GT#39: Atlanta @ BROOKLYN - 1/18 - 7:30pm on YES Network

[PetroNet]

You're ignorant. Go back to NetsDaily.

I'm rolling over reading he can't score on tough bigs. Kevin Garnett is soft, I guess. Same with Perkins and Ibaka.

Whatever, you're not worth my time.

yea, shocker he got banned over there huh?

[PetroNet]

Blatche should be our sixth man.

He's our most talented sub but i'm not sure thats a good thing . I also want a wing that can get us points on a more consistent bases. KeBo on most night is our best guard/wing of the bench and i don't think thats a good thing.

Blatche is very good when the ball doesnt go through him and when he gets the ball, amkes 1 move, and goes to the rim.

when he takes multiple dribbles it usualyl leads to a turnover or a terrible fade away shot late in the clock.

i dont think its a suprise he played he best when brook was out and he was starting and became the 3rd/4th option

[PetroNet]

What metrics do you speak of? Come strong boy because i know what i am talking about.

Well he is 4th in the NBA in PER (behind only Lebron, Durant, Paul, and Kobe). There is him leading the entire NBA in points in the paint(not bad for a soft scrub who cant handle physicality).

Of course i cannot prove what i am saying.

because their arent stats to backup extreme hater bias glasses

The box score says he shot 52% vs Noah. That does not tell me Lopez dominated offensively. It tells me he shot 52% in a game vs the Bulls. See what i am doing?

what you need to do is rewatch that bulls game... or go through the game possesion log and realize that almost all of those points came against noah. then realize how horribly we looked when brook went to the bench. or realize how we lost that game because with 3 minutes left brook reached his minutes restriction, avery pulled him, and we blew a 6 point lead with under 2 minutes to go(thanks impart to a blatche turnover that led to a game tying bucket).

[NyCeEvO]

The biggest takeaway from this game should not have been/be discussion of Lopez' "softness", especially considering that he did a pretty good job in the times that he had the ball.

What we should be talking about is what VC4P suggested in the opening pages of this thread. This game should have been a good indicator of who we are as a team.

We were going up against an ATL team that blew us out on Wednesday without Josh Smith and we come out with this type of effort in Brooklyn when they don't even have Al Horford.

I've seen a number of us say we don't want to face CHI (esp. with Rose back), ATL, IND (w/ Granger back) in the first round.

Well, if that's true that means we obviously don't want to see MIA (and possibly NYK if they're operating on all cylinders).

If we're worried about beating 4-5 teams in our conference in the playoffs, then that legitimately means we're not a contender and the front office needs to seriously evaluate the construction of this team.

We have the 2nd highest payroll in the league but it's clear that our talent level per dollar value isn't as high as it should be.

The thing that worries me is that JJ is 31 and Wallace is 30. Their best days are behind them. If they are at their peak playing ability (which they are imo), then we're in serious trouble for the rest of their contracts.

We're extremely limited in our assets but if we're seriously looking to the future and have a desire to get better than our current construction, we need to seriously consider looking at what we need to do to actually contend.

If there are any deals that allow us to get under the luxury tax level, I think you need to do them just for the sake of making yourself available for any possible S&Ts.

If there are any deals for legit superstars, you gotta look into them.

The 7 game winning streak was nice, but there really wasn't a time throughout that stretch where I thought "Wow, we're a dominant team." While we should expect some growth from within, I think we can all tell that we're kinda capped at as a tough 2nd round out or ECF if we get superhot down the stretch.

Proky's return on his investment isn't as good as it should be with the amount of money he's spending and I'm really starting to fear that things won't get better as the next few years go on (since JJ & Wallace are already at their peak or a little past it) and we'll just be stuck unless we make big changes.

[PetroNet]

I agree with some of that... especially the effort being pathetic after they just embarassed us in a game where we showed 0 heart and effort. I really think we need to bring in some leadership to this team. even if its a rotational player we need someone to bark at these guys off the court, in practice, from the bench, and on the court.

Right now we have wallace who leads only by example and is hurt too often. he never really speaks or gets in guys faces other then calling them out after the bucks game.

As far as wallace/JJ i think johnson should easily be able to maintain this level of play for the next 3 years. He is in great shape, not injury prone, and his game doesnt rely at all on athleticism. he isnt likely going to shrink or get weaker anytime soon.

Wallace, obviously, different story.

[NyCeEvO]

^^I agree.

