Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!)

[KGdaBom]

Gobert for Murray and Okongu.

I don't think Atlanta would do that. They've got Gobert light in Capela. Also Gobert's age is a big factor. It would have to be KAT.

[shangrila]

I do not think that trading KAT is the way to go. Let's say KAT is traded and then Rudy retires in three years. Then what? Are you sure we got a decent return for KAT? Did we get a big man to replace Rudy? If we are wanting to maximize Ant, trade Rudy. If everyone is worried about payroll, trade them all and start over again and enjoy another 20 years of inept Minnesota basketball.

As far as I am concerned, the only trades the Wolves need to be thinking about are those that improve the fringes. We have a great core and should be able to sustain it for the next 5-7 years. If I owned this team, I'm sure the revenue made from multiple championships will off set the tax the team has to pay.

Are you willing to bet on KAT's health? Remember, he hasn't played a full season since his 3rd year and has only played over 70 games twice in the last 6 years.

If you want to argue that he's worth his contract (I don't think he is), is he still worth it if he's playing 50-60 games?

[shangrila]

Part of ATL’s problem with DeJounte Murray has been that he hasn’t been as good a defender as they thought they were getting from the Spurs. His offensive game is improving, but his defense has slid backwards a bit.

I’m surprised that with Capella in many of these deals, the trade offer is for Towns, and not Gobert. While KAT and especially Naz can emulate PF’s, Capella is exclusively a center, and since he is significantly worse than Rudy, he’d be limited to 12-16 minutes a game

Murray's defence dipped after moving to the 2 full time. From what I've read he's still good at the 1, which is where he'd be playing here.

Capela is expiring and is there as a filler. I don't think anyone views him as a major piece moving forward.

[shangrila]

Find me a player better than Towns, that we add assets to get.

That's not a million years old?

Kind of my point. I don’t think that player exists, even if we add assets.

I assume we are a win now team, and want to compete for a championship next year, right?

So not a trade package dividing up talent with picks and, “maybe he’ll eventually grow into someone as good as Towns” young guy?

It's a fairly simplistic way of looking at it.

We won't be able to get a player better than Towns because we have no assets to attach and because his health issues and massive contract depress his value. Amassing excellent individual players with no thought to the salary cap or roster construction is also how you end up as the Phoenix Suns.

In terms of being win-now, I view our window as Ant's career. So next season isn't make or break for me. If trading KAT does lead to us taking a step back in order to continue progresssing moving forward...I'd take that.

It does ultimately come down to what we get for Towns though. I think Klomp floated a Detroit, trade KAT for Ivey and 40mil of capspace kind of deal which I wouldn't do. But something like the proposed Atlanta trades, that give us a long term starting piece at a position of need (at least long term) that's locked into a great contract? Give me that, even if KAT is better than Murray.

[TimberKat]

My simple take is Taylor should put up or shut up. Pay the tax to build the best team possible. If we get a player better than Towns great, if not we keep rolling with this core. Financial flexibility by itself is meaningless. It we trade Towns for picks, you better already have a picks for all-star trade lineup. This core has improved from 42 wins to 57 wins. Why do we need another direction unless it's a can't miss like Holmgren or Brunson. I think Murray by himself is not enough unless it's Jamal.

[Klomp]

If I was negotiating with Atlanta, I would be trying to get Jalen Johnson (Atlanta's version of Naz Reid) and/or Onyeka Okongwu in addition to Dejounte Murray.

[Neeva]

If I was negotiating with Atlanta, I would be trying to get Jalen Johnson (Atlanta's version of Naz Reid) and/or Onyeka Okongwu in addition to Dejounte Murray.

We waited too long to get Johnson, If the wolves traded kat at this years deadline maybe could have gotten Johnson since Murray’s stock was down, now they will probably have to so something like
Kat/Jaden/Moore for Murray/Johnson/Hunter/filler and picks?

[Klomp]

If I was negotiating with Atlanta, I would be trying to get Jalen Johnson (Atlanta's version of Naz Reid) and/or Onyeka Okongwu in addition to Dejounte Murray.

We waited too long to get Johnson, If the wolves traded kat at this years deadline maybe could have gotten Johnson since Murray’s stock was down, now they will probably have to so something like
Kat/Jaden/Moore for Murray/Johnson/Hunter/filler and picks?

Maybe. Maybe not.

[shrink]

That's not a million years old?

Kind of my point. I don’t think that player exists, even if we add assets.

I assume we are a win now team, and want to compete for a championship next year, right?

So not a trade package dividing up talent with picks and, “maybe he’ll eventually grow into someone as good as Towns” young guy?

