What did we actually lose from last year?

[Feilong]

.... can someone actually address the points I made, in the opening argument?

What arguments?
Trade Lavine for a starting PG when we have Rubio?
Get a free agent SF? When we have Wiggins?
Maybe we need 1000 things but the only things we surely don't need is a starting PG and SF.
I could continue with Dieng not being a starting Center etc etc but you get my point.
I agree that i would like to see a new coach.

[horaceworthy]

Well, if it weren't for all the injuries, there would be a lot less talk about trading Pek. As far as Martin goes, he's sorta blocking Wiggins, who's best position now is SG, and Bazz, who IMO deserves a chance to start at SF. I'd be fine keeping KM if he's willing to come off the bench, but then the LaVine supporters think he should get that backup SG role.

I feel Thad needs to go the most. The Payne trade has overloaded us at that position, and I don't see any justification for trading a 1st round pick for a 24 yr old rookie PF and not feeding him a big dose of minutes. Plus Thad could fetch something decent potentially. Also, as Rocka said above, we will likely be adding another big through the draft.

Of the 3 PFs on the roster, Payne's future is probably the most secure. He's locked up up for the longest time at the most reasonable price, and he's the guy Flip went and got after the other two had been judged lacking. I want to see Payne get minutes because I'm curious, but Bennett may keep his spot ahead of Payne in line an attempt to let him play himself into some trade value. At least that's my wishful thinking reasoning/justification. If they want something for Bennett they may be better off jerking him around/benching him and hoping some other team talks themselves into him just needing a change of scenery.

[Klomp]

Of the 3 PFs on the roster, Payne's future is probably the most secure. He's locked up up for the longest time at the most reasonable price, and he's the guy Flip went and got after the other two had been judged lacking. I want to see Payne get minutes because I'm curious, but Bennett may keep his spot ahead of Payne in line an attempt to let him play himself into some trade value. At least that's my wishful thinking reasoning/justification. If they want something for Bennett they may be better off jerking him around/benching him and hoping some other team talks themselves into him just needing a change of scenery.

Worth noting, the talk before the trade this summer was that Saunders viewed Bennett as not much more than salary filler for the trade. Trading a 1st for Payne would seem to support that talk as well.

Now, Payne still has to prove his worth on the court, but I definitely think he'll pass Bennett on the depth chart.

[Note30]

.... can someone actually address the points I made, in the opening argument?

What arguments?
Trade Lavine for a starting PG when we have Rubio?
Get a free agent SF? When we have Wiggins?
Maybe we need 1000 things but the only things we surely don't need is a starting PG and SF.
I could continue with Dieng not being a starting Center etc etc but you get my point.
I agree that i would like to see a new coach.

Get a starting PG to play backup. Sure. That way we have depth at every position.
Get a free agent when KMart and Wiggins are default SG?
So Bazz can literally play pretty much only SF?
Yes, that makes perfect sense since we don't have a single wing that is a playmaker.
Trade for Favors so we can finally replace Love?
Get back into the playoff race with an elite starting 5 and starting players in a backup role?
Have one of the most deep teams in the league?

Yes. Yes. and Yes.

I can't be the only one who is sick of only seeing other teams in the playoffs come April. How bout we just fix the squad we had last year, considering our prior "All-Star" PF has turned out to be a hard 3rd option on a contender. We have a squad to get us into the playoffs and enough mix of young talent to get a few young vets to be competitive to contending for atleast the next five years.

[The J Rocka]

I would look to move Pek, especially if we're drafting a big. With Payne, AB, and Dieng already on board with the possibility of adding another front-court player, Pek should eventually be the odd man out. If they're serious about developing LaVine properly they should move Martin and give LaVine minutes at SG off the bench instead of forcing him to be a PG. I don't think it's necessary to have a 30 year old SG who wants to take 18-20 shots every game just to win a few extra games. Let Rubio, Wiggins, Shabazz, and our new draft pick get most of the touches.

I don't think we should just assume we know we're drafting a big though. Who knows where we'll fall in the lottery. Someone like Russell could easily the best player available.
I'd also say I don't consider AB as part of the future at this point. He's on the roster because we're stuck with his contract.