I have a much higher concern about Wallace than I do about JJ.

If Rudy Gay is available and Wallace+Brooks/Tele+1stRd pick can get it done, I think you have to do it for the sake of the franchise for the next 2-3 years.

It at least gives us the potential to grow into a better team.

[PetroNet]

^^I agree.

I have a much higher concern about Wallace than I do about JJ.

If Rudy Gay is available and Wallace+Brooks/Tele+1stRd pick can get it done, I think you have to do it for the sake of the franchise for the next 2-3 years.

It at least gives us the potential to grow into a better team.

absolutely... im a rudy gay fan. not sure why he gets so much hate.... although i guess like JJ it has alot to do with what he is paid.

he is a pretty good 2 way player.

[MGrand15]

Guys, no one is trading for Wallace's terrible contract. I love him but he is way overpaid ESPECIALLY the Grizzlies who want to save money and need shooters.

There was no point in the 7 game where you thought we were a dominant team? I'm not sure what you want. We handled Indiana and Toronto, two hot teams. We blew out OKC, Philly, PHX, and Sacramento. The streak included a stretch of 3 straight 20 point wins. We lost a game on the back end of a back to back after playing 4 games in 6 nights - to a team that was fired up after being embarrassed - now we bounced back and comfortably beat them. ATL is a pretty damn good team too.

I'm not saying we're ready for a title but wins over ATL, Indy, OKC and a hot Toronto team is a damn good stretch. No reason to panic especially since PJ has shown willingness to tinker with his rotations.

[DarkXaero]

I was about to say the same about Wallace, about how he is slowly becoming a big concern. There is no doubt that his intangibles, leadership, and on court hustle is very valuable, but his play aside from that is a major concern. For all his reputation as a top NBA defender, he hasn't even been average defensively (statistically). Offensively, we all know about his lack of shooting ability, but that was always expected. However, what concerns me, is how bad he has gotten at finishing at the rim. He used to be really good, and I'm not sure if this even has to do with athletic decline, because he is still pretty athletic and can get to the basket. But he just keeps blowing these layups that you expect him to make. I'm not really sure why he can't finish well anymore.

I'm all for trading him for Rudy Gay now, if possible. Even though Rudy is highly overpaid and having a pretty crappy season, he is still young, very athletic, a much better shooter, and better defender (statistically). The problem with Rudy is his usage rate, inefficiency, and some awful shot selection. But I would still rather have those problems than the problems we have with Wallace now.

[Paradise]

He just came off a bad injury. He isn't looking at drawing contact on the ribs and that equals poor layups around contact. That's why I am not happy he just started playing again instead of giving it a few extra days of rest.

[DarkXaero]

He just came off a bad injury. He isn't looking at drawing contact on the ribs and that equals poor layups around contact. That's why I am not happy he just started playing again instead of giving it a few extra days of rest.

It has been the case all season, his finishing has been poor the entire season so far. Has he been injured all season?

[NyCeEvO]

The problem is that 1/2 the time Crash will be injured because he's an active player.

Considering that he's 30, it's only a matter of time before the injuries 1) start cutting into his athletic ability 2) take a longer time for him to recover.

The fact that he does get injured so often is part of the concern and a valid reason to trade him.

[Paradise]

He just came off a bad injury. He isn't looking at drawing contact on the ribs and that equals poor layups around contact. That's why I am not happy he just started playing again instead of giving it a few extra days of rest.

It has been the case all season, his finishing has been poor the entire season so far. Has he been injured all season?

2012: 56% at the rim
2011: 59% at the rim
2010: 61% at the rim
2009: 58% at the rim
2008: 55% at the rim
2007: 57% at the rim
2006: 58% at the rim
2004: 59% at the rim

He must have been on the decline since 2004.

Also some outside perspective:

Melo at the rim: 53%
Gay at the rim: 58%

[Glory Road]

Wait...Lopez has been the most important cog on this team all season long and has frankly been one of the best big men in the NBA PERIOD this season...why is someone trying to kick dirt on him?

I'm more upset that we're not in 2nd place overall. Keep your eyes on the ball, gentlemen.

That was a tough game last night. Atlanta isn't a team I want to play in the first round.

I love our center combo. I hope King and Marks already have a plan in place to retain Blatche's services because that kid is a legit baller when his mind is in the right place. I love the versatility, it's a shame we can't play him and Brook at the same time.