It's a fairly simplistic way of looking at it.

We won't be able to get a player better than Towns because we have no assets to attach and because his health issues and massive contract depress his value. Amassing excellent individual players with no thought to the salary cap or roster construction is also how you end up as the Phoenix Suns.

It’s also how you win championships the last twenty years like the Warriors, Lakers, Heat, Bucks, and maybe BOS this year. You pay for multiple all stars, go into the lux, and roll the dice you win a ring.

Look, I’m certainly the guy you’ve heard the last 15 years stressing the importance of frugality. Money is a real thing. But I also believe championship windows can close in an instant. That is doubly true in Minnesota, who has maybe been this close only once in its 35 year existence. This is the time you get the best talent you can, bite the financial bullet, and try to win a ring.

[minimus]

If I was negotiating with Atlanta, I would be trying to get Jalen Johnson (Atlanta's version of Naz Reid) and/or Onyeka Okongwu in addition to Dejounte Murray.

Adding Jalen Johnson would solve ATL problem of not having enough picks to acquire a star such as Towns. Although Jalen Johnson is considered untouchable. But current ATL roster construction does not work anyway. So if they want to make another soft rebuild, before 2024 draft:

ATL IN: Towns, Moore, Dieng, LAC 2024 FRP from OKC
ATL OUT: Capela, Johnson, Murray, two ATL SRPs

Why for ATL: rebuild around Towns+Young. They still will have enough firepower and depth: Okongwu, Hunter, Bogdanovic and three FRPs in 2024 draft

OKC IN: Capela
ORL OUT: Dort, Dieng, LAC 2024 FRP

Why for OKC: get a true big

MIN IN: Johnson, Murray, Dort, two ATL SRPs
MIN OUT: Towns, Moore

Why for MIN: get starting PG (although I prefer Murray to come of bench, and Conely acting as pseudo starting PG), improve depth on wings, complete transformation into four-out scheme around Gobert, keep same core, keep same defensive minded identity. Create some room to re-sign NAW, Reid after 2024-25. Next steps: re-sign Morris, McLaughlin, Anderson.

Gobert/Reid/???
Johnson/Anderson/Miller
McDaniels/Dort/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Murray + Clark
Conley/Murray/Morris

Use draft picks to draft future replacement of Gobert.

P.S. Someone will say that MIN does not get enough picks in this deal, but Jalen Johnson is really special

Watch on YouTube

[minimus]

Part of ATL’s problem with DeJounte Murray has been that he hasn’t been as good a defender as they thought they were getting from the Spurs. His offensive game is improving, but his defense has slid backwards a bit.

I’m surprised that with Capella in many of these deals, the trade offer is for Towns, and not Gobert. While KAT and especially Naz can emulate PF’s, Capella is exclusively a center, and since he is significantly worse than Rudy, he’d be limited to 12-16 minutes a game

Murray's defence dipped after moving to the 2 full time. From what I've read he's still good at the 1, which is where he'd be playing here.

I think NAW and Murray have pretty similar size/wingspan/weight. NAW gives 100% effort, but opponent superstars are able to score against him regularly, but he makes their life harder. The difference is that NAW coming from the bench and have McDaniels/Edwards to share PoA duties and Gobert/Towns/Anderson in backline. Murray has to defend against starters while also having disadvantage in small Young. So in case we acquire Murray I want him to either come from bench in 2024-25 or be secondary PoA defender in heavy switching perimeter defense McDaniels/Edwards/Murray.

P.S. Murray mid range game/creativity is a bonus, but I think it is better to use as offense generator from bench.

[shangrila]

Kind of my point. I don’t think that player exists, even if we add assets.

I assume we are a win now team, and want to compete for a championship next year, right?

So not a trade package dividing up talent with picks and, “maybe he’ll eventually grow into someone as good as Towns” young guy?

It's a fairly simplistic way of looking at it.

We won't be able to get a player better than Towns because we have no assets to attach and because his health issues and massive contract depress his value. Amassing excellent individual players with no thought to the salary cap or roster construction is also how you end up as the Phoenix Suns.

It’s also how you win championships the last twenty years like the Warriors, Lakers, Heat, Bucks, and maybe BOS this year. You pay for multiple all stars, go into the lux, and roll the dice you win a ring.

Look, I’m certainly the guy you’ve heard the last 15 years stressing the importance of frugality. But I also believe championship windows can close in an instant. That is doubly true in Minnesota, who has maybe been this close only once in its 35 year existence. This is the time you get the best talent you can, bite the financial bullet, and try to win a ring.

