Has Bogut lived up to his contract thus far?

[LUKE23]

I'm not going to say I know what he would've gotten this offseason, but I don't see how anyone can sit here and argue that Bogut has upped his value this year.

In the games Bogut has played, we were a top 4 rebounding team and between a top 5-7 defensive team. I would love to see where we rank in those categories from the moment he has been injured until now (and not our ranks for the season, but ranks since the moment he went out). My guess is a drastic decline in both.

Bogut is rebounding better, playing better positional and overall defense, and scoring more efficiently than last year. He's upped his value over last season.

[rilamann]

I'm not going to say I know what he would've gotten this offseason, but I don't see how anyone can sit here and argue that Bogut has upped his value this year.

We must be watching different games and teams then, you could easily argue he's been better this year than last. In the games Bogut has played, we were a top 4 rebounding team and between a top 5-7 defensive team. I would love to see where we rank in those categories from the moment he has been injured until now (and not our ranks for the season, but ranks since the moment he went out). My guess is a drastic decline in both.

Bogut is rebounding better, playing better positional and overall defense, and scoring more efficiently than last year. He's upped his value over last season.

Thats right,Bogut's overall numbers in the box score might have looked better at times last season but those who have realy watched the games when Bogut has played have seen Bogut have a bigger impact on the Bucks winning games and being competitive in games more than ever this season.

Bogut does so many things to help a team win games and if you just look at numbers your not going to get the whole story.

[Buck You]

Of course he has. He's the most important player on the Bucks.

[europa]

What's the Bucks' winning percentage in games Bogut has missed during his career? Is it still under .200?

If anything, he might be underpaid in terms of his importance to this team.

[Fight the Tank]

The sad thing is I don't think Bogut has truly been healthy this whole year. He had the ankle in the preseason and then he reinjured it. Now this back thing is wearing him out. He needs to find a way to change his offseason to stay healthy next year.

Also he needs to work on that jumper. With Redd being out for a prolonged time Bogut needs to shoot that elbow jumper.

With how important Bogut is to the team it seems like a pretty fair contract. Obviously the Bucks didn't get a steal by any means though.

[Stopshere2]

"Much less"? The people saying this really need to look at the center contracts around the league (they have already been posted several times on this forum). And people can't just say 12/10 while also ignorning his minutes played, FG%, and wins produced numbers. He's far more impactful than 12/10 to this roster, and that is evidenced by the teams play without him and the rankings in key categories without him.

But "much less"? Nope.

The economic climate of handing out contracts has changed drastically since most of those deals have been handed out so I don't consider most of them comparable.

Are you being wise in hindsight or did you have the current recession all figured out when the Bucks extended Bogut? He was paid market rate AT THE TIME THE DECISION WAS MADE so whatever the Bucks may have paid now that we all know about the recession is irrelevant.

I'm not going to say I know what he would've gotten this offseason, but I don't see how anyone can sit here and argue that Bogut has upped his value this year.

Foolish statement. The Bucks have locked away a key position with a top 10 center and don't have to worry about it for 5 years. They're bleeding from every other position and overpaying a bunch of guys but you're worried about the one solid guy! Geezus.

[LUKE23]

Bucks are 5-9 without Bogut this year, career the Bucks are 10-29 without him (.256).

Total, they are 106-149 with him (.416).

[GrandAdmiralDan]

but I think that it's a lock that we could have signed him for less this summer than last.

With the injury happening this year, possibly, without it and him continuing his 2008-09 play for the season, no chance.

Agreed.

And even with the injuries, thinking Bogut would have been interested in signing a deal that paid him $9 mil or $10 mil a year isn't realistic. Bogut's QO was just over $8.2 mil. He could have taken that, made himself untradable without his consent, and then been an UNRESTRICTED free agent during the 2010 bonanza. Any team setting themselves up to gun for LeBron, Wade, Bosh, etc. that missed on those guys would look at Bogut as one hell of a consolation prize. Then we likely get in a bidding war with those teams and/or just lose Bogut and gain nothing but the money we aren't paying him.

