Who to keep? (Rubio vs. Dunn)

[Devilzsidewalk]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-2016-free-agency-minnesota-timberwolves-kris-dunn-ricky-rubio-trade-rockets-mavericks-sixers-bucks/1l8vi9t2tm2qe1lu3wp0fjggdn?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

The plan in Minnesota is to make draftee Kris Dunn the starting point guard. The question is, with Ricky Rubio on board, when that will happen.

The Timberwolves were active in seeking a deal for Rubio before the NBA Draft, but around the league, the price was considered too high when deals were discussed last week. Thanks to a very thin point guard class, that could quickly change.

“Check back around July 10, July 15,” one NBA general manager told Sporting News. “Once teams are left holding the bag, he’s going to be a pretty big target. They will get better offers, better ones than they have been.”

There is only one reliable starting point guard on the free-agent market, Grizzlies guard Mike Conley. Many teams are still uncertain what to make of Rajon Rondo’s resurgence in Sacramento, where he averaged 11.9 points and a league-best 11.7 assists but could not help the team improve much. The rest of the list consists of role players, combo guards and aging or injury-prone veterans — think Jeremy Lin, Jordan Clarkson and Deron Williams.

While new Timberwolves president and coach Tom Thibodeau had offers for Rubio before the start of free agency, he staved them off, expecting his value to spike after the first wave of free agents signs on elsewhere. Under the franchise’s previous regime, led by Flip Saunders, Minnesota did much the same thing, hanging on to star forward Kevin Love and driving up his value as the summer of 2014 wore on, eventually getting Andrew Wiggins and Thaddues Young for Love in an August deal.

Minnesota also has not ruled out the possibility to hanging on to Rubio and letting him help ease in Dunn before trading him at some point next season. The Celtics did that with Rondo after drafting Marcus Smart in 2014, trading Rondo in December that year.

Depending on how free agency shakes out, league sources said there would be no shortage of teams interested in Rubio, including Philadelphia, Houston and the Bucks, who were unwilling to part with Khris Middleton to land Rubio four months ago. The Mavericks, with an interest in signing Mike Conley as a priority, would be a potential partner and a team for which Rubio might like to play.

Considering the dearth of available point guards, the Wolves have a valuable asset on their hands and intend to exercise patience.

“He won’t be on that team for long,” the GM said. “But the longer they hold onto him, the more teams they’ll have who would be willing to give up something for him.”

The Mavericks w/ their zero trade assets.

[kmgarnett21]

The Mavericks w/ their zero trade assets.

Yeah. SMH. I asked a Wolves blogger/writer (can't remember which one) what in the heck could Dallas offer MIN, and they said "a first round pick??"

Like really? Rubio's value and impact is a mid- to late-first round pick?????

[Sugarless]

I would be really disappointed in Thibs if he got rid of Ricky before he even gets to coach him. It just doesn't make sense for a guy like Thibodeau to trade a player like Rubio. He wants effort, he wants defense, he wants more rebounds, he wants smart players, he wants to win... and he's going to trade one of the guys with the highest BBIQ in the league, a guy that fights like crazy in every possession, a proven winner who's a great defender and excellent rebounder at his position?

I really hope it doesn't happen. I hope the summer passes without a Ricky Rubio trade and when the dust settles he's here to open the season as the Timberwolves starting PG.

[urinesane]

It's all about value. I guarantee Rubio wasn't thrilled about us drafting another PG with the #5 pick, especially after makin comments that this could be his last year here unless we improve. So, his leaving the team eventually, unless Dunn was a complete flop, was probably destined to happen. And we shouldn't be surprised, Woj said we were shopping him prior to the draft.

The key is getting solid value, I'm going to have to trust Thibs, but if we end up with Taj Gibson and Dunleavy, I will not be pleased.

Please stop with the Ricky wanting to leave the team nonsense. We went over that terrible translation ad nauseam in the Rubio thread already. Ricky wants to win and with Thibs they will, so he should be very happy if they make the playoffs this year (whether or not Dunn is a flop).