I am not kicking dirt on him. Nets fans can be so ridiculous.

I acknowledge he is our most consistent player as well as the fact that he leads the league in points in the paint and whatever other mindless stats you wanna throw in. I never deny his stats.

Just because i am saying that he struggles against all the centers he will meet in the playoffs does not mean i think he is useless or that he is not doing well now.

You guys can say oh he outscored Garnett. However Garnett had the bigger impact in the game overall and when the playoffs come he will do what he always does. Lopez might get his 18pts here and there but can we give him the ball in the 4th and tell him to get us the win vs Garnett? GTFOH hell no!

Can we give him the ball in the post vs Hibbert in the 4th? Nope. We all saw how that ended. He better hope his shot is falling

Sanders? Clowned him twice this season already and i am not talking about ppg here

Bosh? Lopez can actually play Bosh really well but Miami's athleticism and quickness bothers Brook very much. He sucks vs the Heat

Chandler? Already clowned Brook this year multiple times.

The point is that you guys act like Lopez will be a guy we can go to in the playoffs and expect him to dominate. You guys keep saying he destroys his opposition. The only players i have seen him "destroy" are Glen Davis. To me destroy someone is what Howard did to Sanders the other day. Just unstoppable to the points that you HAVE to foul him. Went to him and every time he got his points inside.

[Glory Road]

As far as your guy's Lopez argument, Lopez WAS getting position and CALLING for the ball and not getting it the whole first half and at times in the second half.

I was at the game and I physically saw Lopez calling for the ball only to see Joe Johnson take a dumb shot or Deron make a dumb pass. It happened time and time again.

Our offense NEEDS to go through Lopez. Give him the ball and make him score in the post until someone wants to do something about it. Then this will open up spacing for Johnson and Deron to get better looks.

That is when we play our best. Avery never got that. PJ kind of gets it, but not enough.

I frankly think that Brook is more effective when he gets the ball on the move. He can't be defended in catch and shoot situations going towards the rim.

Agree

[Glory Road]

The thing with Lopez is that against guys like Zaza frikin Pachulia and a smaller Josh Smith, it's inexcusable that we refuse to go to him down low in the post, especially when we only made a mini-run in the last game when we decided to use him.

But as others have pointed out, guys with legitimate length and size to bother Lopez can give him serious issues, such as Hibbert (was shutting down Lopez until he stepped out and started hitting midrange jumpers), Chandler (imo, Chandler's embarrassed him both times they've played), Noah (I don't think Brook played well in their last matchup), and Garnett (Lopez was awesome in the first matchup, but a lot of his baskets came off D-Will's creation; in the last 2 matchups, he's been held in check). But there's a consistent theme here: these are the ELITE defenders in the league, some of the best post defenders around. So yeah, against these guys, he has trouble scoring in the post on ISOs, but so does everyone else in the NBA.

In those situations, it's a coaching issue. It's up to the coach to recognize matchups that Lopez can exploit. Against anyone but the very best, you can give the ball to Lopez and expect him to do reasonably well. In situations like the upcoming Knicks game, where he'll be going up against the defending DPOY who has had Lopez's number the last two times they've played, while Deron is going to be guarded by old-ass Kidd and old-ass Prigioni, the offense should not revolve around Lopez in the post and should be kept in Deron's hands. Give Lopez some touches if he's switched onto by Stat, or if Chandler is in potential foul trouble and can't be as aggressive, but other than that, use him as a finisher. I agree that when he's on the move and gets the ball in a position to score, he's at his best.

I agree that it might be a coaching issue and i think Carlisemo did that vs the Hawks. I notice he never ran post ups for Brook or isolations for him. That worked out very badly for the Nets the last game because Lopez sucks when isolated vs bigs like Zaza and those damn speedy guards were just getting those misses and running which hurt bad.

If he had run more plays for post ups or isolations for Lopez we would have lost imo

[Glory Road]

It's not reaching when it's truth. The guy is soft. He is going to get killed in the playoffs.

You guys think these coaches who are payed to do what they do failed to see what you guys see? Brook was getting his points off other players' plays. He is not a player you can dump the ball in to and expect points when he is matched up vs bigs that know how to defend him.

he isnt? it seems like his entire career he has been getting the ball iso down low and scoring on his man. but hey, whats 4 years of evidence vs. your biased opinion, right

Mostly because i do not think he is going to be getting these calls in the playoffs.

right, cause the league has some huge conspiracy where they give lopez 8 or 10 trips to the FT line on phantom calls and in the playoffs they will stop said conspiracy. its not like lopez gets hacked all the time after getting the defender off balance or in a bad spot.

lopez also NEVER makes shots, 90% of his points come on FTA

More like they knew the guy was just gonna botch it like last game and they would get killed in transition because he could not out muscle his defender.

