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Off-season 2024

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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#21 » by minimus » Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:00 pm

Klomp wrote:My takeaway from the Connelly regime to date: See problem, resolve problem.

Problem 1: Interior defense, defensive rebounding in Memphis series.
Solution: Trade for arguably best defensive interior player in the world, sign maybe the best on the open market to MLE

Problem 2: Professionalism, taking every game seriously
Solution: Trade for Mike Conley Jr.

Problem 3: Too many turnovers
Solution: Trade for one of best A/TO guys in the last 5 years

Problem 4: Bullied by bigger, athletic forwards
Solution: Sign physical forward Marcus Morris?


My question is: does Marcus Morris provide more than Reid, Anderson and McDaniels can do? Meanwhile I would prefer someone like Joe Harris can help MIN to keep a non shooter such as Anderson or Gobert on the floor.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#22 » by minimus » Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:34 pm

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1. Resign Conley. Done 22mil /2yrs
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#23 » by TimberKat » Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:58 pm

According to Spotrac, we are around 14m over tax line next year with the new signing. I hope the new ownership knows the price for a winner in NBA these days.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#24 » by life_saver » Mon Feb 19, 2024 7:20 pm

Not a huge difference but Woj has 2 for 21M whereas Shams has 2 for 22M. Maybe 1-2M might be based on incentives
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#25 » by shangrila » Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:04 pm

life_saver wrote:Not a huge difference but Woj has 2 for 21M whereas Shams has 2 for 22M. Maybe 1-2M might be based on incentives

Or it's 21.5 and they rounded in opposite directions.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#26 » by shangrila » Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:05 pm

minimus wrote:
Klomp wrote:My takeaway from the Connelly regime to date: See problem, resolve problem.

Problem 1: Interior defense, defensive rebounding in Memphis series.
Solution: Trade for arguably best defensive interior player in the world, sign maybe the best on the open market to MLE

Problem 2: Professionalism, taking every game seriously
Solution: Trade for Mike Conley Jr.

Problem 3: Too many turnovers
Solution: Trade for one of best A/TO guys in the last 5 years

Problem 4: Bullied by bigger, athletic forwards
Solution: Sign physical forward Marcus Morris?


My question is: does Marcus Morris provide more than Reid, Anderson and McDaniels can do? Meanwhile I would prefer someone like Joe Harris can help MIN to keep a non shooter such as Anderson or Gobert on the floor.

Harris is cooked, no point in signing him.

Morris provides physical defence and a good 3pt shot. That's enough for a buyout guy.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#27 » by Klomp » Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:23 pm

shangrila wrote:
life_saver wrote:Not a huge difference but Woj has 2 for 21M whereas Shams has 2 for 22M. Maybe 1-2M might be based on incentives

Or it's 21.5 and they rounded in opposite directions.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#28 » by minimus » Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:50 am

Guys, is it possible for MIN to sign Morris and Anderson to backloaded contracts? I mean Lin in HOU got 5+5+15 contract, I don't know how, but is it legal under new CBA?
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#29 » by BlacJacMac » Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:20 am

minimus wrote:Guys, is it possible for MIN to sign Morris and Anderson to backloaded contracts? I mean Lin in HOU got 5+5+15 contract, I don't know how, but is it legal under new CBA?


No. Raises are limited to 8% for Bird FAs. I’m not sure, but since we’d only have Early Bird on KA, he might be limited to 5%.

The Lin case was an unusual one involving the Gilbert Arenas provision and a team well under the cap making him an offer. I don’t remember the exact details off the top of my head, but it doesn’t apply to us in any way resigning either guy.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#30 » by winforlose » Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:25 am

minimus wrote:Guys, is it possible for MIN to sign Morris and Anderson to backloaded contracts? I mean Lin in HOU got 5+5+15 contract, I don't know how, but is it legal under new CBA?


