What level of success would make the Gobert trade acceptable?

[TimberKat]

For once we agree on something - KG is an all time great on defense. He can defend 1 to 5. I think he is better than Rodman. If you are so concern with player not moving their feet (you consider cheating), than you shouldn't be so high on Ant.

He's not an all-time great imo he's the best ever.

I this pretty much proves you are ChatGPT Troll

[TimberKat]

I'm no whiz but 113 sounds worse than 111. If we played the same scheme last year we'd likely be at 111 again maybe lower if the Conley trade still happened.

I only saw DReb% and count when I was on NBA.com, must have missed the All Rebounds.

The stat is per 100 possessions so really only good for comparing with another team in the same year. The 2010-11 Twolves team had a rating of 109.9. Are they better? That is the team with KLove, Darko, Beasley, Ridnour, and Wesley Johnson. Before you want to say yes, they were rank 27th in the league.

The pace and average rating has changed a lot in 13 years. The pace especially, so has how basketball is played.

A 13 year difference is not the same as a one year difference.

I don't see other people jumping in and saying anything about how you're using a ridiculous hyperbole, yet when I do it to chastise Gobert people are up in arms crying.

You know where the stats are. Why don’t you check the facts in recent trends before cherry pick your mis-representation or claim the data is not available. In 2020-21, Wolves’ rating was 114.5. That would be 20th in 2022 behind NYK, not too bad right? However, it was 28th in that year (2020). As I said earlier, you can’t compare defensive rating across years. If Twolves got worst this year, then the entire league got worse, or everyone is playing at a faster pace this year. Boston was top rank in 2021 at 106.2. They are second at 110.6 in 2022. Cavs is top rank in 2022 at 109.9.

You don't see other people jump in maybe it's because I am ChatGPT Nice and you are ChatGPT Troll? Maybe just because my logic chip is still fully functional? Should I open the pod bay door for you Dave? Did you have a nice space walk?

[Note30]

For once we agree on something - KG is an all time great on defense. He can defend 1 to 5. I think he is better than Rodman. If you are so concern with player not moving their feet (you consider cheating), than you shouldn't be so high on Ant.

He's not an all-time great imo he's the best ever.

I this pretty much proves you are ChatGPT Troll

Whose a better defender than KG? Name one player go for it. **** idiot. This is bait I can't wait for your stupid reply.

[Note30]

The stat is per 100 possessions so really only good for comparing with another team in the same year. The 2010-11 Twolves team had a rating of 109.9. Are they better? That is the team with KLove, Darko, Beasley, Ridnour, and Wesley Johnson. Before you want to say yes, they were rank 27th in the league.

The pace and average rating has changed a lot in 13 years. The pace especially, so has how basketball is played.

A 13 year difference is not the same as a one year difference.

I don't see other people jumping in and saying anything about how you're using a ridiculous hyperbole, yet when I do it to chastise Gobert people are up in arms crying.

You know where the stats are. Why don’t you check the facts in recent trends before cherry pick your mis-representation or claim the data is not available. In 2020-21, Wolves’ rating was 114.5. That would be 20th in 2022 behind NYK, not too bad right? However, it was 28th in that year (2020). As I said earlier, you can’t compare defensive rating across years. If Twolves got worst this year, then the entire league got worse, or everyone is playing at a faster pace this year. Boston was top rank in 2021 at 106.2. They are second at 110.6 in 2022. Cavs is top rank in 2022 at 109.9.

You don't see other people jump in maybe it's because I am ChatGPT Nice and you are ChatGPT Troll? Maybe just because my logic chip is still fully functional? Should I open the pod bay door for you Dave? Did you have a nice space walk?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/rudy-gobert-was-supposed-to-take-the-t-wolves-to-the-next-level-why-isnt-it-working/

Seems like 538 is cool comparing the years. You probably will find some way to criticize the literal stat based paper just so you can lick Goberts ball sweat for another second.

[frankenwolf]

Per36 Kessler was a better player than Gobert this year.