Also, good luck getting Conley for anywhere near the money Rubio is making on his current contract, especially after we just drafted a PG in the top 5.

That last part was for the Rome guy.

[guest81]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-2016-free-agency-minnesota-timberwolves-kris-dunn-ricky-rubio-trade-rockets-mavericks-sixers-bucks/1l8vi9t2tm2qe1lu3wp0fjggdn?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

The plan in Minnesota is to make draftee Kris Dunn the starting point guard. The question is, with Ricky Rubio on board, when that will happen.

The Timberwolves were active in seeking a deal for Rubio before the NBA Draft, but around the league, the price was considered too high when deals were discussed last week. Thanks to a very thin point guard class, that could quickly change.

“Check back around July 10, July 15,” one NBA general manager told Sporting News. “Once teams are left holding the bag, he’s going to be a pretty big target. They will get better offers, better ones than they have been.”

There is only one reliable starting point guard on the free-agent market, Grizzlies guard Mike Conley. Many teams are still uncertain what to make of Rajon Rondo’s resurgence in Sacramento, where he averaged 11.9 points and a league-best 11.7 assists but could not help the team improve much. The rest of the list consists of role players, combo guards and aging or injury-prone veterans — think Jeremy Lin, Jordan Clarkson and Deron Williams.

While new Timberwolves president and coach Tom Thibodeau had offers for Rubio before the start of free agency, he staved them off, expecting his value to spike after the first wave of free agents signs on elsewhere. Under the franchise’s previous regime, led by Flip Saunders, Minnesota did much the same thing, hanging on to star forward Kevin Love and driving up his value as the summer of 2014 wore on, eventually getting Andrew Wiggins and Thaddues Young for Love in an August deal.

Minnesota also has not ruled out the possibility to hanging on to Rubio and letting him help ease in Dunn before trading him at some point next season. The Celtics did that with Rondo after drafting Marcus Smart in 2014, trading Rondo in December that year.

Depending on how free agency shakes out, league sources said there would be no shortage of teams interested in Rubio, including Philadelphia, Houston and the Bucks, who were unwilling to part with Khris Middleton to land Rubio four months ago. The Mavericks, with an interest in signing Mike Conley as a priority, would be a potential partner and a team for which Rubio might like to play.

Considering the dearth of available point guards, the Wolves have a valuable asset on their hands and intend to exercise patience.

“He won’t be on that team for long,” the GM said. “But the longer they hold onto him, the more teams they’ll have who would be willing to give up something for him.”

The Mavericks w/ their zero trade assets.

I'd do a sign and trade for Dirk

[Dan's with the Wolves]

The problem is there is no way they get equal value back for Rubio in a trade...

Is that because he is as much overrated by people with this position as he is underrated by non-analytic FO?. The analytic FOs should be all over him. Why wouldn't they offer fair value. At some point the market value is his fair/equal value.

I would consider his value in terms of helping the team win, not what you can get back in a trade.

Fair enough. Other FOs should realize his value from that perspectives as well and offer similar but different value in trade. Win/Win trades are hard to come by. I can't see Thibs selling low on Rubio.

[Basti]

I would be really disappointed in Thibs if he got rid of Ricky before he even gets to coach him. It just doesn't make sense for a guy like Thibodeau to trade a player like Rubio. He wants effort, he wants defense, he wants more rebounds, he wants smart players, he wants to win... and he's going to trade one of the guys with the highest BBIQ in the league, a guy that fights like crazy in every possession, a proven winner who's a great defender and excellent rebounder at his position?

I really hope it doesn't happen. I hope the summer passes without a Ricky Rubio trade and when the dust settles he's here to open the season as the Timberwolves starting PG.

Most likely am I just stating this without any kind of proof but I'd bet that Thibs just wants to see what other teams would be willing to offer. And unless there's an offer he absolutely can't refuse to take (let's say a disgruntled all star player who'd actually fit - not that I could name any at the top of my head, though) he'll go and have a look at how Ricky will do in his system.

