Woj/Shams/Jon: The Russell deal is done

[Ethomasp31]

Making the finals 8 straight years and not winning every one. What a loser..............
Yes Jordan won every finals he made. He also lost in the first round 3 consecutive years after sneaking in with a losing record. That's a wash or IMO favors LeBron. LeBron won in the first round 14 times out of 14 tries. Consistency.

It's not that he ever lost, it's the context. I don't blame him for losing in Cleveland.

I will never consider a player losing in the NBA finals a negative on his resume. No way in hell. If that is a negative how much worse is losing in the first round.

How about LeBron missing the playoffs all together his first two seasons in the league...and also in 2019, 2022, and probably 2023? That's at least 4 missed playoffs all together...and most likely 5 after this season. BTW, he also lost inn the first round in 2021.

[KGdaBom]

I totally agree, and this is a better way of putting it than I could muster.
And he would have lost a 3rd time if this Spurs could have grabbed just 1 more rebound in game 6.

Making the finals 8 straight years and not winning every one. What a loser..............
Yes Jordan won every finals he made. He also lost in the first round 3 consecutive years after sneaking in with a losing record. That's a wash or IMO favors LeBron. LeBron won in the first round 14 times out of 14 tries. Consistency.

I wasn't going to comment on this again but good grief...how is this even a debate?

A couple of corrections...LeBron missed the playoffs in his first two seasons...he also missed the playoffs in 2019, 2022 and most likely will miss them again this year. He also lost in the first round in 2021.

Yes, Jordan lost in the first round of the playoffs his first three seasons in the NBA...twice to the Boston Celtics (the 1986 team was considered one of the greatest teams of all time and the other Celtic team lost to the Lakers) and once to a loaded Milwaukee Bucks team. One of those years he broke his foot at the beginning of the season and came back around game 70. But that year in the playoffs he scored 49 and 63 points in games one and two against the '86 Celtics. By the way, in his other 11 seasons with the Bulls he missed a total of 7 games!! James has played 82 games once in his career. Jordan was never dethroned...but walked away twice. His 6 straight championships would have probably been 9 or 10 in a row had he not retired after his two three-peats. In his last 10 seasons with the Bulls, he led the NBA in scoring every season (LeBron led the NBA in scoring once in his career) and his last 9 seasons with the Bulls he was NBA all defensive first team.

James is awesome basketball player. One of the greatest of all time. He is in the discussion to be the second best player in NBA history with about 5-8 other players...but there is one GOAT and that is Michael Jordan.

Jordan isn't the GOAT. Just about everything favors James in this debate.

[KGdaBom]

It's not that he ever lost, it's the context. I don't blame him for losing in Cleveland.

I will never consider a player losing in the NBA finals a negative on his resume. No way in hell. If that is a negative how much worse is losing in the first round.

How about LeBron missing the playoffs all together his first two seasons in the league...and also in 2019, 2022, and probably 2023? That's at least 4 missed playoffs all together...and most likely 5 after this season. BTW, he also lost inn the first round in 2021.

Right so LeBron's first round record after finally losing one at the age of 36 is 14-1. Man what a loser. He lost once in the first round. How many times did Jordan lose in the first round?

Look we are both spinning it the best we can. You make me laugh with your steadfast devotion to Jordan. I think you're just an old fart who can't let go of the past. I'm an old fart who can.

[Baseline81]

I will never consider a player losing in the NBA finals a negative on his resume. No way in hell. If that is a negative how much worse is losing in the first round.

I'm sorry, but not being able to finish when you are in the championship game is a negative, whether you personally believe so or not. There are plenty "great player but unable to win it" lists. And the reason is simple, it tells whether a player is clutch or can come through when it matters most. For the majority of James' career, he has been dinged for that by far more "credible" journalists than me.

Not reaching a championship, in any team sport, simply means, as a whole, the franchise was not good enough or other factors were involved (injuries being the largest).

[KGdaBom]

I will never consider a player losing in the NBA finals a negative on his resume. No way in hell. If that is a negative how much worse is losing in the first round.

I'm sorry, but not being able to finish when you are in the championship game is a negative, whether you personally believe so or not. There are plenty "great player but unable to win it" lists. And the reason is simple, it tells whether a player is clutch or can come through when it matters most. For the majority of James' career, he has been dinged for that by far more "credible" journalists than me.

Not reaching a championship, in any team sport, simply means, as a whole, the franchise was not good enough or other factors were involved (injuries being the largest).

