Nets/Dallas PG: Heavy D Dominates

[MGrand15]

Mason had 14 pts, 10rebs, 3 blocks.

Sorry, wasn't stat watching. Too busy watching the game live.

He made some obvious mistakes (missed rotations + dumb contested hook shots) but he played solid overall. Maybe those mistakes stuck out to you because they were bad and you were in the heat of the game? He actually made some big plays. The post up that led to a pass for Joe Johnson's 3 stuck out in my mind as a HUGE play.

[Trader_Joe]

16/8 on 7/12 FG shooting for Thaddeus. I can't believe we were actually debating he was a downgrade to KG at this stage of his career.

Of course Thad is better then KG. I think we were the few who were excited about the trade.

It's the same people who talk down Jack.

Jack shoots 6-11 last night and has 4 assist to 1 TO but half the post are about how Jack sucks.

Everything points to us being better with Deron on the court than with Jack.

Joe/Deron +2.3 Joe/Jack -8.7
Brook/Deron +1.1 Brook/Jack -11.9
AA/Dwill +1.3 AA/Jack -7.2

Jack is in:
-All 5 of our worst two man combinations
-All 7 of our worst three man combinations
-All 11 of our worst four man combinations
-All 11 of our worst five man combinations

With Jack on the court: ortg: 100.7 drtg: 109.3 -8.6
With Jack off the court: ortg 106.7 drtg: 102.8 +3.9

With Deron on the court: ortg: 105.4 drtg: 105.9 -.3
With Deron off the court: ortg: 100.9 drtg: 107.4 -6.6

Deron is declining, not the same guy he once was, but our team is MUCH better with him starting than with Jack. People want to see Jack as a spark plug when our offense is struggling, on about 20 minutes/night and not running the show.

And I don't think anyone was against the Thad Young trade.

Yup... and thank you for using TEAM stats (what matter) as opposed to individual stats. Also thank you for not using rather meaningless buzz words like "heart" in your argument.

+/- is very relevant IMO, especially when both have started, both have come off the bench, both play major minutes and both play with a wide variety of player combinations. I don't think it was a fluke that last night Deron was a +24 in 35 minutes, while Jack was a -3 in 31.

Also the team is simply so much better when Deron plays (not sure the numbers of when he starts vs. doesn't) and according to the numbers better when Jack doesn't. I think Jack can and has been an asset, but not when he's overplayed and takes PG time from D.Will. Hopefully Hollins will figure it out one of these days.

[MrDollarBills]

Mason had 14 pts, 10rebs, 3 blocks.

Sorry, wasn't stat watching. Too busy watching the game live.

I watched the same game that you did. I saw mistakes from him. I also saw him also being active and contributing towards a victory.

Honestly, either you were just upset about a few mistakes you saw live, or you have an agenda if you're dismissing a solid 14 10 and 3 statline from Mason

[F3LON]

I equated Thad's dunks to his ATHLETICISM and wondered whether he was declining or out of shape. I also acknowledged that considering he was playing for the Philly tank and Minnesota without Rubio - which had no PGs or spacing - he might be a better fit with our team. Never did I equal number of dunks to level of play.

Unlike you, I use a logical and balanced approach towards evaluating players - especially when I don't watch them play often.

He's been on 7 teams in 9 seasons because he's such an asset :lol That's almost as funny as you saying Jack's lineups get killed because he's only played good teams. Even though the sample size is GIANT at this point.

Jack is a fine scorer and a good teammate but he's clearly a flawed player. There's use for him on this team as a spark off the bench. But if he's our 1st option in crunch time and forcing Deron and Joe Johnson to take on the tougher defensive assignments - we're going to lose a lot. That's what happened yesterday and it's not the first time.

We lost yesterday?????


You want to talk about funny, how are we a sub .500 team and how did DWill lose his job if we are sooooo much better with him in the lineup?

We couldnt even give DWill away in a trade, that's how valuable he is. Jack is a flawed player as are 99% of the NBA. The difference is that he makes a salary relative to his skill.

DWill has had 3+ years to be our 1st option in crunch time and he has failed miserably. He picks and chooses when he is going to play hard. Pretty much all of the Knicks and Mavs games, whenever he plays Lin since Linsanity started vs him and a handful of random games. 80% of the time he is coasting through the season with a couldnt care less attitude. The fact its even a discussion as to who is the best PG on the team speaks to how big of a POS DWill is. He use to be considered the TOP PG in the NBA.

[Paradise]

You want to talk about funny, how are we a sub .500 team and how did DWill lose his job if we are sooooo much better with him in the lineup?

