Nets/NO PG: Terrible Loss

[Prokorov]

I'd like the see Hollins completely abandon Jack and Deron - even if it means throwing less talent on the floor. Numbers wise it doesn't work. Hollins has acknowledged this. On paper, it doesn't work. Deron's not a 2. Jack can't play off the ball. Defensively and offensively - it's a mess. Atleast Brown/Bojan/AA give us size (or athleticism) and hustle. Don't know what more he has to see.

He's given up on Mason and Brook. It's time to do the same for Jack and DWill. I don't care if that means less time for DWill or Jack.

If Joe is going to be that lackadaisical on defense - we need to limit his minutes. He played well offensively but he's not James Harden or Kobe Bryant. 21 points on 17 shots, no FTs. I'm not sure I would trade that for all of the off-the-ball stuff he gave up yesterday. Ponxdexter and Cunningham KILLED him. The hammer plays and the offensive rebounds were destroying him. I'm hoping his defense is more focused if he's less tired about playing 34 minutes vs. 38-40

bojan is a negative player on the year basically regardless of who he plays with. Karasev even more so. We dont know on jack, and we have seen anderson go from being a positive to a negative once you up him to 30+ minutes on a nightly basis.

i think we have to give brown a shot, it is kind of our last hope at this point. the reality is we have the worst SG situation in the league other then maybe 1 or 2 teams actively trying to lose. We REALLY needed to add a shooter at the deadline

[MGrand15]

Jack and Deron playing together = blowout.

Every single time they step on the floor together they get crushed. I'm sick and tired of it. 500 minutes together and I can't think of a single positive moment with them on the floor. I don't care how bad the talent is at 2. It literally cannot be worse than Deron and Jack. In 470 minutes, the combo is -100. That's outrageously bad. I'd rather play a D-Leaguer at SG.

[Keith Van Horn]

Off the bench you bring in high energy and shooters, with Jack, Brown, and Bogs.

which one of those guys is the shooter?

Jack obviously is one, he can create his own shots and take people off the dribble.

Brown is not a shooter, but a constant threat to drive to the basket and run on breaks.

Bogs is a shooter too. Don't think he should be taking double digit amount of shots each game, but he can be a threat from long range when he is on.

If you're trying to say that they're not excellent shooters, then you're right. But Jack and Bogs are decent ones. But they're the best of what we have now and they should all be playing roles off the bench in limited time.

I think the biggest question we need to constantly be asking ourselves is if we're better with Plumlee or Lopez starting in the center. Not sure how I feel lately with Plumlee's lack of production, but I think Lopez just plays better off the bench.

i think that is completely irrelevant, their minutes wont really change regardless of who starts. lopez played 34 minutes last night, has routinely gotten 30 off the bench.

the biggest question is who on this team is going to make shots, right now the awnser is maybe joe until he breaks down again, and little after that.

Yeah, I guess it's not really a question then. You just sometimes start seeing Lopez play well then people will want him starting again. I think he's great off the bench and as a late game scorer. Let Joe, Thad, and Deron get us into a groove, then let Lopez feast afterwards.

I like the setup now with Lopez getting the lion's share of minutes off the bench in the first, then into the second. I don't like it when he's playing soft out there at the start of the game when other starters are taking him to the hoop and boxing him out.

We just need to keep Joe and Thad out there to start as our forwards to start as they're both capable scorers.

[Prokorov]

Off the bench you bring in high energy and shooters, with Jack, Brown, and Bogs.

which one of those guys is the shooter?

Jack obviously is one, he can create his own shots and take people off the dribble.

Brown is not a shooter, but a constant threat to drive to the basket and run on breaks.

Bogs is a shooter too. Don't think he should be taking double digit amount of shots each game, but he can be a threat from long range when he is on.

I would STRONGLY disagree with all of these.

Jack shoots 45% from the field, 25% from three with a 51.5 TS%. He is not a shooter. can he get in the lane and create offense? yes, but he is certainly not a shooter, especially if you are talking from range.

Brown is not a constant threat to drive to the basket. if he is, he certainly hasnt established that. on the break? sure. but that doesnt make him a half court threat and his lack of shooting compounds the overall shooting problem we have.

Bogs is certainly not a shooter. 41% from the field 30% from three. Last year in euroleague with a closer line he also shot 30% from three. im not sure how you could call him a shooter and he certainly is not reliable from 3.

you could make the argument none are good shooters, and you could almost say with complete certainty all of them are poor 3 point shooters

[Prokorov]

Jack and Deron playing together = blowout.

Every single time they step on the floor together they get crushed. I'm sick and tired of it. 500 minutes together and I can't think of a single positive moment with them on the floor. I don't care how bad the talent is at 2. It literally cannot be worse than Deron and Jack. In 470 minutes, the combo is -100. That's outrageously bad. I'd rather play a D-Leaguer at SG.

the way is see it Nets vs. a .500+ team = blowout.

also, we didnt get blown out last night. but none the less we likely will these next few games. and it doesnt have much to do with dwill or jack. if jack didnt play we still lose, if dwill didnt play we still lose. if both play but not together we still lose. they suck together, but we also arent good when they arent together. we have so many MASSIVLY negative 5-man lineups it is insane.

