David Kahn wrote about the Clippers' valuation for Bloomberg

Post #21 » by **Worm Guts** » Fri May 23, 2014 6:12 pm

I meant it isn't on Love.
I think the main issue is that you could see this coming a mile away. Everybody called this as soon as he signed the contract. You can't miss the playoffs every year and expect players to want to be here.

Feilong · Post #22 » by **Feilong** » Fri May 23, 2014 6:48 pm

Well i have a different approach.
Kahn did Love a favor. He gave him max money with less years and with opt-out option.
Bottom line Love doesn't want to be in MIN.
If Kahn gave him max years then we would have an unhappy Love for the next three years.
Now he has 5 (five) options.
a) Re-sign
b) Extension
c) Opt-in
d) Play here one more year and re-evaluate situation
e) Ask for trade.

Well he chose that he doesn't want to play here anymore.
Flip tried everything in his power. The city loves him. He has sponsors. He has commercials.
What he doesn't have? Success. Well when you are the best player then you should do everything to have this success.
Did he? NO.
I am sorry but i can't forget the countless times he walked on transition D. I can't forget him playing D with his hands down. I can't forget him whining to referees and not returning on D. etc etc
Will we miss him. Absolutely.
Does he want to be here. No.
So trade him and move on. The faster the better.

champalift · Post #23 » by **champalift** » Fri May 23, 2014 6:50 pm

Worm Guts wrote:I meant it isn't on Love.
I think the main issue is that you could see this coming a mile away. Everybody called this as soon as he signed the contract. You can't miss the playoffs every year and expect players to want to be here.

And who is that on? David Kahn? Flip Saunders this year? Rick Adelman?
If Kevin Love is our franchise player (clearly he thinks he is due to being so upset he wasn't paid like a true franchise player), it is on him more than anyone else. He should only be upset with himself, not the Minnesota Timberwolves organization.
That is what bothers me most about this whole situation. At least KG consistently got us to the playoffs. Love has not done anything for us. At the beginning of the year, tons of people had us being like a 4-5-6 seed in the West. We had talent on the roster this year. Kevin Love just simply isn't a leader and isn't a winner. We need to move on.

Post #24 » by **Worm Guts** » Fri May 23, 2014 6:51 pm

It's on David Kahn. That should be obvious.

champalift · Post #25 » by **champalift** » Fri May 23, 2014 6:54 pm

Worm Guts wrote:It's on David Kahn. That should be obvious.

David Kahn, the GM we fired a year ago, is why we didn't make the playoffs this past season....?
Very logical.... :banghead:

Post #26 » by **Calinks** » Fri May 23, 2014 7:00 pm

One player cant get you into the playoffs. I get tired of people putting all that on one person. You still need a team and you need a coach that is getting the most out of that team. I bet you those old wolves teams simply played better than the current wolves teams for their era. They may have been stacked with role players but those players were in a system that maximized their potential and allowed the wolves to win a lot of games. We played defense, we had toughness. Yes those are traits that our star embodied and I don't doubt that KG has a great sway over a team than Love does but Love cant be blamed for us not making the post season.

When you have 30 30 games. Average ridiculous double double numbers, and still lose... that's on the team as much as any one person. The teams have been poorly constructed, the coaching staffs have not been able to get players to improve or play to their strengths consistently. Everyone is at fault.

Post #27 » by **Worm Guts** » Fri May 23, 2014 7:02 pm

champalift wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:It's on David Kahn. That should be obvious.

David Kahn, the GM we fired a year ago, is why we didn't make the playoffs this past season....?
Very logical....

You can't undo the damage Kahn did in a year. He blew a #2, #4 and #6 pick. That's 3 players that should be contributors who aren't on the team.
But even more, if it wasn't for Kahn we wouldn't be having this conversation about Love. He'd still have 3 years on his contract.

champalift · Post #28 » by **champalift** » Fri May 23, 2014 7:20 pm

Calinks wrote:One player cant get you into the playoffs. I get tired of people putting all that on one person. You still need a team and you need a coach that is getting the most out of that team. I bet you those old wolves teams simply played better than the current wolves teams for their era. They may have been stacked with role players but those players were in a system that maximized their potential and allowed the wolves to win a lot of games. We played defense, we had toughness. Yes those are traits that our star embodied and I don't doubt that KG has a great sway over a team than Love does but Love cant be blamed for us not making the post season.

When you have 30 30 games. Average ridiculous double double numbers, and still lose... that's on the team as much as any one person. The teams have been poorly constructed, the coaching staffs have not been able to get players to improve or play to their strengths consistently. Everyone is at fault.