Our defense was also not top 10 this year we were actually a worse defensive team than last year according to NBA.com and BBall Ref. (15th at 113 vs 12th at 111). You might be referring to our half-court defense. KAT has often been blamed for how bad our defense is, but it seems like it didn't really make all that much of a difference with a purely Gobert led defense vs one with KAT.

Our defensive rebounding was also unsurprisingly exactly the same as last year. 32.8 rebs vs 32.9 rebs. Granted KAT who was the leading rebounder last year also was missing for 52 games, but by that logic Gobert isn't a better rebounder than KAT.

So what exactly are you referring to?

Even by all the statistics we are not better off with Gobert.

Per NBA.com for the regular season 2022-2023, Minnesota is 10th with a DEFRTG of 113.1. At spot #15 are the Denver Nuggets (113.5).

So, per NBA.com, the Timberwolves were a top 10 defensive team.

"Per36 Kessler was a better player than Gobert this year." - By that logic, we should trade for Marko Simonivic, because he kicked EVERYONE's Arses. (Net rating of 27.3, Jokic was 3rd at 12.5)

[urinesane]

He's not an all-time great imo he's the best ever.

I this pretty much proves you are ChatGPT Troll

Whose a better defender than KG? Name one player go for it. **** idiot. This is bait I can't wait for your stupid reply.

Why so aggressive? Weren't you the one crying to the mods because people were being "mean" to you?

[urinesane]

The pace and average rating has changed a lot in 13 years. The pace especially, so has how basketball is played.

A 13 year difference is not the same as a one year difference.

I don't see other people jumping in and saying anything about how you're using a ridiculous hyperbole, yet when I do it to chastise Gobert people are up in arms crying.

You know where the stats are. Why don’t you check the facts in recent trends before cherry pick your mis-representation or claim the data is not available. In 2020-21, Wolves’ rating was 114.5. That would be 20th in 2022 behind NYK, not too bad right? However, it was 28th in that year (2020). As I said earlier, you can’t compare defensive rating across years. If Twolves got worst this year, then the entire league got worse, or everyone is playing at a faster pace this year. Boston was top rank in 2021 at 106.2. They are second at 110.6 in 2022. Cavs is top rank in 2022 at 109.9.

You don't see other people jump in maybe it's because I am ChatGPT Nice and you are ChatGPT Troll? Maybe just because my logic chip is still fully functional? Should I open the pod bay door for you Dave? Did you have a nice space walk?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/rudy-gobert-was-supposed-to-take-the-t-wolves-to-the-next-level-why-isnt-it-working/

Seems like 538 is cool comparing the years. You probably will find some way to criticize the literal stat based paper just so you can lick Goberts ball sweat for another second.

That article is from January. Does the season end in January now? This "stat based paper" also uses their proprietary "RAPTOR" stat in order to make their argument... so you're basically just looking for anything that agrees with you at this point and act as if it's iron clad evidence.

Rudy Gobert's RAPTOR rating this season: +1.8 (offense -1.7, defense +3.5)
Anthony Edwards RAPTOR rating this season: +2.3 (offense +2.0, +0.3)

So if in your opinion Rudy is mediocre, I guess that makes Ant a bit better than mediocre? Maybe don't put all your eggs in the basket of a stat that is completely based on +/-

This is you:

[Note30]

You know where the stats are. Why don’t you check the facts in recent trends before cherry pick your mis-representation or claim the data is not available. In 2020-21, Wolves’ rating was 114.5. That would be 20th in 2022 behind NYK, not too bad right? However, it was 28th in that year (2020). As I said earlier, you can’t compare defensive rating across years. If Twolves got worst this year, then the entire league got worse, or everyone is playing at a faster pace this year. Boston was top rank in 2021 at 106.2. They are second at 110.6 in 2022. Cavs is top rank in 2022 at 109.9.