Losing in the first round isn't more clutch than losing in the finals.

[Ethomasp31]

I will never consider a player losing in the NBA finals a negative on his resume. No way in hell. If that is a negative how much worse is losing in the first round.

How about LeBron missing the playoffs all together his first two seasons in the league...and also in 2019, 2022, and probably 2023? That's at least 4 missed playoffs all together...and most likely 5 after this season. BTW, he also lost inn the first round in 2021.

Right so LeBron's first round record after finally losing one at the age of 36 is 14-1. Man what a loser. He lost once in the first round. How many times did Jordan lose in the first round?

LeBron didn't even make the playoffs his first two seasons...Jordan lost to all time great teams in the first round his first three seasons in NBA. In their second seasons, Jordan was playing the '86 Celtics and scoring 49 and 63 points in games one and two while James was sitting at home and watching the playoffs from his living room.

[Baseline81]

Losing in the first round isn't more clutch than losing in the finals.

Are you trying to state winning a first round series is a greater achievement than winning a championship?

And one thing I haven't seen you comment on yet is how James has either quit (Cavs vs. Celtics) or no-showed (Heat vs. Mavs).

[KGdaBom]

How about LeBron missing the playoffs all together his first two seasons in the league...and also in 2019, 2022, and probably 2023? That's at least 4 missed playoffs all together...and most likely 5 after this season. BTW, he also lost inn the first round in 2021.

Right so LeBron's first round record after finally losing one at the age of 36 is 14-1. Man what a loser. He lost once in the first round. How many times did Jordan lose in the first round?

LeBron didn't even make the playoffs his first two seasons...Jordan lost to all time great teams in the first round his first three seasons in NBA. In their second seasons, Jordan was playing the '86 Celtics and scoring 49 and 63 points in games one and two while James was sitting at home and watching the playoffs from his living room.

If Jordan played better he wouldn't have had to face all time great teams in the first round.

[KGdaBom]

Losing in the first round isn't more clutch than losing in the finals.

Are you trying to state winning a first round series is a greater achievement than winning a championship?

And one thing I haven't seen you comment on yet is how James has either quit (Cavs vs. Celtics) or no-showed (Heat vs. Mavs).

Nope I'm stating that losing in the finals is a greater achievement than losing in the first round. Have you zero reading comprehension?

[Baseline81]

Nope I'm stating that losing in the finals is a greater achievement than losing in the first round. Have you zero reading comprehension?

You were comparing James' first round record to that of Jordan's in an attempt to say he's better:

Right so LeBron's first round record after finally losing one at the age of 36 is 14-1. Man what a loser. He lost once in the first round. How many times did Jordan lose in the first round?

[Ethomasp31]

Losing in the first round isn't more clutch than losing in the finals.

Are you trying to state winning a first round series is a greater achievement than winning a championship?

And one thing I haven't seen you comment on yet is how James has either quit (Cavs vs. Celtics) or no-showed (Heat vs. Mavs).

He doesn't even has his data correct. The only thing LBJ and KAJ have above other great players is longevity... it's why they are the top two scorers of all time. Both are all time greats... but in my view not the GOAT. Maybe if LBJ plays until he's 50 or 60 he will get to the number of championships Jordan won...but he would have to be an excellent recruiter to do so...and take a pay cut.

[Ethomasp31]

Right so LeBron's first round record after finally losing one at the age of 36 is 14-1. Man what a loser. He lost once in the first round. How many times did Jordan lose in the first round?

LeBron didn't even make the playoffs his first two seasons...Jordan lost to all time great teams in the first round his first three seasons in NBA. In their second seasons, Jordan was playing the '86 Celtics and scoring 49 and 63 points in games one and two while James was sitting at home and watching the playoffs from his living room.

If Jordan played better he wouldn't have had to face all time great teams in the first round.

Well he broke his foot in 85-86 and missed 64 games that year. He still scored 49 and 63 points in the first two games at the Boston Garden in the playoffs that year.

[KGdaBom]

LeBron didn't even make the playoffs his first two seasons...Jordan lost to all time great teams in the first round his first three seasons in NBA. In their second seasons, Jordan was playing the '86 Celtics and scoring 49 and 63 points in games one and two while James was sitting at home and watching the playoffs from his living room.

If Jordan played better he wouldn't have had to face all time great teams in the first round.