With Bogut's personality and circumstances, that would have been far too big of a risk. Extending him was the absolute right move for the base salaries we gave him, and still the right move even after Kohl foolishly got involved and added in all the incentives.

[midranger]

but I think that it's a lock that we could have signed him for less this summer than last.

With the injury happening this year, possibly, without it and him continuing his 2008-09 play for the season, no chance.

Agreed.

And even with the injuries, thinking Bogut would have been interested in signing a deal that paid him $9 mil or $10 mil a year isn't realistic. Bogut's QO was just over $8.2 mil. He could have taken that, made himself untradable without his consent, and then been an UNRESTRICTED free agent during the 2010 bonanza. Any team setting themselves up to gun for LeBron, Wade, Bosh, etc. that missed on those guys would look at Bogut as one hell of a consolation prize. Then we likely get in a bidding war with those teams and/or just lose Bogut and gain nothing but the money we aren't paying him.

With Bogut's personality and circumstances, that would have been far too big of a risk. Extending him was the absolute right move for the base salaries we gave him, and still the right move even after Kohl foolishly got involved and added in all the incentives.

I think given Bogut's injury history, he would have been VERY hesitant to play out a QO without long term security.

There are two questions.

"What is Bogut worth?", and "Could we have signed him for less?"

I'm uncertain about the first, but my guess on the second is yes.

[ballerblogger]

I think baller blogger is back here thinking he'll have his "told you so" moment. But in reality you just have to look at the rebound rate stats to find your answer. As of about three weeks ago, Bogut was 7th in the league in rebound rate among all active players. He's become an elite rebounder and that combined with his interior defense are what make our team semi-competitive most nights.

His impact is equivalent to that of a Battier situation where you look at the individual numbers and they aren't eye-popping. But then you look at the team numbers while he isn't on the court and it is amazing how much better this team is in all statistical metrics when he is in there. It is almost Duncan-lite in the impact.

I'd have preferred to sign him for $1-$2mm a year less, but at this point am glad we don't have that headache to worry about this summer in addition to all the other headaches at the moment.

Not at all.

Look, I made my thoughts known before the season. I think Milwaukee overpaid for Bogut.

But I was honestly interested in getting your guys' opinion. I've only watched him play a handful of times this season and I wasn't overly impressed. His stats don't jump off the page either.

The overwhelming sentiment in this thread is that he's lived up to expectations. I'll make it a point to look a little closer when he returns to the lineup.

[jerrod]

I think given Bogut's injury history, he would have been VERY hesitant to play out a QO without long term security.

There are two questions.

"What is Bogut worth?", and "Could we have signed him for less?"

I'm uncertain about the first, but my guess on the second is yes.

the amount he signed for doesn't really bother me, but the increased risk of an injury before that contract ever started did. hopefully this back thing isn't a lingering problem. i think bogut being hesitant to play without a qo is a good point, and might have given us a little discount. that being said though, i don't have a problem with the amount of the contract, just thought the timing could have been better

[lawrybeard]

Now he's an injury prone, plateaued 12/10 player on a tanking team for the 3rd straight year with 2010 on everyone's horizon (blame the Knicks).

First of all, to say someone has plateaued at 10 boards is a bit rough given its 4th in the league. Especially when you consider the Bucks were a top 5 rebounding team and we don't play at a high pace. I'm sure his rebounding would increase if he went to a craptastic team like the Knicks, Warriors or Pacers, or if he decided to focus less on boxing out and going for pure stats.

Secondly, I think Bogut could average considerably more than 12 ppg. The fact he doesn't is a testament to his unselfishness and the fact he has bought into the Skiles system (i.e. putting the team before himself). As Skiles said, if Bogut wants to get more shots, he should get more offensive boards - it's not really an offense designed for a 20ppg centre. Do I think he could average 20ppg? Probably not... High teens? Without a doubt. As a result there is little doubt his fg% would drop, but then it's 57.5% so it has to drop a fair way before it reaches average.