Finger's crossed that this is how Thibs has been approaching the situation.

[urinesane]

Hopefully Thibs is just trying to change the culture and make sure Rubio knows that he can and will be replaced if he doesn't perform to expectation (which I think he will under Thibs). Even with injury, Rubio's position on the team and in the main core has never really been in doubt, until now.

Ricky seems like the type to rise to the occasion and I think if Thibs doesn't actually want to trade him (unless he gets a good return), this could be just the spark Ricky needs to take his game to the next level. Maybe Thibs also heard the badly translated interview from Ricky and wants to see how badly he wants to stay with the Wolves. From the sound of it Rubio has never actually been close to being traded, his name was brought up, but they've never gotten close to a deal being done for him (from reports after the original Butler hype the Wolves and Bulls were way far apart on a deal). Thibs would know right away if Rubio heard the rumors and demanded a trade. If Ricky responds by accepting the challenge and proving how wrong Thibs would be to trade him through his play, Thibs has a PG on the edge of being a star in Rubio, and one with the physical tools to be a star in his own right (or at least a VERY good backup) as his 2nd PG.

It would be silly of Thibs to trade Rubio before he sees exactly the PG he is today and the improvements he has made (Thibs probably hasn't seen a healthy Rubio in person since the third game two seasons ago). His last look at Rubio in person was after Ricky tried to come back from the ankle injury and actually had a decent line of 15pts/10 assists/6 rebs (but was -11 in a 7 point loss).

Still that was a different player than the Ricky we saw last year imo, but Thibs wasn't in the league to see him (not that he hasn't watched film, I think Thibs will fall in love with Rubio's game if he actually coaches him).

I really hope Thibs is just showing Ricky that he isn't guaranteed anything with this franchise and his future with the team depends on the PG he can continue to grow into. If Thibs gives Ricky an opportunity to prove himself, I think he will thrive and Thibs will be happy to keep him as the starter for the forseeable future.

If Rubio plays better under Thibs his value to the team (and as a trade chip) goes up. If he gets injured or plays badly, they won't really lose that much value in a trade (or they can keep him as a fantastic back up during Dunn's rookie contract).

I mean, if they are both good you have 48 minutes of very competent play for $17.7 million per year the next two seasons. That's really good value and will be even better value as big contracts continue to be given out the next 3 seasons (the next 3 seasons Rubio is under contract).

With Dunn not coming off of his rookie contract until after his 4th season (if he works out), the next 3 years could be very good as far as the quality PG play on the team for the price.

No way Thibs gets even close to the same value in a FA PG signing + Dunn.

There's just no way they can trade Rubio and get back assets that push the needle as much as he does.

[bleeds_purple]

As a Kings fan I can't even begin to articulate how envious I am of the T-Wolves' current position. That being said, I'm glad to see you guys mostly voted to keep both.

Rubio's ultimate destiny in this league is being a top tier backup PG. He's got all the tools for it. He can come in and make smart decisions, run the offense, play defense, and most importantly keep the ship sailing in the right direction. The latter of which is the hallmark of a great backup. If all your talent develops and you become a real contender and Rubio is kept he will be a nice piece of a contending team as a 7-8th man type.

The most prudent course of action would be shopping him around and only dealing him for real assets. If there are no takers (likely given the current market saturation for his position) hold on to him and eventually phase him into being Dunn's backup if he pans out.

[urinesane]

As a Kings fan I can't even begin to articulate how envious I am of the T-Wolves' current position. That being said, I'm glad to see you guys mostly voted to keep both.

Rubio's ultimate destiny in this league is being a top tier backup PG. He's got all the tools for it. He can come in and make smart decisions, run the offense, play defense, and most importantly keep the ship sailing in the right direction. The latter of which is the hallmark of a great backup. If all your talent develops and you become a real contender and Rubio is kept he will be a nice piece of a contending team as a 7-8th man type.