From memory the Heat have always been a frugal team, rarely if ever paying the luxury tax. That might have changed during the Lebron years though.

For the record, I don't disagree and would love for ownership to go deep into the luxury tax to keep a winning team together. But I've never seen any indication that Glen would do that (he'll pay the tax but what we were looking at was something different), a lot of flags that suggest Lore/ARod can't do it, and a new CBA that is so punishing for teams that try to that it almost makes it impossible even if we could.

[shangrila]

Part of ATL’s problem with DeJounte Murray has been that he hasn’t been as good a defender as they thought they were getting from the Spurs. His offensive game is improving, but his defense has slid backwards a bit.

I’m surprised that with Capella in many of these deals, the trade offer is for Towns, and not Gobert. While KAT and especially Naz can emulate PF’s, Capella is exclusively a center, and since he is significantly worse than Rudy, he’d be limited to 12-16 minutes a game

Murray's defence dipped after moving to the 2 full time. From what I've read he's still good at the 1, which is where he'd be playing here.

I think NAW and Murray have pretty similar size/wingspan/weight. NAW gives 100% effort, but opponent superstars are able to score against him regularly, but he makes their life harder. The difference is that NAW coming from the bench and have McDaniels/Edwards to share PoA duties and Gobert/Towns/Anderson in backline. Murray has to defend against starters while also having disadvantage in small Young. So in case we acquire Murray I want him to either come from bench in 2024-25 or be secondary PoA defender in heavy switching perimeter defense McDaniels/Edwards/Murray.

P.S. Murray mid range game/creativity is a bonus, but I think it is better to use as offense generator from bench.

Murray isn't coming off the bench. He wouldn't accept that and I wouldn't expect him to

[shrink]

It’s also how you win championships the last twenty years like the Warriors, Lakers, Heat, Bucks, and maybe BOS this year. You pay for multiple all stars, go into the lux, and roll the dice you win a ring.

Look, I’m certainly the guy you’ve heard the last 15 years stressing the importance of frugality. But I also believe championship windows can close in an instant. That is doubly true in Minnesota, who has maybe been this close only once in its 35 year existence. This is the time you get the best talent you can, bite the financial bullet, and try to win a ring.

From memory the Heat have always been a frugal team, rarely if ever paying the luxury tax. That might have changed during the Lebron years though.

For the record, I don't disagree and would love for ownership to go deep into the luxury tax to keep a winning team together. But I've never seen any indication that Glen would do that (he'll pay the tax but what we were looking at was something different), a lot of flags that suggest Lore/ARod can't do it, and a new CBA that is so punishing for teams that try to that it almost makes it impossible even if we could.

You could be right about MIA’s finances with LeBron, Bosh and Wade - I don’t remember either. I’m trying to say many of the recent NBA Champions are a collection of multiple max deal players. MIN is behind the ball game, because if you’re LA or MIA, max deal free agents want to come to your team. But to truly contend with superteams, we’ll need max players that will probably push us into the lux. We have a small window this year, and potentially next, that we have filled in around those players with good players on good deals, like Naz, NAW and Conley. But you’re right, we can’t keep them here forever, and if we have to replace them with vet min guys in 2025-26, we’ll look a lot like PHX.

[winforlose]

It’s also how you win championships the last twenty years like the Warriors, Lakers, Heat, Bucks, and maybe BOS this year. You pay for multiple all stars, go into the lux, and roll the dice you win a ring.

Look, I’m certainly the guy you’ve heard the last 15 years stressing the importance of frugality. But I also believe championship windows can close in an instant. That is doubly true in Minnesota, who has maybe been this close only once in its 35 year existence. This is the time you get the best talent you can, bite the financial bullet, and try to win a ring.

From memory the Heat have always been a frugal team, rarely if ever paying the luxury tax. That might have changed during the Lebron years though.

For the record, I don't disagree and would love for ownership to go deep into the luxury tax to keep a winning team together. But I've never seen any indication that Glen would do that (he'll pay the tax but what we were looking at was something different), a lot of flags that suggest Lore/ARod can't do it, and a new CBA that is so punishing for teams that try to that it almost makes it impossible even if we could.

You could be right about MIA’s finances with LeBron, Bosh and Wade - I don’t remember either. I’m trying to say many of the recent NBA Champions are a collection of multiple max deal players. MIN is behind the ball game, because if you’re LA or MIA, max deal free agents want to come to your team. But to truly contend with superteams, we’ll need max players that will probably push us into the lux. We have a small window this year, and potentially next, that we have filled in around those players with good players on good deals, like Naz, NAW and Conley. But you’re right, we can’t keep them here forever, and if we have to replace them with vet min guys in 2025-26, we’ll look a lot like PHX.