While that cannot be done, we can do a modified sign and trade for Kyle. We either extend him now or resign him in the off season. With his new deal his bird rights vest in case of trade. So we move him either before or during the season (at or around the deadline,) and we get all of his money as either trade return or as a TPE. Depending on the timing the TPE could be used as an MLE on any waived player, but it’s better value is before the season. We could sign someone for 10 to 11 million as long as we are willing to pay the tax. Or, we could sign two players (Shake and Troy style,) and break Kyle into two contracts to help fill out the team.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#31 » by shrink » Wed Feb 21, 2024 2:30 pm

winforlose wrote:
minimus wrote:Guys, is it possible for MIN to sign Morris and Anderson to backloaded contracts? I mean Lin in HOU got 5+5+15 contract, I don't know how, but is it legal under new CBA?


While that cannot be done, we can do a modified sign and trade for Kyle. We either extend him now or resign him in the off season. With his new deal his bird rights vest in case of trade. So we move him either before or during the season (at or around the deadline,) and we get all of his money as either trade return or as a TPE. Depending on the timing the TPE could be used as an MLE on any waived player, but it’s better value is before the season. We could sign someone for 10 to 11 million as long as we are willing to pay the tax. Or, we could sign two players (Shake and Troy style,) and break Kyle into two contracts to help fill out the team.

Teams over the second apron don’t get to use TPE’s, so it would need to be trading for players making the same or less than Kyle.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#32 » by winforlose » Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:36 pm

shrink wrote:
winforlose wrote:
minimus wrote:Guys, is it possible for MIN to sign Morris and Anderson to backloaded contracts? I mean Lin in HOU got 5+5+15 contract, I don't know how, but is it legal under new CBA?


While that cannot be done, we can do a modified sign and trade for Kyle. We either extend him now or resign him in the off season. With his new deal his bird rights vest in case of trade. So we move him either before or during the season (at or around the deadline,) and we get all of his money as either trade return or as a TPE. Depending on the timing the TPE could be used as an MLE on any waived player, but it’s better value is before the season. We could sign someone for 10 to 11 million as long as we are willing to pay the tax. Or, we could sign two players (Shake and Troy style,) and break Kyle into two contracts to help fill out the team.

Teams over the second apron don’t get to use TPE’s, so it would need to be trading for players making the same or less than Kyle.


Incorrect. Teams cannot use TPEs created during the prior season. They can use them if they are generated this season.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#33 » by NebWolvesFan » Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:57 pm

I think the Wolves -baring a postseason disaster- run it back and go over the second apron for another year. I think there will be a lot of talk about a new arena next year when Marc/ARod take over so they are going to want to field the best team possible. I see Monte and Kyle resigning. Much like Naz last year, if Minnesota didn't think they could bring Kyle back, they would have traded him.

24-24 roster
Conley, Edwards, Gobert, Towns, McDaniels, Monte, NAZ, NAW, Miller, Anderson. Then, add in first round pick, second round pick, either Clark (if he looks good in summer league) or Garza (if he signed standard deal this week) and my min FA prediction - Taurean Prince. Guys liked him in the locker room and he may take less to return to Minnesota.

Go over the second apron next season and then get back under through KAT summer 25 trade or potential Rudy renegotiation of his contract.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#34 » by shrink » Wed Feb 21, 2024 5:56 pm

winforlose wrote:
shrink wrote:
winforlose wrote:
While that cannot be done, we can do a modified sign and trade for Kyle. We either extend him now or resign him in the off season. With his new deal his bird rights vest in case of trade. So we move him either before or during the season (at or around the deadline,) and we get all of his money as either trade return or as a TPE. Depending on the timing the TPE could be used as an MLE on any waived player, but it’s better value is before the season. We could sign someone for 10 to 11 million as long as we are willing to pay the tax. Or, we could sign two players (Shake and Troy style,) and break Kyle into two contracts to help fill out the team.

Teams over the second apron don’t get to use TPE’s, so it would need to be trading for players making the same or less than Kyle.


Incorrect. Teams cannot use TPEs created during the prior season. They can use them if they are generated this season.

Thank you, winforlose! I didn’t note this distinction in the new rule before!
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#35 » by winforlose » Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:10 pm

NebWolvesFan wrote:I think the Wolves -baring a postseason disaster- run it back and go over the second apron for another year. I think there will be a lot of talk about a new arena next year when Marc/ARod take over so they are going to want to field the best team possible. I see Monte and Kyle resigning. Much like Naz last year, if Minnesota didn't think they could bring Kyle back, they would have traded him.