I didn't try to assume we're drafting a big. That's why I used the words "especially" and "possibility." Front-court player, that could be Stanley Johnson as well. No matter who we draft, my opinion still stands with Pek, Martin, and Thad.

AB is trash but I included him because he's still young and I'm sure the coaching staff are still hoping that he'll turn it around at some point and show some improvement. Even if that's not the case, they'll try to trade him or decline his option for '16-17. I'd fill AB's spot with Payne and look to add two new bigs over keeping Thad & Pek.

[Feilong]

.... can someone actually address the points I made, in the opening argument?

What arguments?
Trade Lavine for a starting PG when we have Rubio?
Get a free agent SF? When we have Wiggins?
Maybe we need 1000 things but the only things we surely don't need is a starting PG and SF.
I could continue with Dieng not being a starting Center etc etc but you get my point.
I agree that i would like to see a new coach.

Get a starting PG to play backup. Sure. That way we have depth at every position.
Get a free agent when KMart and Wiggins are default SG?
So Bazz can literally play pretty much only SF?
Yes, that makes perfect sense since we don't have a single wing that is a playmaker.
Trade for Favors so we can finally replace Love?
Get back into the playoff race with an elite starting 5 and starting players in a backup role?
Have one of the most deep teams in the league?

Yes. Yes. and Yes.

I can't be the only one who is sick of only seeing other teams in the playoffs come April. How bout we just fix the squad we had last year, considering our prior "All-Star" PF has turned out to be a hard 3rd option on a contender. We have a squad to get us into the playoffs and enough mix of young talent to get a few young vets to be competitive to contending for atleast the next five years.

The problem with your arguments is that they are not realistic.
Yes it would be great to get a starting PG to be our backup PG, but in which universe will G.Hill who was a championship contender last year will come to play 15 minutes as a backup to Rubio? What are the chances? I say zero. So why even writing something that has zero chances to happen?
And i would like S.Curry to be our backup PG. It will be great. Do you think there is a chance? Should i post this kind of nonsense?
You wrote a post that most of the things there have 0 chance to happen. No one bothered to answer. You then ask what is wrong with your arguments. I answered you.
I thought trades with 0 chance belong to the LAL board.
I am sorry but i prefer trades that have at least 1% to happen so then we can discuss the balance and how the trade will look long term. I shouldn't have answered in the first place. My bad.

[Grits n Gravy]

would people still want to trade Martin/Pek/Thad if you only got cap relief and or second round picks?

Yes.

and do what with the extra money?

Throw a max contract at Draymon Green, the Warriors are in bad shape cap wise and need to deal Lee or Iguodala or both to maintain their roster. This off season will be the last year teams can sign guy to current CBA max contracts which will probably look like 60-80% of a max contract under the new CBA. Warriors would probably match regardless but I'd certainly give it a go.

[minimus]

^^ With regard to Draymon Green. After watching game vs GSW I realized that Bogut is their defensive anchor, and splash brothers are offensive force. I'm afraid that without these factors, in our team, Green will be just role player with max contract.

[Note30]

What arguments?
Trade Lavine for a starting PG when we have Rubio?
Get a free agent SF? When we have Wiggins?
Maybe we need 1000 things but the only things we surely don't need is a starting PG and SF.
I could continue with Dieng not being a starting Center etc etc but you get my point.
I agree that i would like to see a new coach.

Get a starting PG to play backup. Sure. That way we have depth at every position.
Get a free agent when KMart and Wiggins are default SG?
So Bazz can literally play pretty much only SF?
Yes, that makes perfect sense since we don't have a single wing that is a playmaker.
Trade for Favors so we can finally replace Love?
Get back into the playoff race with an elite starting 5 and starting players in a backup role?
Have one of the most deep teams in the league?

Yes. Yes. and Yes.

I can't be the only one who is sick of only seeing other teams in the playoffs come April. How bout we just fix the squad we had last year, considering our prior "All-Star" PF has turned out to be a hard 3rd option on a contender. We have a squad to get us into the playoffs and enough mix of young talent to get a few young vets to be competitive to contending for atleast the next five years.

