasm I'd think he has a discy injury. Anyway, I digress.

In my professional opinion, if you were to pose the question "Should Bogut take Fewer Charges" I would counter with "Should Bogut Grab fewer rebounds" as the jumping/landing/potential for falling awkwardly would pose a higher risk of injury.

ETA: Agree with paul and TotalPackage then!

[Jez2983]

We do nothing and do not tell Bogut to stop flopping....on guards. The more a big guy like that falls the hard it will be on his back. And when you have a bad back ....YOU ARE DONE!

It is the one injury you cannot fix...EVER!

Mate, stick to subjects you actually know something about, which may in fact mean that you have to stop posting all together.

You are just flat-out wrong.

[power4wardjinx]

There's no subset for charges taken at NBA.com, which is where I went to get those stats. Funny, the #1 shotblocking team is GOLDEN STATE. I'm thinking pace has something to do with that, but also that Turiaf is a very good shotblocker, blocking 2 a game in only 17 mins per. Biedrens isn't half bad. Anthony Randolph blocks a lot of shots too for the nonminutes he plays.

[MajorDad]

it's a given very few posters value my oppinion. and the feeling is mutual. when i say something, very few people agree with me. perhaps you'll agree with somebody else on the value of a shot blocking center verses the mighty Bogut who loves to take charges instead.

This is what Coach Larry Brown had to say about Dalembert after his team played the 76ers this week.

C Samuel Dalembert, whose role continues to be much smaller than it was a year ago, is averaging 2.4 blocked shots in the last 10 games after accumulating only eight blocks in the previous 12. He had four blocks vs. the Bobcats, whose coach Larry Brown said Dalembert "impacted the game more than anyone on the court."

That's pretty clear to me. Dalembert who has had a really bad year stats wise, still drew Coach Brown's praise. and it wasn't for his ability in taking a charge. A shot blocker impacts the entire game ! Not just one possession or one shot.

i think a lot of you overvalue a foul or the change of possession a charge call creates. I think what Coach brown said bears repeating : Dalembert "impacted the game more than anyone on the court."

You can disagree with me all you want about taking a charge being more important than being a threat to block a shot. But when you disagree with Coach Brown, it just shows your ignorance as to how the NBA game is played.

let the waffling and backpeddling and excuses begin.

[LUKE23]

Makes zero sense. A charge automatically changes possession AND gives the opposition a foul. A block MAYBE changes possession and doesn't give the opposition a foul. Hmmmmmm, really a tough call which has more impact.

And I'm not saying I don't want Bogut to be a shotblocking threat, he was last year and that has dropped off this year. But it's not the end all of defense, a shot-block happy C will often get into foul trouble (see Gadzuric), or put himself out of position for help defense.

But a charge is no question better than a block. Use your brain:

Definite change of possession/opponent foul vs. Possible change of possession/no opponent foul. A monkey can answer this one.

The only thing that should deter charge taking over shotblocking is health concerns if they are valid, but as far as which has more impact, it's quite clear.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

But when you disagree with Coach Brown, it just shows your ignorance as to how the NBA game is played.

This reeks of the time I wasn't allowed to say that Redd is a poor defender. I agree that expert opinion shouldn't be ignored or disregarded, but on most subjects you can find two experts who disagree with each other, in which case you still have to form your own opinion. There are probably lots of coaches in the NBA and in other leagues who would prefer a charge to a block, all other things being equal.

[paul]

it's a given very few posters value my oppinion. and the feeling is mutual. when i say something, very few people agree with me. perhaps you'll agree with somebody else on the value of a shot blocking center verses the mighty Bogut who loves to take charges instead.

This is what Coach Larry Brown had to say about Dalembert after his team played the 76ers this week.

C Samuel Dalembert, whose role continues to be much smaller than it was a year ago, is averaging 2.4 blocked shots in the last 10 games after accumulating only eight blocks in the previous 12. He had four blocks vs. the Bobcats, whose coach Larry Brown said Dalembert "impacted the game more than anyone on the court."