There is definitely blame to be passed around, don't get me wrong.
You are saying we didn't have a team? Sure this last year we didn't have the greatest team in the world, but we had enough talent to make it as an 8 seed. Most people saw that in the preseason.
We didn't have a good coach? Sure, Adelman was getting old, but come on, he understands basketball enough to get a team to the playoffs.
Oh, we don't play defense you say, hmm, well that is an effort thing. As Feilong pointed out, the number of times seeing Love play horrible hands down defense or just walk back on defense has become quite ridiculous.

I don't put it all on him, but when someone is the top paid person in the organization and also believes they deserve to be treated like the franchise player, yeah, that is where I look to first in terms of blame.

Tirion · Post #29 » by **Tirion** » Wed May 28, 2014 7:13 am

It's an article about Irving, but you can apply the premise to situation with Love:

Whether or not Irving is worth the maximum salary is not really relevant here. The point is loyalty, and, more importantly, the perception of loyalty. It is not automatically disloyal to offer less than the maximum salary in an extension to a player you (rightly) do not feel is worth it, but to the player and his powerful agent, it is perceived as so. Anything less than undivided love is insufficient love, because the assumption – fuelled by perception – is that undivided love is available elsewhere. If you show anything less than undivided love, you do not show sufficient loyalty. And NBA players are driven by loyalty.

Offer them less than the maximum and they will point to all those beforehand in comparable situations who received it. Blake Griffin, for one, or fellow point guards Derrick Rose and John Wall (particularly Wall, who had a long way to go at the time he received his deal, moreso than Rose). It matters not if they are not worth the maximum – the assumption was always that they were going to get it, especially after picking him first overall, openly stating he is the future and the foundation, and when given that they are one of the few bright spots for the franchise in the last three moribund seasons. The fact that the last three years have been poor is partly Irving’s fault, of course, but that is not how this particular process works.

http://www.hoop365.com/nba/max-deal-the ... th-irving/

Ajohnson85 · Post #30 » by **Ajohnson85** » Wed May 28, 2014 6:39 pm

Calinks wrote:One player cant get you into the playoffs. I get tired of people putting all that on one person. You still need a team and you need a coach that is getting the most out of that team. I bet you those old wolves teams simply played better than the current wolves teams for their era. They may have been stacked with role players but those players were in a system that maximized their potential and allowed the wolves to win a lot of games. We played defense, we had toughness. Yes those are traits that our star embodied and I don't doubt that KG has a great sway over a team than Love does but Love cant be blamed for us not making the post season.

When you have 30 30 games. Average ridiculous double double numbers, and still lose... that's on the team as much as any one person. The teams have been poorly constructed, the coaching staffs have not been able to get players to improve or play to their strengths consistently. Everyone is at fault.

KG did....

mandurugo · Post #31 » by **mandurugo** » Wed May 28, 2014 7:10 pm

Calinks wrote:One player cant get you into the playoffs. I get tired of people putting all that on one person. You still need a team and you need a coach that is getting the most out of that team. I bet you those old wolves teams simply played better than the current wolves teams for their era. They may have been stacked with role players but those players were in a system that maximized their potential and allowed the wolves to win a lot of games. We played defense, we had toughness. Yes those are traits that our star embodied and I don't doubt that KG has a great sway over a team than Love does but Love cant be blamed for us not making the post season.

When you have 30 30 games. Average ridiculous double double numbers, and still lose... that's on the team as much as any one person. The teams have been poorly constructed, the coaching staffs have not been able to get players to improve or play to their strengths consistently. Everyone is at fault.

Well, in this context the wolves system under Adelman was designed around Kevin Love to maximize his potential. That didn't work out so well. So those two are at fault.

horaceworthy · Post #32 » by **horaceworthy** » Wed May 28, 2014 7:20 pm

Ajohnson85 wrote:
Calinks wrote:One player cant get you into the playoffs. I get tired of people putting all that on one person. You still need a team and you need a coach that is getting the most out of that team. I bet you those old wolves teams simply played better than the current wolves teams for their era. They may have been stacked with role players but those players were in a system that maximized their potential and allowed the wolves to win a lot of games. We played defense, we had toughness. Yes those are traits that our star embodied and I don't doubt that KG has a great sway over a team than Love does but Love cant be blamed for us not making the post season.

When you have 30 30 games. Average ridiculous double double numbers, and still lose... that's on the team as much as any one person. The teams have been poorly constructed, the coaching staffs have not been able to get players to improve or play to their strengths consistently. Everyone is at fault.

KG did....

Love not being as good as KG shouldn't be news, nor should it be a knock on Love.

The Timberwolves have been a dumpster fire during Love's tenure here, even if you want to put some of that at Love's feet, it's tough to blame him for wanting out.