The problem with your arguments is that they are not realistic.
Yes it would be great to get a starting PG to be our backup PG, but in which universe will G.Hill who was a championship contender last year will come to play 15 minutes as a backup to Rubio? What are the chances? I say zero. So why even writing something that has zero chances to happen?
And i would like S.Curry to be our backup PG. It will be great. Do you think there is a chance? Should i post this kind of nonsense?
You wrote a post that most of the things there have 0 chance to happen. No one bothered to answer. You then ask what is wrong with your arguments. I answered you.
I thought trades with 0 chance belong to the LAL board.
I am sorry but i prefer trades that have at least 1% to happen so then we can discuss the balance and how the trade will look long term. I shouldn't have answered in the first place. My bad.

Darren Collison was my first choice. At 4 mill and on a team not much better than ours I could see him being moved. By trade, which asset we give up would be difficult to say.

[minimus]

Yes, Collison is good backup PG, and his contract is bargain. He would be good fit here, behind Rubio. He is quick enough to defend quick PG. He is improving shooter. But I agree with Feilong it doesn't look realistic, it is hard to imagine that SAC will trade their main PG without capable substitution. Also George Karl has experience with shoot first PG. Trade with TOR looks more realistic to me. Martin + 2nd round 2015 for Vasquez. They get proven scorer, and they can cover his defensive weaknesses behind team defense. We get big PG, who is able to run offense coming from the bench.

[guest81]

Yes.

and do what with the extra money?

Throw a max contract at Draymon Green, the Warriors are in bad shape cap wise and need to deal Lee or Iguodala or both to maintain their roster. This off season will be the last year teams can sign guy to current CBA max contracts which will probably look like 60-80% of a max contract under the new CBA. Warriors would probably match regardless but I'd certainly give it a go.

Ugh I like Draymond Green, but not at a max deal. If I'm giving a max deal to a player, I'd want to be pretty confident that he would be my best player, and Green isn't THAT good

[guest81]

Yes.

and do what with the extra money?

That is a real question ?
If they want, they can give the money to me. I mean.

Only the Timberwolves can't sign good players ? It's because is cold in Minnesota ?

Have the Wolves ever signed somebody better in free agency that was better then Martin ever?

[karch34]

Have the Wolves ever signed somebody better in free agency that was better then Martin ever?

Billups but about the time he was getting good we let him leave. Sealy you could argue as well. But those were additions a long time ago to a team that was in the playoffs, in recent history no.

[Grits n Gravy]

and do what with the extra money?

Throw a max contract at Draymon Green, the Warriors are in bad shape cap wise and need to deal Lee or Iguodala or both to maintain their roster. This off season will be the last year teams can sign guy to current CBA max contracts which will probably look like 60-80% of a max contract under the new CBA. Warriors would probably match regardless but I'd certainly give it a go.

Ugh I like Draymond Green, but not at a max deal. If I'm giving a max deal to a player, I'd want to be pretty confident that he would be my best player, and Green isn't THAT good

Max contracts are relative and Draymons max would be one coming off a rookie deal, spending one year under this CBA while spending the remaining 3 under the new CBA. A max deal now would probably be the equivilant of giving a guy a 10-11 million a year deal under this CBA. Relative to the new CBA I think it would be a more than fair deal. Golden State would surely watch but you have to offer big money to lure restricted free agents away, at worst we make GS pay more than they wanted to and put them in a difficult situation cap wise.

[AQuintus]

^^ With regard to Draymon Green. After watching game vs GSW I realized that Bogut is their defensive anchor, and splash brothers are offensive force. I'm afraid that without these factors, in our team, Green will be just role player with max contract.

The guy is a 6'7" PF averaging 11 points and 8 rebounds per game. He's also a 33% 3-point shooter jacking up 4 3-pointers per game. I respect he went from 2nd round pick to legitimate starter on a contender, but anyone who is dumb enough to give him a max contract will pretty much instantly regret it.

[Note30]

^^ With regard to Draymon Green. After watching game vs GSW I realized that Bogut is their defensive anchor, and splash brothers are offensive force. I'm afraid that without these factors, in our team, Green will be just role player with max contract.

The guy is a 6'7" PF averaging 11 points and 8 rebounds per game. He's also a 33% 3-point shooter jacking up 4 3-pointers per game. I respect he went from 2nd round pick to legitimate starter on a contender, but anyone who is dumb enough to give him a max contract will pretty much instantly regret it.