That's pretty clear to me. Dalembert who has had a really bad year stats wise, still drew Coach Brown's praise. and it wasn't for his ability in taking a charge. A shot blocker impacts the entire game ! Not just one possession or one shot.

i think a lot of you overvalue a foul or the change of possession a charge call creates. I think what Coach brown said bears repeating : Dalembert "impacted the game more than anyone on the court."

You can disagree with me all you want about taking a charge being more important than being a threat to block a shot. But when you disagree with Coach Brown, it just shows your ignorance as to how the NBA game is played.

let the waffling and backpeddling and excuses begin.

Ummmm, did you consider that if Dalambert had drawn 4 charges in the game instead of getting 4 blocks Coach Brown might have said the exact same thing? In fact in that instance Dalambert would have therefore caused 4 offensive fouls on the opposition placing players into foul trouble, which not only leads to 4 turnovers but also gets the opposition into the penalty quicker resulting in more points and therefore increasing the likelihood of a Philly win.

Now that I've spat that out - in what bizzaro universe does Coach Brown saying that Dalambert impacted the game more than anyone else with his 4 blocks automatically mean that Coach Brown values a block more than a charge? Did a different player draw 4 charges in the game? Was coach Brown asked 'Did Sam's 4 blocks impact the game more than Joe Blow's 4 charges"? Because if he was then fine I get your argument - one guy drew charges the other blocked shots but coach Brown thought the blocker was more important. Otherwise you are informing us of another of Larry Brown's pearls of wisdom which have absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic that is being discussed here.

A little trick I've learned when trying to inject my opinion's into some other expert's words when they really don't belong there is to make sure that the expert's comments are at least applicable to the topic I'm discussing.....

[power4wardjinx]

Of current top ten teams in defensive FG % (which the Bucks are not quite at 11th) 6 are in the top ten in blocks per game. Only Utah fails to make the upper half of the league in blocks from that top ten FG% list. The sky is blue, yet the clouds pass over it. Bill Russell existence is justified. My work here is done.

What about the other four? Were they high, low or middle-ranked? I don't recall any such correlation a couple of years ago, but certainly haven't kept the dataset to compare.

Also be interesting to see the FG% list in relation to charges taken, both as a team and in terms of top individuals, but I don't know where those stats are recorded. It would be an interesting list.

And yes, I think your work is done. We assign very different values to blocks vs charges, and i don't think that further discussion will alter that. A man convinced against his will / is of the same opinion still...

Hey that rhymes. Just looking again at the team blocks & FG% rankings, and what emerges are 8 teams that are holding opponents to 44% or under and six of those are in top 10 shotblocking.

Then there is a group of 7 teams, the Bucks Bucks being one, that are within 1/1000 of each other at 45%. That's an interesting group. The Clippers, the #2 shotblocking team are there; Utah (16), Phoenix (17), Atlanta (18) are all there. Then you find three of the worst shotblocking teams in the NBA: New Orleans (26), Houston (28) and the Bucks (29).

The centers on those three teams couldn't be more different. Yao's 5th in the league in blocks but no other Rockets are doing it much; Chandler's forte is offensive rebounding, not shotblocking and he's missed some games w/ injury - not having a very good year; and Bogut's not doing it so much this season for any number of reasons, beginning with his ankles, foul trouble, his back, better defenders on his team like the Prince, etc. These centers are all challenging shots and protecting the paint one way or another, whether they're recording blocked shots or not. For now, Bogut's gotta do it in whichever way keeps him healthiest.

[rrravenred]

Certainly no argument with the last sentence.

Another way to look at it is that both making blocks (challenging shots) and taking charges are fundamental parts of defending the paint and that teams should be able to do both on a situational basis (slashers need to have their driving lanes clogged and their shots at the basket challenged, jumpshooting teams need someone to menace their release, back-to-the-basket scorers need to have their spin moves to the backet body-checked and their shot-selectoin challenge). I'm just glad we have a center who can do both.

Thanks for the analysis. It'd be even more interesting to break that down via hotzones to see whether particular shotblocks / charges adversely affect particular scoring areas.

Oh... and the quote was attributed to Sir Walter Raleigh.