You don't see other people jump in maybe it's because I am ChatGPT Nice and you are ChatGPT Troll? Maybe just because my logic chip is still fully functional? Should I open the pod bay door for you Dave? Did you have a nice space walk?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/rudy-gobert-was-supposed-to-take-the-t-wolves-to-the-next-level-why-isnt-it-working/

Seems like 538 is cool comparing the years. You probably will find some way to criticize the literal stat based paper just so you can lick Goberts ball sweat for another second.

That article is from January. Does the season end in January now? This "stat based paper" also uses their proprietary "RAPTOR" stat in order to make their argument... so you're basically just looking for anything that agrees with you at this point and act as if it's iron clad evidence.

Rudy Gobert's RAPTOR rating this season: +1.8 (offense -1.7, defense +3.5)
Anthony Edwards RAPTOR rating this season: +2.3 (offense +2.0, +0.3)

So if in your opinion Rudy is mediocre, I guess that makes Ant a bit better than mediocre? Maybe don't put all your eggs in the basket of a stat that is completely based on +/-

This is you:

And you do what? You're the arbiter of stats and don't have any biased opinions?

[Note30]

I this pretty much proves you are ChatGPT Troll

Whose a better defender than KG? Name one player go for it. **** idiot. This is bait I can't wait for your stupid reply.

Why so aggressive? Weren't you the one crying to the mods because people were being "mean" to you?

Aggressive because I was provoked, he calls me a name, and I retaliated.

Oh sorry - I don't know what you're referring to.

[Note30]

Per36 Kessler was a better player than Gobert this year.

Our defense was also not top 10 this year we were actually a worse defensive team than last year according to NBA.com and BBall Ref. (15th at 113 vs 12th at 111). You might be referring to our half-court defense. KAT has often been blamed for how bad our defense is, but it seems like it didn't really make all that much of a difference with a purely Gobert led defense vs one with KAT.

Our defensive rebounding was also unsurprisingly exactly the same as last year. 32.8 rebs vs 32.9 rebs. Granted KAT who was the leading rebounder last year also was missing for 52 games, but by that logic Gobert isn't a better rebounder than KAT.

So what exactly are you referring to?

Even by all the statistics we are not better off with Gobert.

Per NBA.com for the regular season 2022-2023, Minnesota is 10th with a DEFRTG of 113.1. At spot #15 are the Denver Nuggets (113.5).

So, per NBA.com, the Timberwolves were a top 10 defensive team.

"Per36 Kessler was a better player than Gobert this year." - By that logic, we should trade for Marko Simonivic, because he kicked EVERYONE's Arses. (Net rating of 27.3, Jokic was 3rd at 12.5)

Except Siminovic didn't play relevant minutes. Nor has he ever.

24 min over 74 games vs Siminovic what?

Gobert averaged 4 more points and 3 more rebounds than Kessler in the 7 minutes he played more.

That's a pretty close call, with the right flow and rythym one could argue Kessler would average more, per 36 is just a means to point that out.

[urinesane]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/rudy-gobert-was-supposed-to-take-the-t-wolves-to-the-next-level-why-isnt-it-working/

Seems like 538 is cool comparing the years. You probably will find some way to criticize the literal stat based paper just so you can lick Goberts ball sweat for another second.

That article is from January. Does the season end in January now? This "stat based paper" also uses their proprietary "RAPTOR" stat in order to make their argument... so you're basically just looking for anything that agrees with you at this point and act as if it's iron clad evidence.

Rudy Gobert's RAPTOR rating this season: +1.8 (offense -1.7, defense +3.5)
Anthony Edwards RAPTOR rating this season: +2.3 (offense +2.0, +0.3)

So if in your opinion Rudy is mediocre, I guess that makes Ant a bit better than mediocre? Maybe don't put all your eggs in the basket of a stat that is completely based on +/-

This is you:

And you do what? You're the arbiter of stats and don't have any biased opinions?

Do you have a quote of me saying that? You argue like a drunk know-it-all 20 something at a party.