Thought he was a SF playing PF because the Warriors like small ball? Also, Kenneth Faried is putting up close to the same numbers and he's got a max I think.

Not saying Green should get a max btw. I think he's worth at bargain 7 mill. on a bad contract 10 mill

[Grits n Gravy]

^^ With regard to Draymon Green. After watching game vs GSW I realized that Bogut is their defensive anchor, and splash brothers are offensive force. I'm afraid that without these factors, in our team, Green will be just role player with max contract.

The guy is a 6'7" PF averaging 11 points and 8 rebounds per game. He's also a 33% 3-point shooter jacking up 4 3-pointers per game. I respect he went from 2nd round pick to legitimate starter on a contender, but anyone who is dumb enough to give him a max contract will pretty much instantly regret it.

Just my 2 cents - Do you have any reasons besides stats why he doesn't deserve it? I could tell you about a guy who averaged 9.5 and 8.6 and shot 33% from 3 and got himself a potentially 4 year 60 million contract - His name is Ricky Rubio. The game is bigger than stats as you know and Rubio is not really a stats guy but he is winning plays guy - so is Green. Like I said
A) If the current CBA and cap were to continue then no way would I be offering a max but in light of the new CBA where this kind of contract imo should be the equivalent of a 10-12 million deal I think it's fine.
B) You have to offer over value to even have a chance to get a restricted free agent, more so if you are Minnesota.
C) It's probably matched regardless which puts GS in a tough spot with their cap.

I love Green and his intangibles and wouldn't be scared to offer a max as he's the kind of guy who helps you win games. I'd love to start pushing for the playoffs next year and Green fits in with that. Going back to stats - Green's defensive advanced stats are elite and his on/off court ranks in the top 11 in the league.

[minimus]

No doubt, Green is good player, but if we compare his situation with Millsap's (they are pretty similar) the big difference is that Paul never had this hype after UTA, his contract is 9mil. Now Green will get max, because there is a market for him. Millsap and Green are playing next to good, mobile, defensive centers. Here they would play with Pek. Also Milsap is often asked to create for himself. He proved that he can do it, last year without Al, this year within team offense. I haven't seen many moments where Dray does it. Maybe I'm wrong, but we should find another Green or Milsap, via draft, in D-League or Europe.

[AQuintus]

Just my 2 cents - Do you have any reasons besides stats why he doesn't deserve it? I could tell you about a guy who averaged 9.5 and 8.6 and shot 33% from 3 and got himself a potentially 4 year 60 million contract - His name is Ricky Rubio.

Fair point, but by the nature of the position he plays, Rubio is allowed to effect the game a great deal outside of his individual stats. Point Guards do a lot of things that don't show up on the stat sheet - initiate plays, control pace, etc., and Rubio is a master at those things. Beyond that, Rubio was always at least the 2nd best player on our team (albeit a team that's only ever won 40 games at most), while Green is, what, the 4th or 5th best player on his team? Further, at 6'4", Rubio is big for his position, and at 6'7", Green is small for his. Tweener players are less valuable for good reason.

Maybe if you take him out of GS, with it's elite players taking defensive attention away from him, with its great defensive C covering him, and it's top notch coaching, he would still be good. Maybe he'd be even better, but I doubt it. It's more likely he'd be much worse, especially since 2 of his first 3 years were pretty bad. Even now, in the GREAT Golden State situation with Steve Kerr, a situation that turned Klay Thompson from average to a legitimate star, Green has only gone from bad to average (at least statistically).

I do think the argument that you made just above my last post was a good one, though, a max deal for a guy coming off of his rookie deal isn't the same as what most think of as a max ($20+ mil a year), and after the next CBA pushes the salary cap sky high, it could easily end up being a bargain.

[Klomp]

I do think the argument that you made just above my last post was a good one, though, a max deal for a guy coming off of his rookie deal isn't the same as what most think of as a max ($20+ mil a year), and after the next CBA pushes the salary cap sky high, it could easily end up being a bargain.

You know that all max contracts change based on the salary cap, right? (well, technically based on BRI, but whatever).

Green's max will start at roughly 16.575m, but if he had become a FA one year later it would start at $20m, based on proojections.