The most prudent course of action would be shopping him around and only dealing him for real assets. If there are no takers (likely given the current market saturation for his position) hold on to him and eventually phase him into being Dunn's backup if he pans out.

If Dunn is good enough to relegate Rubio to a backup role, the Wolves would have one of the top PG duos in the league (if not the best). Rubio would be an upgrade at starting PG on a lot of teams.

[Klomp]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-2016-free-agency-minnesota-timberwolves-kris-dunn-ricky-rubio-trade-rockets-mavericks-sixers-bucks/1l8vi9t2tm2qe1lu3wp0fjggdn?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Spoiler:

The plan in Minnesota is to make draftee Kris Dunn the starting point guard. The question is, with Ricky Rubio on board, when that will happen.

The Timberwolves were active in seeking a deal for Rubio before the NBA Draft, but around the league, the price was considered too high when deals were discussed last week. Thanks to a very thin point guard class, that could quickly change.

“Check back around July 10, July 15,” one NBA general manager told Sporting News. “Once teams are left holding the bag, he’s going to be a pretty big target. They will get better offers, better ones than they have been.”

There is only one reliable starting point guard on the free-agent market, Grizzlies guard Mike Conley. Many teams are still uncertain what to make of Rajon Rondo’s resurgence in Sacramento, where he averaged 11.9 points and a league-best 11.7 assists but could not help the team improve much. The rest of the list consists of role players, combo guards and aging or injury-prone veterans — think Jeremy Lin, Jordan Clarkson and Deron Williams.

While new Timberwolves president and coach Tom Thibodeau had offers for Rubio before the start of free agency, he staved them off, expecting his value to spike after the first wave of free agents signs on elsewhere. Under the franchise’s previous regime, led by Flip Saunders, Minnesota did much the same thing, hanging on to star forward Kevin Love and driving up his value as the summer of 2014 wore on, eventually getting Andrew Wiggins and Thaddues Young for Love in an August deal.

Minnesota also has not ruled out the possibility to hanging on to Rubio and letting him help ease in Dunn before trading him at some point next season. The Celtics did that with Rondo after drafting Marcus Smart in 2014, trading Rondo in December that year.

Depending on how free agency shakes out, league sources said there would be no shortage of teams interested in Rubio, including Philadelphia, Houston and the Bucks, who were unwilling to part with Khris Middleton to land Rubio four months ago. The Mavericks, with an interest in signing Mike Conley as a priority, would be a potential partner and a team for which Rubio might like to play.

Considering the dearth of available point guards, the Wolves have a valuable asset on their hands and intend to exercise patience.

“He won’t be on that team for long,” the GM said. “But the longer they hold onto him, the more teams they’ll have who would be willing to give up something for him.”

This is the most important part:

The Timberwolves were active in seeking a deal for Rubio before the NBA Draft, but around the league, the price was considered too high when deals were discussed last week.

Meaning while he was being shopped, it wasn't at a discount price. They'll get a good deal, especially if you believe the already-reported offers from draft night.

[Avihs7]

I love Rubio, so I'm against trading him period. Even IF the Wolves manage to get fair value in return of a Rubio trade, it still wouldn't make sense to me b/c — unless you're getting an experienced, starting caliber PG in return — you're going into this season with a rookie starting at the 1. And what happens if Dunn busts or doesn't reach potential? You traded away a proven, impactful PG, and now the most important position on the floor is a glaring hole with guys like Wiggins, KAT & LaVine entering their primes.

If you want to plan ahead with Dunn as your PGOTF, that's fine, and hopefully he will be, but at least see what he can do in 20-30 NBA games before shipping out your only proven PG...

Exactly and after mozgov 16 million. Rubio contract (14 million) means guys like Conley are gonna be asking for 20-25 mill. Rubio contract is very good.