[urinesane]

Whose a better defender than KG? Name one player go for it. **** idiot. This is bait I can't wait for your stupid reply.

Why so aggressive? Weren't you the one crying to the mods because people were being "mean" to you?

Aggressive because I was provoked, he calls me a name, and I retaliated.

Oh sorry - I don't know what you're referring to.

He called you a troll (which you call other people regularly) and you called him a **** idiot.

That level of escalation not only makes sense to you, but feels justified?

[urinesane]

Per36 Kessler was a better player than Gobert this year.

Our defense was also not top 10 this year we were actually a worse defensive team than last year according to NBA.com and BBall Ref. (15th at 113 vs 12th at 111). You might be referring to our half-court defense. KAT has often been blamed for how bad our defense is, but it seems like it didn't really make all that much of a difference with a purely Gobert led defense vs one with KAT.

Our defensive rebounding was also unsurprisingly exactly the same as last year. 32.8 rebs vs 32.9 rebs. Granted KAT who was the leading rebounder last year also was missing for 52 games, but by that logic Gobert isn't a better rebounder than KAT.

So what exactly are you referring to?

Even by all the statistics we are not better off with Gobert.

Per NBA.com for the regular season 2022-2023, Minnesota is 10th with a DEFRTG of 113.1. At spot #15 are the Denver Nuggets (113.5).

So, per NBA.com, the Timberwolves were a top 10 defensive team.

"Per36 Kessler was a better player than Gobert this year." - By that logic, we should trade for Marko Simonivic, because he kicked EVERYONE's Arses. (Net rating of 27.3, Jokic was 3rd at 12.5)

Except Siminovic didn't play relevant minutes. Nor has he ever.

24 min over 74 games vs Siminovic what?

Gobert averaged 4 more points and 3 more rebounds than Kessler in the 7 minutes he played more.

That's a pretty close call, with the right flow and rythym one could argue Kessler would average more, per 36 is just a means to point that out.

With "the right flow and rhythm" wouldn't that also help Rudy? Part of the dip in his production this year is clearly based on lack of chemistry with teammates (i.e. teammates not knowing how to play with him, which has been talked about regularly by Gobert's former teammates), so if that were improved in Gobert's situation, would it not improve his stats as well?

Or does that only work for the person you are arguing is better?

[Note30]

Per NBA.com for the regular season 2022-2023, Minnesota is 10th with a DEFRTG of 113.1. At spot #15 are the Denver Nuggets (113.5).

So, per NBA.com, the Timberwolves were a top 10 defensive team.

"Per36 Kessler was a better player than Gobert this year." - By that logic, we should trade for Marko Simonivic, because he kicked EVERYONE's Arses. (Net rating of 27.3, Jokic was 3rd at 12.5)

Except Siminovic didn't play relevant minutes. Nor has he ever.

24 min over 74 games vs Siminovic what?

Gobert averaged 4 more points and 3 more rebounds than Kessler in the 7 minutes he played more.

That's a pretty close call, with the right flow and rythym one could argue Kessler would average more, per 36 is just a means to point that out.

With "the right flow and rhythm" wouldn't that also help Rudy? Part of the dip in his production this year is clearly based on lack of chemistry with teammates (i.e. teammates not knowing how to play with him, which has been talked about regularly by Gobert's former teammates), so if that were improved in Gobert's situation, would it not improve his stats as well?

Or does that only work for the person you are arguing is better?

Yeah... It's pretty clear that you have never played the game. Do you understand how hard it is to come off the bench or even play spot minutes?

When I say rythym and flow, I mean of the game. When you come in for stints, you still need to get into the flow, there's a lot of science behind it, this isn't some undocumented phenomena. It's sometimes why players "explode" when given starting minutes. The longer you're in the game the more you pick up, and while you might be getting tired, you see more, you understand more, than if you were to come in and play a couple minutes here and there. That changes how you move, act, defend, your shot, your call outs, your positioning. It takes atleast a minute to get into the flow of the game. While Kessler might not experience that massive of a jump because he has atleast 5 minute stints based on his minute chart, that extra few minutes makes a huge difference.