His injuries on the other hand are somewhat of a concern. He did play all but 4 games last year. He would have done the same the year before but was forced to sit on the sideline during tank mode (he publicly stated he wanted to play but was not allowed). This year he has no doubt been hobbled. Whether it's due to having no interior help, taking too many charges, too much off season play - it is the only part of his game that could be criticised.

Lastly, his contract kicks in next year and if he's constantly injured then he isn't going to live up to it - regardless of stats. This is the main area he needs to focus on and hopefully he will get it right.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

Agreed.

And even with the injuries, thinking Bogut would have been interested in signing a deal that paid him $9 mil or $10 mil a year isn't realistic. Bogut's QO was just over $8.2 mil. He could have taken that, made himself untradable without his consent, and then been an UNRESTRICTED free agent during the 2010 bonanza. Any team setting themselves up to gun for LeBron, Wade, Bosh, etc. that missed on those guys would look at Bogut as one hell of a consolation prize. Then we likely get in a bidding war with those teams and/or just lose Bogut and gain nothing but the money we aren't paying him.

With Bogut's personality and circumstances, that would have been far too big of a risk. Extending him was the absolute right move for the base salaries we gave him, and still the right move even after Kohl foolishly got involved and added in all the incentives.

I think given Bogut's injury history, he would have been VERY hesitant to play out a QO without long term security.

There are two questions.

"What is Bogut worth?", and "Could we have signed him for less?"

I'm uncertain about the first, but my guess on the second is yes.

I think Bogut would view long term security different than many players, which is why I mentioned his personality and circumstances (not only referring to the large QO and lure of the 2010 bonanza).

Bogut is a guy that doesn't have the kind of expenses many NBA players have. He has more of his rookie contract saved and invested than typical, not to mention that as the #1 pick in the 2005 draft at 120% of scale, that rookie scale contract was fairly lucrative already. $20.3 mil
Tack on his $8.2 mil QO and I believe Bogut would have viewed that as enough financial security to roll the dice and be a UFA in 2010 (maybe even in part to get away from Redd finally).

Like I mentioned with expenses, Bogut doesn't bleed money into a "posse" or invest in "friends" BS ideas like producing an album or buying a club, bankrolling a movie, etc.
This is a guy who wouldn't even give his longtime personal coach Markovic a bump in pay after the extension we did end up giving Bogut.

Bogut doesn't drop a ton of money at bars and clubs. The craziest he's reportedly gotten was to buy ONE ROUND for everyone in the bar at McGillicuddy's the night he was back in Milwaukee after signing his contract extension. Typically though he doesn't go out and spend much money.
He doesn't try to impress women by being a big spender. He'll buy himself a drink and sit at the bar, waiting for women to approach him. He'll buy her one or two drinks and then take her home.

But mostly he just keeps to himself, staying home watching DVDs, messing around on the computer, and playing with his dog. He does like to play Texas Hold 'Em, but he's never gotten too crazy with that and is actually a decent player for the stakes he usually plays. He also has spent a modest amount on some classic cars, but that is paltry compared to what most NBA players spend on cars. $28.2 mil (since 05-06) is plenty of security for that kind of lifestyle, really.

Bogut's just a unique guy, for better or worse.
That's why, combined with the other circumstances, I viewed him as a unique risk to be willing to take that QO. And so did the Bucks. Of course, Kohl panicked a little too much and interjected himself into negotiations to throw in those incentives, even though it seemed like Hammond had things under control with the 5 year $60 mil base offer.

[europa]

The beauty of the incentives, of course, is based on what we know them to be the Bucks will have had significant team success if Bogut reaches them. And anybody here who would piss and moan about Bogut getting an extra mill or two if the Bucks win a championship deserves to be shown the door in my humble opinion.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

Lastly, his contract kicks in next year and if he's constantly injured then he isn't going to live up to it - regardless of stats. This is the main area he needs to focus on and hopefully he will get it right.

That is a key there.
What kind of blame you affix to Bogut in that situation wouldn't even ultimately matter.

If Bogut is constantly injured, he unfortunately will not be able to live up to his contract extension, bottom line.