24-24 roster
Conley, Edwards, Gobert, Towns, McDaniels, Monte, NAZ, NAW, Miller, Anderson. Then, add in first round pick, second round pick, either Clark (if he looks good in summer league) or Garza (if he signed standard deal this week) and my min FA prediction - Taurean Prince. Guys liked him in the locker room and he may take less to return to Minnesota.

Go over the second apron next season and then get back under through KAT summer 25 trade or potential Rudy renegotiation of his contract.


I like and agree with some of this. But I do feel there things to talk about/address.

1. Even if we convert Garza (no buyout for Morris,) I don’t think we keep him next year. He cannot be a two way again, and I don’t see us giving him a roster spot. We will most definitely stay at 14 next year. If we bring back Kyle and Monte that is 12. Then you get a first round pick and you are at 13. Our 14 spot will be a win now player. You suggested Taurean Prince.

2. Prince is unlikely to return to Minnesota. He would be at best our 10th man. The Lakers have him as a sometimes starter who sometimes plays a 6-8 role. Maybe he stays, or maybe they inform him his role will diminish and he leaves. But either way, he is good enough to make 5-7 somewhere.

3. I read that even though Kyle only played 2 years here, if he signs for a 3rd, then is traded, the bird rights survive the trade and vest. So if Kyle takes a 10/10 team or player option, then whoever we trade him to will have bird rights. This is a unique opportunity to get a TPE that functions like an MLE. If we extend him this month or early next month we will be in good shape to do that. If not, we resign him and trade him next February, and then we have 10 million TPE to use on anyone we want in the buyout market or to trade and absorb the salary.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#36 » by shrink » Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:42 pm

winforlose wrote:While that cannot be done, we can do a modified sign and trade for Kyle. We either extend him now or resign him in the off season. With his new deal his bird rights vest in case of trade. So we move him either before or during the season (at or around the deadline,) and we get all of his money as either trade return or as a TPE. Depending on the timing the TPE could be used as an MLE on any waived player, but it’s better value is before the season. We could sign someone for 10 to 11 million as long as we are willing to pay the tax. Or, we could sign two players (Shake and Troy style,) and break Kyle into two contracts to help fill out the team.

(I lost a long post before I was able to post it, so I’ll try to hit those ideas as quickly as I can still remember them!)

While I have generally just assumed Kyle Anderson would be gone after this season, this idea is a possibility for future trade flexibility. We can’t extend Anderson’s two year contract, but we could sign him this summer using his Early Bird rights. He certainly can’t expect a raise of 175% over his last year, so Early Bird limitations wouldn’t hinder us.

I would also note that the price here is just money. Whether we signed Anderson or not, we’re likely going over the second apron, so we would face those second apron restrictions either way. It’s just more money. And some teams have paid out contracts to keep players around as disposable salary-matching pieces for future trades. LAC does this all the time, waiting for superstars (and it worked!) but Ballmer doesn’t care about money. If NYK hadn't been able to find a trade for Fournier, they were likely going to pick up his $19 mil option for future trades, even though they don’t play him.

But it is a LOT of money. It’s hard to gauge what Anderson’s next contract will be, and the bulk of his valuation for a future contract will come down to the rest of this season and the playoffs. But as an example, let me say we signed him for $8 mil, and we were already $25 mil over the $172 projected lux threshold. That boils down to

$5 mil salary
$18.75 lux taxes (3.75 multiplier)
$3 mil additional salary (to get to $8)
$12.75 lux taxes (4.25 multiplier)
—————————————————————-
$39.5 mil dollars to sign an $8 mil player

Now, as we all know, lux taxes aren’t accrued until the end of the season, so if MIN traded Anderson into someone’s cap space, the $39.5 mil hit disappears. But as you can see, using any or all of that money for other players is very expensive, so they need to be critical to winning. I should also note that new rules require teams to get their payroll up to the minimum by the start of the season, so unlike previous seasons, there isn’t a lot of cap space floating around at the deadline as an escape hatch. Still, signing Anderson creates a little GN flexibility that will be lost once the season begins, and we’re stuck at high salaries for 2+ years.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#37 » by winforlose » Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:50 pm

shrink wrote:
winforlose wrote:While that cannot be done, we can do a modified sign and trade for Kyle. We either extend him now or resign him in the off season. With his new deal his bird rights vest in case of trade. So we move him either before or during the season (at or around the deadline,) and we get all of his money as either trade return or as a TPE. Depending on the timing the TPE could be used as an MLE on any waived player, but it’s better value is before the season. We could sign someone for 10 to 11 million as long as we are willing to pay the tax. Or, we could sign two players (Shake and Troy style,) and break Kyle into two contracts to help fill out the team.