Kessler was a rookie he also had new teammates in fact throughout the season he had completely brand new teammates and rotations AND HE WAS A ROOKIE.

He didn't know players tendencies, he didn't know what some people are good at what they like, Rudy has had years. A scouting report only tells you so much.

Gobert has literally played against almost everyone and in some cases like Conley with them for years.

[Note30]

Why so aggressive? Weren't you the one crying to the mods because people were being "mean" to you?

Aggressive because I was provoked, he calls me a name, and I retaliated.

Oh sorry - I don't know what you're referring to.

He called you a troll (which you call other people regularly) and you called him a **** idiot.

That level of escalation not only makes sense to you, but feels justified?

Yeah

[Note30]

That article is from January. Does the season end in January now? This "stat based paper" also uses their proprietary "RAPTOR" stat in order to make their argument... so you're basically just looking for anything that agrees with you at this point and act as if it's iron clad evidence.

Rudy Gobert's RAPTOR rating this season: +1.8 (offense -1.7, defense +3.5)
Anthony Edwards RAPTOR rating this season: +2.3 (offense +2.0, +0.3)

So if in your opinion Rudy is mediocre, I guess that makes Ant a bit better than mediocre? Maybe don't put all your eggs in the basket of a stat that is completely based on +/-

This is you:

And you do what? You're the arbiter of stats and don't have any biased opinions?

Do you have a quote of me saying that? You argue like a drunk know-it-all 20 something at a party.

It's in the tone of your text, you may say you argue from a position of understanding but you don't really. Your arguments are just as harsh just as stubborn. I may be more reactionary at times, but I'm not sitting here pretending that I don't think I'm right. I absolutely do think that and unless you can present me with real in game evidence or proof that's video based chances are Ill argue against whatever stat you have, because metrics don't mean **** without your own eyes viewing it.

[TimberKat]

He's not an all-time great imo he's the best ever.

I this pretty much proves you are ChatGPT Troll

Whose a better defender than KG? Name one player go for it. **** idiot. This is bait I can't wait for your stupid reply.

Well, don’t like the language of where this one is heading. Shutting it down. You could just ask google who’s the greatest defender of all time. I will give you a hint, it’s not Gobert and it’s not DLo.

[TimberKat]

The pace and average rating has changed a lot in 13 years. The pace especially, so has how basketball is played.

A 13 year difference is not the same as a one year difference.

I don't see other people jumping in and saying anything about how you're using a ridiculous hyperbole, yet when I do it to chastise Gobert people are up in arms crying.

You know where the stats are. Why don’t you check the facts in recent trends before cherry pick your mis-representation or claim the data is not available. In 2020-21, Wolves’ rating was 114.5. That would be 20th in 2022 behind NYK, not too bad right? However, it was 28th in that year (2020). As I said earlier, you can’t compare defensive rating across years. If Twolves got worst this year, then the entire league got worse, or everyone is playing at a faster pace this year. Boston was top rank in 2021 at 106.2. They are second at 110.6 in 2022. Cavs is top rank in 2022 at 109.9.

You don't see other people jump in maybe it's because I am ChatGPT Nice and you are ChatGPT Troll? Maybe just because my logic chip is still fully functional? Should I open the pod bay door for you Dave? Did you have a nice space walk?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/rudy-gobert-was-supposed-to-take-the-t-wolves-to-the-next-level-why-isnt-it-working/

Seems like 538 is cool comparing the years. You probably will find some way to criticize the literal stat based paper just so you can lick Goberts ball sweat for another second.

“Error… Error… Do not Compute… Faulty!...Faulty!...Dirt Detected…Must Sterilize!”

[urinesane]

And you do what? You're the arbiter of stats and don't have any biased opinions?

Do you have a quote of me saying that? You argue like a drunk know-it-all 20 something at a party.

It's in the tone of your text, you may say you argue from a position of understanding but you don't really.