Look back at the last 10 NBA champions, how many of them were below the luxury tax? Off hand I know GSW was in the tax in 22, and Denver was last year. I am pretty sure the Lakers and Bucks were in 20 and 21 (not 100% but pretty high confidence level,) and then going back I suspect GSW was and Cleveland was during the Dnyasty years.

[minimus]

Murray's defence dipped after moving to the 2 full time. From what I've read he's still good at the 1, which is where he'd be playing here.

I think NAW and Murray have pretty similar size/wingspan/weight. NAW gives 100% effort, but opponent superstars are able to score against him regularly, but he makes their life harder. The difference is that NAW coming from the bench and have McDaniels/Edwards to share PoA duties and Gobert/Towns/Anderson in backline. Murray has to defend against starters while also having disadvantage in small Young. So in case we acquire Murray I want him to either come from bench in 2024-25 or be secondary PoA defender in heavy switching perimeter defense McDaniels/Edwards/Murray.

P.S. Murray mid range game/creativity is a bonus, but I think it is better to use as offense generator from bench.

Murray isn't coming off the bench. He wouldn't accept that and I wouldn't expect him to

Correct, thats why I say it will be ego problem.

[minimus]

ORL IN: Towns
ORL OUT: WCJ, Isaac, Suggs, Houstan, 2024 FRP, 2025 FRP

Why for ORL: build around Towns+Bnachero+Wganer frontcourt.

MIA IN: WCJ, Moore, Houstan
ORL OUT: Duncan Robinson, 2028 FRP

Why for MIA: get a depth at C/PF

MIN IN: Isaac, Suggs, Robinson, ORL 2024 FRP, 2025 FRP, 2028 FRP from MIA
MIN OUT: Towns, Moore

Why for MIN: get future starting PG, get a movement shooter, get some temporary solution at PF

Gobert/Reid/Isaac
Reid/Isaac/Miller
McDaniels/Robinson/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Clark
Conley/Suggs/Morris

[Shaka_Zulu]

I prefer the Hawks one you posted days ago minimus. I dont really trust Isaacs health and I don't want another non shooter. Suggs is elite defensive roleplayer combo guard, a NAW with more upside, not much scoring or playmaking. Robinson hot and cold movement shooter nearing 30 that can't defend



The Hawks package much better imo.

Murray genuine star combo guard, great midrange, decent playmaking, excellent driving game ok perimeter.

Jalen Johnson, genuine high upside young talented PF/SF, can do everything on the court, nice all rounder.


Dort is ideal type of 3 n D wing. Fantastic defending and spot up volume shooting.


Not just better players potentially but better fit for us.


I know you said some may question why we wouldn't get more picks in hawks+dort deal. But imo it's already good enough. One star guard (tho he is a total headcase), high upside young talent, and starter level wing 3 n d.

[frankenwolf]

I do not think that trading KAT is the way to go. Let's say KAT is traded and then Rudy retires in three years. Then what? Are you sure we got a decent return for KAT? Did we get a big man to replace Rudy? If we are wanting to maximize Ant, trade Rudy. If everyone is worried about payroll, trade them all and start over again and enjoy another 20 years of inept Minnesota basketball.

As far as I am concerned, the only trades the Wolves need to be thinking about are those that improve the fringes. We have a great core and should be able to sustain it for the next 5-7 years. If I owned this team, I'm sure the revenue made from multiple championships will off set the tax the team has to pay.

Are you willing to bet on KAT's health? Remember, he hasn't played a full season since his 3rd year and has only played over 70 games twice in the last 6 years.

If you want to argue that he's worth his contract (I don't think he is), is he still worth it if he's playing 50-60 games?

Of course I'm willing to bet on his health. So are the Timberwolves, apparently.
TBH, I have a hard time justifying anyone's contract. Are any of these guys really worth the money they are getting paid? The question for the future is, after this playoff run, is it worth it to keep them together and maximize Ant's championship window?

[Klomp]

If a Towns trade were to go down, what are the best options...

-Atlanta is one of them that comes to mind, as they have their own question marks. They have guard depth which is what we could be looking for.
-I think New Orleans is one that not enough people talk about. They just have such a good collection of both prospects and veterans that would be appealing. And Towns would give them size but wouldn't clog Zion's driving lanes.
-I think we have to bring up the New York markets, because we're in a position where we could try to appease Towns on the way out. A Knicks or Nets offer would likely have to be picks heavy (approaching what we gave for Gobert), because they just don't have the pieces.