Well he broke his foot in 85-86 and missed 64 games that year. He still scored 49 and 63 points in the first two games at the Boston Garden in the playoffs that year.

That was very impressive.

[KGdaBom]

I'm taking a big picture comparison of the two players. Jordan was very good. Arguably the 2nd best player ever.
Titles
Jordan 6
Lebron 4
Advantage Jordan
Finals
LeBron 8
Jordan 6
Advantage LeBron
Playoff totals
LeBron 174-92
Jordan 119-60
slightly better % Jordan, but so many more playoff wins for LeBron
Advantage LeBron
Career scoring average
Jordan 30.1
James 27.2
Advantage Jordan
Career scoring
LeBron 38,390
Jordan 32,292
Advantage LeBron
Assist average
LeBron 7.3
Jordan 5.3
Advantage LeBron
Rebound Average
LeBron 7.5
Jordan 6.2
Advantage LeBron.

I could go on and on, but hopefully you see a trend here.
Anybody being honest has to acknowledge that the numbers favor LeBron.

[KGdaBom]

Losing in the first round isn't more clutch than losing in the finals.

Are you trying to state winning a first round series is a greater achievement than winning a championship?

And one thing I haven't seen you comment on yet is how James has either quit (Cavs vs. Celtics) or no-showed (Heat vs. Mavs).

He doesn't even has his data correct. The only thing LBJ and KAJ have above other great players is longevity... it's why they are the top two scorers of all time. Both are all time greats... but in my view not the GOAT. Maybe if LBJ plays until he's 50 or 60 he will get to the number of championships Jordan won...but he would have to be an excellent recruiter to do so...and take a pay cut.

Longevity very much matters in the GOAT conversation, but average stats favor LeBron in just about everything except PPG.

[Ethomasp31]

Are you trying to state winning a first round series is a greater achievement than winning a championship?

And one thing I haven't seen you comment on yet is how James has either quit (Cavs vs. Celtics) or no-showed (Heat vs. Mavs).

He doesn't even has his data correct. The only thing LBJ and KAJ have above other great players is longevity... it's why they are the top two scorers of all time. Both are all time greats... but in my view not the GOAT. Maybe if LBJ plays until he's 50 or 60 he will get to the number of championships Jordan won...but he would have to be an excellent recruiter to do so...and take a pay cut.

Longevity very much matters in the GOAT conversation, but average stats favor LeBron in just about everything except PPG.

PPG...and the most important stat...WINNING!!

[KGdaBom]

He doesn't even has his data correct. The only thing LBJ and KAJ have above other great players is longevity... it's why they are the top two scorers of all time. Both are all time greats... but in my view not the GOAT. Maybe if LBJ plays until he's 50 or 60 he will get to the number of championships Jordan won...but he would have to be an excellent recruiter to do so...and take a pay cut.

Longevity very much matters in the GOAT conversation, but average stats favor LeBron in just about everything except PPG.

PPG...and the most important stat...WINNING!!

Then Russell is the goat. Other than that all you have in favor of MJ is PPG. LeBron dominates the statistical comparison.

[KGdaBom]

I'm taking a big picture comparison of the two players. Jordan was very good. Arguably the 2nd best player ever.
Titles
Jordan 6
Lebron 4
Advantage Jordan
Finals
LeBron 8
Jordan 6
Advantage LeBron
Playoff totals
LeBron 174-92
Jordan 119-60
slightly better % Jordan, but so many more playoff wins for LeBron
Advantage LeBron
Career scoring average
Jordan 30.1
James 27.2
Advantage Jordan
Career scoring
LeBron 38,390
Jordan 32,292
Advantage LeBron
Assist average
LeBron 7.3
Jordan 5.3
Advantage LeBron
Rebound Average
LeBron 7.5
Jordan 6.2
Advantage LeBron.

I could go on and on, but hopefully you see a trend here.
Anybody being honest has to acknowledge that the numbers favor LeBron.

After putting all this in a post I'm far more convinced than ever that LeBron is the GOAT.
The side by side statistical comparison shows it's not even close.

[KGdaBom]

This has been fun. The cases/spin has been made. In the end I'm comfortable that the stats support my side. Those who go with Jordan have their feelings supporting their side.

[TimberKat]

Is this thread turning into the Russell Westbrook discussion - the greatest triple double threat of all time? Bill was done since 2022(RIP) and DLo is nowhere insight unless he start to shoot 60/50/90 pct for the rest of his career as a Lakers