(I lost a long post before I was able to post it, so I’ll try to hit those ideas as quickly as I can still remember them!)

While I have generally just assumed Kyle Anderson would be gone after this season, this idea is a possibility for future trade flexibility. We can’t extend Anderson’s two year contract, but we could sign him this summer using his Early Bird rights. He certainly can’t expect a raise of 175% over his last year, so Early Bird limitations wouldn’t hinder us.

I would also note that the price here is just money. Whether we signed Anderson or not, we’re likely going over the second apron, so we would face those second apron restrictions either way. It’s just more money. And some teams have paid out contracts to keep players around as disposable salary-matching pieces for future trades. LAC does this all the time, waiting for superstars (and it worked!) but Ballmer doesn’t care about money. If NYK hadn't been able to find a trade for Fournier, they were likely going to pick up his $19 mil option for future trades, even though they don’t play him.

But it is a LOT of money. It’s hard to gauge what Anderson’s next contract will be, and the bulk of his valuation for a future contract will come down to the rest of this season and the playoffs. But as an example, let me say we signed him for $8 mil, and we were already $25 mil over the $172 projected lux threshold. That boils down to

$5 mil salary
$18.75 lux taxes (3.75 multiplier)
$3 mil additional salary (to get to $8)
$12.75 lux taxes (4.25 multiplier)
—————————————————————-
$39.5 mil dollars to sign an $8 mil player

Now, as we all know, lux taxes aren’t accrued until the end of the season, so if MIN traded Anderson into someone’s cap space, the $39.5 mil hit disappears. But as you can see, using any or all of that money for other players is very expensive, so they need to be critical to winning. I should also note that new rules require teams to get their payroll up to the minimum by the start of the season, so unlike previous seasons, there isn’t a lot of cap space floating around at the deadline as an escape hatch. Still, signing Anderson creates a little flexibility that will likely be lost once the season begins, and we’re stuck at high salaries for the next 2+ years.


Love it, but need to add a few things.

1. Kyle will want to resign even ahead of a trade because of bird rights. We could sign him for 8, but I think we inflate that to 10 or 11 because the trade market will still exist at that higher number.

2. The Wolves don’t get a lot of chances to improve, this money is the last big one for a while. It might not be ideal in terms of cost to ownership, but the better we do the more money they make.

3. This is the super tax model. We saw it with the KD for Dlo trade. GAW wanted a high salary slot. This is what we were talking about with Dlo in the trade or extend and if we extend how much can we pay and keep his contract tradable. It is a brave new world at this payroll, and we need to adapt to that.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#38 » by TimberKat » Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:57 pm

As much as I don't like KA because his shooting, I think Finch's system needs a couple connective tissues. We got Conley but will need either Morris (Monte) or KA back next year. At the moment, I don't see other guys step up for that role yet.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#39 » by winforlose » Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:30 pm

TimberKat wrote:As much as I don't like KA because his shooting, I think Finch's system needs a couple connective tissues. We got Conley but will need either Morris (Monte) or KA back next year. At the moment, I don't see other guys step up for that role yet.


Monte Morris is in our long term plans 100%. TC drafted him, loves him, was pursing him in the offseason, pursued and acquired him during the season, and I expect him to be our PGOF. As for Kyle, we obviously will need a plan for the TPE or the trade because TPEs don’t carry over if you are in the 2nd apron (which we are.) It will be a use it or lose it next year.
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Re: Off-season 2024 

Post#40 » by Movics » Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:12 am

I thought it was a good rundown of why the new ownership is more than willing to pay luxury tax
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