Post #33 » by **Calinks** » Thu May 29, 2014 2:57 am

I'd argue that KG had better teams for his era than Love has too. Love has had some talent but his teams have never had the chemistry or defense many of KG's teams had.

Post #34 » by **Worm Guts** » Thu May 29, 2014 3:11 am

Calinks wrote:I'd argue that KG had better teams for his era than Love has too. Love has had some talent but his teams have never had the chemistry or defense many of KG's teams had.

KG's teams had defense because they had KG.

mondry · Post #35 » by **mondry** » Thu May 29, 2014 4:50 am

Worm Guts wrote:
Calinks wrote:I'd argue that KG had better teams for his era than Love has too. Love has had some talent but his teams have never had the chemistry or defense many of KG's teams had.

KG's teams had defense because they had KG.

hahaha, I suppose that makes sense! Love certainly doesn't play defense and I think that's the biggest difference between him and KG when it comes to taking a team to the playoffs. He doesn't "set the tone" like KG did and he doesn't "lead" like KG did.

It just seems really hard in this era to have your best player be such a one dimensional player. Lebron is the best because he's so good on both ends of the floor. Durant is kind of similar to Love but they have Ibaka to make up for him.

Carmelo Anthony is probably the most comparable to Love and he couldn't even make the playoffs in the East this year. I'm not so upset about losing Love anymore, I think he's a great #2, the guy you pair with Lebron, but unless his defensive game improves (which it could I suppose) we might have always been disappointed.

Post #36 » by **Calinks** » Thu May 29, 2014 5:19 am

KG certainly set the tone and I believe/- he is a better leader than Love. I also think he had to have team assembled around him to be able to help set that tone. I don;t think KG alone would turn the current wolves teams into great defensive teams although they probably would be better than they are. I still don't think we would have made the playoffs except for possibly this year.

One guy doesn't do it. A team does. One guy can help push that team to higher levels but ultimately, there are a dozen other players who have to help. I have been saying I see Love as a number 2 guy for a while though. I don't think he is a number 1, I think you need to put him alongside a number 1. Even if he had another number 2 though he would be good. We haven't had anything close.

King Malta · Post #37 » by **King Malta** » Thu May 29, 2014 6:26 am

I don't think KG v Love is even a discussion, KG was the more talented player and had a much better mentality. In Love we have a freakishly talented (but seriously flawed in some aspects) 4 who is capable of putting up some memorable numbers, in KG we had one of the most talented all-round 4's the game has ever seen with one of the most competitive mentalities to go with it. KG would have been a legit franchise player for any championship contending team during the era in which he played, Love is/would not be. There is no comparison here for me.

On our current predicament, blame is to be shared for sure, but Love needs to shoulder a lot more blame than he is allowing himself to do in my eyes. Sure, Kahn blew quite a few picks and the FO hasn't necessarily surrounded Love with the talent he requires, but I think Love is also extremely guilty of lacking leadership and a competitive mentality. That isn't to say he has neither of those attributes but I've personally failed to see him drag this team on his back the same way I've seen other superstars/franchise players do during the period I've watched this sport. Sometimes I think that Kahn's statements about K-Love not being a legit #1 or even a #2 are not that far off the mark. No doubt he's a great player, but has he done enough to have himself down as a competitive team's cornerstone?

Post #38 » by **Worm Guts** » Thu May 29, 2014 12:23 pm

Love isn't KG, but that doesn't mean he isn't a great player. He's clearly capable of being a #1 scorer on any team. He needs help though, and the Wolves have arguably been the worst run team in the league over the course of his career.

mandurugo · Post #39 » by **mandurugo** » Thu May 29, 2014 1:30 pm

Worm Guts wrote:Love isn't KG, but that doesn't mean he isn't a great player. He's clearly capable of being a #1 scorer on any team. He needs help though, and the Wolves have arguably been the worst run team in the league over the course of his career.

I don't think so. During Love's time here they have brought over two of the best Europeans playing the game in the NBA, got one of the best coaches in the league and corrected their salary cap to get flexibility in signings and trades. Lots of mistakes as well, but there are plenty of other teams struggling out there.

Post #40 » by **Worm Guts** » Thu May 29, 2014 1:40 pm

mandurugo wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:Love isn't KG, but that doesn't mean he isn't a great player. He's clearly capable of being a #1 scorer on any team. He needs help though, and the Wolves have arguably been the worst run team in the league over the course of his career.

I don't think so. During Love's time here they have brought over two of the best Europeans playing the game in the NBA, got one of the best coaches in the league and corrected their salary cap to get flexibility in signings and trades. Lots of mistakes as well, but there are plenty of other teams struggling out there.

It's shouldn't be the only criteria, but during Love's career every single team in the NBA has made the playoffs except the Wolves and the Kings.