I must say the thread title question is foolishly worded.

Has Bogut lived up to his contract thus far?
He's still on his rookie scale contract, so without a doubt. It isn't even close, thus far. It is the future that will be an issue.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

The beauty of the incentives, of course, is based on what we know them to be the Bucks will have had significant team success if Bogut reaches them. And anybody here who would piss and moan about Bogut getting an extra mill or two if the Bucks win a championship deserves to be shown the door in my humble opinion.

I agree to some extent. Especially on the championship incentive

But part of the value in any contract is the potential for the player to outproduce their contract. Some of that potential is not there for Bogut, since if he "outproduces" his current salary, his salary is actually increased.

It is similar (but to a much lesser degree) with some of what bothered me (and you) about Mo Williams contract structure. The ETO and PO in years 5 and 6 made it impossible for Mo to really outproduce his current contract. If he ends up being close to worth what he is being paid, he will use his ETO to get a better contract after year 4, or if it takes him a year longer, he won't use his PO in order to get a better contract after year 6.

The only way he earns the current year 5 and 6 salaries in this contract is if he is NOT worth them.
It was very unnecessary to structure the contract that way for Mo, and it was also unnecessary, I have been assured, to have Kohl add in the incentives. Hammond had that deal done at 5 years $60 mil. Bauman was only taking a little time to see if Kohl would foolishly out bid the already winning bid. Obviously Bauman had a good scouting report on Kohl

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

The injuries alone makes him not living up to his contract. I know some of these things are beyond his control, but that's the way it is.

But if you were to just judge it from his play on the court, then I think yeah he's easily lived up to his contract. He's the 2nd or 3rd best (true) center in the Eastern Conference.

It is in his control.....STOP FLOPPING AND GET IN BETTER CORE SYSTEM SHAPE!

He has a weak basketball posture and weak lower back that you see when he slouches and drags himself up the court.

He is a soft player that when he jousts in the low post and other bigs bang his back he gets sore ...this is why you need a thug next to him.

That is why I begged the Bucks to get Zach Randolph, Boozer, Nene, even Maglorie again so they could take that pounding.

I've been saying this since we drafted him. He is not solidly built at his base. And he is a guy who needs to put on more weight. And add some strength. He needs to revolutionize his body and his workout program.

He needs to talk with Joel Pryzbilla and get on the boxing martial arts workout program Joel is on when he comes back to Milwaukee every offseason.

It is under his control. If he does not get this back issue taken care of we are toast...Again another sign we should have traded him when we had the chance, perhaps to move down in the lottery!

The minute we sign him he comes down with a wretched back...we are snake bitten for some reason.

And the same thing might happen to Sessions and Villanueva if we sign them...

I told you it is the MJ spell...

And another thing...saying he is the 3rd best center in the East is not saying jack crap!

[Mike X]

I
Bogut doesn't drop a ton of money at bars and clubs. The craziest he's reportedly gotten was to buy ONE ROUND for everyone in the bar at McGillicuddy's the night he was back in Milwaukee after signing his contract extension. Typically though he doesn't go out and spend much money.
He doesn't try to impress women by being a big spender. He'll buy himself a drink and sit at the bar, waiting for women to approach him. He'll buy her one or two drinks and then take her home......................
.

............................. Gee GAD I knew you were the man with all the inside information but that is some good stuff. So what happened next, did he hit a home-run.

[trwi7]

He'll buy himself a drink and sit at the bar, waiting for women to approach him. He'll buy her one or two drinks and then take her home.

It's times like this where I wish I had a sister. Then I could say she banged a famous person.

[paul]

No he's comfortably outproduced his rookie contract thus far. If we're asking if he's outproducing a contract he doesn't yet earn I'll have to get all Dhali and try to bend time, but he would be outproducing the $10m he's due to be paid next season, yes.

As many have said, the injuries are a major concern, but the flip side to that is that we haven't seen him healthy virtually all season and maybe the only times he has been he dropped 16 on Dwight in a half and then 20/14 on Duncan so who knows what he's capable of putting up next season if he does actually get healthy.