Where have I ever said that? You are the one that regularly brings up the fact that you played bball in college as some sort of proof that you're right and people are wrong. I have opinions and views on things, almost always different than you (somehow), but unlike you I am not here to "win" a discussion. I enjoy hearing well thought out views, but you pretty much just shift the conversation anytime someone brings up data counter to your argument (or doesn't agree with your opinions).

You are a hypocrite, because you'll point to one cherry picked stat, metric, blog post etc as definitive proof of your opinion somehow being fact (none of our opinions are fact), but when anyone presents anything to you, you instantly dismiss it because it doesn't mesh with your views.

Your arguments are just as harsh just as stubborn. I may be more reactionary at times, but I'm not sitting here pretending that I don't think I'm right. I absolutely do think that and unless you can present me with real in game evidence or proof that's video based chances are Ill argue against whatever stat you have, because metrics don't mean **** without your own eyes viewing it.

Harsh, not sure about that. Stubborn, sure I can be stubborn, but I don't partake in your level of mental gymnastics. You will basically say anything to avoid the potential of ever being wrong, because you are insecure and cannot put your ego aside (hence the constantly bringing up your college ball experience as if that makes you some sort of authority on the NBA).

When someone pushes back and you don't have a leg to stand on, you either call names, cry to the admins, or both.

You seem like the type of person that alienates their friends by never letting an argument go (and acting like you know everything) and then wonders why nobody wants to hang out with you.

[Note30]

And you do what? You're the arbiter of stats and don't have any biased opinions?

Do you have a quote of me saying that? You argue like a drunk know-it-all 20 something at a party.

It's in the tone of your text, you may say you argue from a position of understanding but you don't really.

Where have I ever said that? You are the one that regularly brings up the fact that you played bball in college as some sort of proof that you're right and people are wrong. I have opinions and views on things, almost always different than you (somehow), but unlike you I am not here to "win" a discussion. I enjoy hearing well thought out views, but you pretty much just shift the conversation anytime someone brings up data counter to your argument (or doesn't agree with your opinions).

You are a hypocrite, because you'll point to one cherry picked stat, metric, blog post etc as definitive proof of your opinion somehow being fact (none of our opinions are fact), but when anyone presents anything to you, you instantly dismiss it because it doesn't mesh with your views.

Your arguments are just as harsh just as stubborn. I may be more reactionary at times, but I'm not sitting here pretending that I don't think I'm right. I absolutely do think that and unless you can present me with real in game evidence or proof that's video based chances are Ill argue against whatever stat you have, because metrics don't mean **** without your own eyes viewing it.

Harsh, not sure about that. Stubborn, sure I can be stubborn, but I don't partake in your level of mental gymnastics. You will basically say anything to avoid the potential of ever being wrong, because you are insecure and cannot put your ego aside (hence the constantly bringing up your college ball experience as if that makes you some sort of authority on the NBA).

When someone pushes back and you don't have a leg to stand on, you either call names, cry to the admins, or both.

You seem like the type of person that alienates their friends by never letting an argument go (and acting like you know everything) and then wonders why nobody wants to hang out with you.

I feel like you're projecting quite a bit.

As far as quoting my experience, I'm sure in the real world you were once or are currently good at something. Maybe not the best or even in the top 20% but you know enough. And then you hear things that contradict everything you've been taught, experienced, or have otherwise considered commonplace. Wouldn't you be like wtf is this person talking about?

I don't think outside of maybe one report I made, I have quote "cried to the admins". Sure I name call- in this particular instance I was just retaliating, Whether its justified or not, meh.

Also as far as blog posts go, or random statistics, i'm not much of a stats guy so I while I know Synergy has a bunch of cool ****, I'm most likely going to the free sources and quote pretty standard metrics.

Honestly, I'm kinda tired of dealing with you and TimberKat (and I'm sure the feeling is mutual)- it'll probably be better for my mental health to take a break from this forum until the new season.