"botch it like last game"?

"last game"

22 points on 10-14 shooting (only 2 points on phantom call free throws!) and 9 rebounds.

maybe by "botching it" you meant all the turnovers he had... because he did have 1 turnover.

oh i forgot, stats dont matter. of brooks 22 points, 20 came on 20 foot jumpers set up by teammates and the other 2 were on ft's from phantom league conspiracy calls... but im sure the shot chart will reflect this.

You are completely ignoring what i am pointing out and this discussion with you has ceased to be productive. Again i have never denied that Brook can get his points. If you cannot understand that there is a difference between dominating players and scoring on their team than i don't know how we can continue to discuss this.

You keep arguing points i have not argued against.

If i am discussing the playoffs then what the heck does it matter what he is scoring through the season in the paint? He will not be seeing Glen Davis in the playoffs.

He can do a lot of damage off of cuts and other plays come off other players breaking down the D.

Player X scored 22pts vs team Y who player Z plays for

therefore player X dominated player Z

The argument is silly. Anyone that watches the games and is unbiased can see how Lopez struggles vs great defensive bigs or bigs his size

Can he still get his 18 through the game in a 7 game series off of plays from Deron or JJ? Sure. Can he take over a game and dominate his opposition? Nope. Not unless he is defended by a guard (dramatization)

[Glory Road]

Lopez has controlled the game maybe once or twice in those games. When he's able to string together dominating performances against the same team this season, I'll start to have more faith but in a situation where 7 games he will have to be guarded by KG, Chandler, Noah, Bosh does not excite me at all unless Joe is hot, Deron is hot and they are able to get him easy pick and rolls.

Lopez combined numbers against those Teams/Players this season:
[Bos x3, NYK x2, Mia x1, Chi x1]

16.1 Points
8.9 Rebounds
51% FG Percentage
1.0 Turnovers
2.2 Blocks

He has done pretty well against those teams... other then a bad showing in miami very early on (8 points 7 rebounds on 4-8 shooting) in a game we got blown out in and no one played well, he has been excellent vs those teams.

Again with numbers. You guys are so fascinated by pretty numbers, decimals, and percentages without understanding what those pretty symbols represent. Out of context stats do nothing to prove that Brook Lopez will dominate these players in a 7 game series. That is the problem with sports. You can use statistics to support an opinion but in the end there are too many things that are not shown by statistics.

There can be a vast difference between scoring points on a team and dominating game. I have seen Lopez do this vs lesser player. he can be unstoppable vs certain matchups. I have never seen him dominate Noah, or Chandler or Garnett, or Hibbert.

This week will be a good test for him. Three good defensive centers with two of them being top 5 centers. I hope Brook can show that he can man up and dominate these players

[Glory Road]

You're ignorant. Go back to NetsDaily.

I'm rolling over reading he can't score on tough bigs. Kevin Garnett is soft, I guess. Same with Perkins and Ibaka.

Whatever, you're not worth my time.

yea, shocker he got banned over there huh?

Says the guy that picked out an out of contest sentence and quoted it on his sig.

I got banned for calling out DWillofTheGodz

Nothing to do with ignorance

[Glory Road]

Well he is 4th in the NBA in PER (behind only Lebron, Durant, Paul, and Kobe). There is him leading the entire NBA in points in the paint(not bad for a soft scrub who cant handle physicality).


what you need to do is rewatch that bulls game... or go through the game possesion log and realize that almost all of those points came against noah. then realize how horribly we looked when brook went to the bench. or realize how we lost that game because with 3 minutes left brook reached his minutes restriction, avery pulled him, and we blew a 6 point lead with under 2 minutes to go(thanks impart to a blatche turnover that led to a game tying bucket).

PER is a flawed statistic that puts a large emphasis on offense which Lopez is good at.

I DID rewatch and Noah had by far the most impact of ANY player on either team. Cannot say the same for Lopez. Noah also frustrated Lopez and forced him into a lot of ugly shots.

Seems you put a lot of emphasis on ppg without proper understanding of how to put the stats into context