[Southpaw]

We gotta trust Thibs in his choice of PGs. He's helped Derrick become MvP, and all PGs that played for him played well. Kirk Hinrich, CJ Watson, Nate Robinson, DJ Augustin, Mike James and even John Lucas III!

[Devilzsidewalk]

I love Rubio, so I'm against trading him period. Even IF the Wolves manage to get fair value in return of a Rubio trade, it still wouldn't make sense to me b/c — unless you're getting an experienced, starting caliber PG in return — you're going into this season with a rookie starting at the 1. And what happens if Dunn busts or doesn't reach potential? You traded away a proven, impactful PG, and now the most important position on the floor is a glaring hole with guys like Wiggins, KAT & LaVine entering their primes.

If you want to plan ahead with Dunn as your PGOTF, that's fine, and hopefully he will be, but at least see what he can do in 20-30 NBA games before shipping out your only proven PG...

Exactly and after mozgov 16 million. Rubio contract (14 million) means guys like Conley are gonna be asking for 20-25 mill. Rubio contract is very good.

Maybe we should keep it for ourselves.

[Sugarless]

As a Kings fan I can't even begin to articulate how envious I am of the T-Wolves' current position. That being said, I'm glad to see you guys mostly voted to keep both.

Rubio's ultimate destiny in this league is being a top tier backup PG. He's got all the tools for it. He can come in and make smart decisions, run the offense, play defense, and most importantly keep the ship sailing in the right direction. The latter of which is the hallmark of a great backup. If all your talent develops and you become a real contender and Rubio is kept he will be a nice piece of a contending team as a 7-8th man type.

The most prudent course of action would be shopping him around and only dealing him for real assets. If there are no takers (likely given the current market saturation for his position) hold on to him and eventually phase him into being Dunn's backup if he pans out.

No reason why a top-10 PG should be coming off the bench. No team in the league can afford that luxury (certainly not the Timberwolves), and no player with that status would accept that role.

[guille_4]

I love Rubio, so I'm against trading him period. Even IF the Wolves manage to get fair value in return of a Rubio trade, it still wouldn't make sense to me b/c — unless you're getting an experienced, starting caliber PG in return — you're going into this season with a rookie starting at the 1. And what happens if Dunn busts or doesn't reach potential? You traded away a proven, impactful PG, and now the most important position on the floor is a glaring hole with guys like Wiggins, KAT & LaVine entering their primes.

If you want to plan ahead with Dunn as your PGOTF, that's fine, and hopefully he will be, but at least see what he can do in 20-30 NBA games before shipping out your only proven PG...

Exactly and after mozgov 16 million. Rubio contract (14 million) means guys like Conley are gonna be asking for 20-25 mill. Rubio contract is very good.

If Rubio's paid 14M, Conley getting 20M seems about right. He's one of the 5-6 PGs who are clearly better than Rubio.

That said, trading Rubio before the season starts makes absolutely no sense unless the return is better than his fair value.

Rubio's worth to the Twolves as a player and as a personality is higher than his worth in the rest of the teams except for big markets.

[Klomp]

No reason why a top-10 PG should be coming off the bench. No team in the league can afford that luxury (certainly not the Timberwolves), and no player with that status would accept that role.

I'm not convinced he's a top-10 PG.

[firyGM]

No reason why a top-10 PG should be coming off the bench. No team in the league can afford that luxury (certainly not the Timberwolves), and no player with that status would accept that role.

I'm not convinced he's a top-10 PG.

That's the problem.

When he leaves here, you miss him.

[Sugarless]

No reason why a top-10 PG should be coming off the bench. No team in the league can afford that luxury (certainly not the Timberwolves), and no player with that status would accept that role.

I'm not convinced he's a top-10 PG.

So what.

[RocketsHero]

No reason why a top-10 PG should be coming off the bench. No team in the league can afford that luxury (certainly not the Timberwolves), and no player with that status would accept that role.

I'm not convinced he's a top-10 PG.

What about top 5?