[CalamityX12]

I didn't see the game so I cant say certain things...

but why in the world didn't CJ get in the game? maybe he could be a difference maker or not, the guy played very well vs Denver and is DNP in the next game?

I can hack players n defend coaches but I will call out coaches. Hollins substitution patterns and lineups have been annoying for me for awhile and seeing CJ a DNP is once again a **** move on his part. Playing Jack n Dwill together where it clearly doesn't serve the best **** interest to the team is another flop. He's already stirring from Brook n Plumlee but now he wants to stay small?... we're a team of small ball you idiot!

CJ had a decent game vs a terrible team. while id like to see him more i dont think that "earns" him something.

he didnt play last night because joe was tearing it up for a stretch at PF and kept us in the game. then later in the game thad came in and kind of beasted at PF.

Joe/Thad were really our only 2 who played well last night. and both had like a long stretch where they went beastmode. im not sure you could have put CJ in for either the way it was going.

People are hating on Hollins.... but the fact is throwing the 59th pick in the draft out there doesnt cure all. and him playign well vs denver doesnt really indicate much. Playing jack and dwill isnt a great option... but as me and Mgrand15 pointed out when we discussed it in the other thread... neither is Dwill/Bogs, Dwill/Karasev, Dwill/Morris. Dwill/Brown might be better, hollins has tried options there, brown is now getting 30 minutes a night. it is easy to criticize jack/dwill lineups, but the reality is there is no good option as we dont have a good SG onthis roster(unless brown becomes one).

We arent a small ball team. we dont have the shooters. we can try, and he has, but we arent suited for that as much as last year. we might be able to go big, but as mentioned plumlee/brook havent been great together. but we also havent seen them with thad here either, maybe that works better?

the bottom line is we are just a really flawed team. We dont particualalry defend well anywhere. We dont shoot well. We dont have a gaurd or wing who can get to the FT line. our point gaurds are average at best. our bigs are inconsistent and dont mesh well.

we have 2 things that benefit us. we have size, and we now have some athletes who play hard.

CJ playing well in Denver, despite competition earned him more than a DNP. That's silly. Had Karasev or AA were killing it from 3 only to have a DNP next game, that's ok because it was Denver? CJ provided energy, hustle, defense, rim protection, athleticism and aggression where we won't get from Brook or outside of Mason. Markel is getting minutes but CJ couldn't?

Which then adds to the problems of this stupid small ball horsesh*t... not only do we not have the right players to go small, our "advantage" in size is limited since we're only operating one big at a time. CJ is not a god send but he was doing a very good impersonation of a Trob potential impact at the PF spot. Also the small ball lineup actually limits athletes who play hard in CJ n Young....

We need, IMO, to go back to a Dwill(or jack I don't give a f anymore), Brown, JJ, Young, PLumlee(someone who really needs to return to game form, may be hitting the sophomore slump). Brook, Jack, AA, CJ.... they can come off the bench, which on paper seems balanced.

[Prokorov]

CJ playing well in Denver, despite competition earned him more than a DNP. That's silly. Had Karasev or AA were killing it from 3 only to have a DNP next game, that's ok because it was Denver? CJ provided energy, hustle, defense, rim protection, athleticism and aggression where we won't get from Brook or outside of Mason. Markel is getting minutes but CJ couldn't?

First, lets put it in more perspective. he had 7 points and 5 rebounds in 10 minutes and we were up double digits when he came in already, with denver basically waiving the white flag. i love the hustle and energy, but its not like he played a ton of minutes and dropped a 20/20 game.

As far as markel, he plays a position where we dont have anyone else worth a damn. so it is alot easier for him to get minutes and a shot are real playing time (he also shows a TON more in denver then CJ playinf 40+ minutes and registering a double double with 4 or 5 blocks). As mentioned, Thad and Joe both played really well and both carried us for stretches at PF. We have legit options at PF between Joe(small) Thad or plumlee (big). we have ZERO options at SG. bogs is hurt, karasev has been awful and no one likes jacks/dwill at the 2. you cant ignore that part of it.

Which then adds to the problems of this stupid small ball horsesh*t... not only do we not have the right players to go small, our "advantage" in size is limited since we're only operating one big at a time. CJ is not a god send but he was doing a very good impersonation of a Trob potential impact at the PF spot. Also the small ball lineup actually limits athletes who play hard in CJ n Young....

ii dont really CJ what CJ has done to earn real minutes. im fine if he gets them, but he hasnt earned them anymore then thad or plumlee have. and Joe, as much as we both hate small ball, has statistically been by far our best PF on both ends.

[Trader_Joe]

I see your point as 2 years ago lopez was second i think to melo in first quarter points. but i dont think that is an issue this year. I also like lopez off the bench because he doesnt need to worry about the flow of the offense he can just go get his points and he has done really well off the bench.

BTW.. Lopez's numbers are pretty much identical if he starts or not.
His FG% is lower from the bench and his offensive rebounding higher (probably from his misses) otherwise I don't see a difference.