He never lost his job. Jack had a good showing when Deron was injured and once Deron returned, he continued to come off the bench. Were we a sub .500 team the last two seasons with Deron at the helm?

You are the only person who actually believes this Jack nonsense.

We couldnt even give DWill away in a trade, that's how valuable he is. Jack is a flawed player as are 99% of the NBA. The difference is that he makes a salary relative to his skill.

Deron has become an injury prone guard on max salary along with multiple years on his deal which is why nobody wants him without an asset attached. Jack is a JOURNEYMAN who has never had a real 'home' in this league and he is showing us why on a nightly basis. You are the one who keeps making his skills equal to a starting caliber guard and he is far from that.

DWill has had 3+ years to be our 1st option in crunch time and he has failed miserably. He picks and chooses when he is going to play hard. Pretty much all of the Knicks and Mavs games, whenever he plays Lin since Linsanity started vs him and a handful of random games. 80% of the time he is coasting through the season with a couldnt care less attitude. The fact its even a discussion as to who is the best PG on the team speaks to how big of a POS DWill is. He use to be considered the TOP PG in the NBA.

LOL The only one in a discussion about who the best PG on the team is YOU. Every stat suggests makes our team alot worse. Jack couldn't even lead our bench unit as we posted the worst bench stats in the league earlier in the season.

Also, Deron averaged 18/7 on a 49 win team. There IS NO discussion on who is clearly the best PG on the team and because Jack makes two clutch shots in two separate games doesn't put him in any discussion as some goddamn first option. The first option was always Joe Johnson since he's been here and Deron has always deferred to him like most PG do.

The reality is Deron is still our best player. The whole Jack/Deron combo wouldn't look so bad if he dominated on a regular basis but that doesn't excuse the ineptitude of Jack's IQ and his own flaws. Deron can't run the offense because Jack is a useless without the ball.

[jeff1624]

I just want to point out that the team throughout the season actually outscores the opposition when Jack is off the floor. They are a +35 without him... -244 with him. This isn't a 5 game sample either. This is damn near 4 months worth of basketball. It's clear that Deron at PG is the better option for this team. You can hate him for being a disappointment, for sulking, for not being worth his salary, etc. But you'd have to be blind and hard headed to say that jack has been better for the team when every metric proves otherwise.

[Dirk]

Great win by the Nets. I've got to give these guys some credit... whenever I see them, they never really look like they aren't trying. I see the bench involved. They care. As soon as I saw Carlisle was getting cute starting Barea... I had a bad feeling. Then of course, Deron Williams always turns back the clock in Dallas and explodes. He and Aldridge, both Dallas guys, just have tormented the Mavs through the years. Unbelievable that he was 1/22(!) from three before this game. Rondo actually had one of his better games(to start at least...) and still that play where he blew the layup that would cut the lead to 6 defines him. The guy has very little impact on the game and doesn't scare anyone.

This first game coming off a long road trip is always tough and against the Warriors no less. They're perfect to match up with your small lineup too. But after that there's a good sequence of games where again this team will have the chance to prove this isn't a fluke. I am not a big fan of such a small lineup since Lopez and Young are a bit redundant on the bench. I wonder if it wouldn't be more balanced to have Young starting. With that said, Joe Johnson despite always having carried the label of 'one of the worst contracts in the league', yet again showing his value, good rebounding numbers and always a mismatch on offense it seems.

[SpeedyG]

Mason had 14 pts, 10rebs, 3 blocks.

Sorry, wasn't stat watching. Too busy watching the game live.

I watched the same game that you did. I saw mistakes from him. I also saw him also being active and contributing towards a victory.

Honestly, either you were just upset about a few mistakes you saw live, or you have an agenda if you're dismissing a solid 14 10 and 3 statline from Mason

So what did I say that wasn't true?

Did he not...

turn the ball over or missed a shot because he wasn't ready to receive a pass?

Give Dirk too much cushion leaving to open basket after open basket?

Commit a stupid foul on Amare (where he basically mugged him, like a cat swiping at the ball several times)?

Did the same against Dirk that led to a 3pt play late in the game?

Missed half his free-throws?

I don't think he had a "solid" game. His rotations on defense sucked. He couldn't finish inside. When he did get fouled, he couldn't convert. Most of his rebounds were Evans/Humphries like. He still doesn't box out. He tried to force a couple of offensive plays which were essentially turnovers because he didn't really have a go to move.

The guy's defense was so horrible that we went with 6'8 Thad Young on Dirk for the last two mins or so of the game.

[MrDollarBills]

Yeah, he made mistakes, missed FTs, and his play was not perfect He's prone to stuff like that, as a young player. Yet...I don't discount the fact that he contributed an efficient 14pts, 10rebs, 3 blocks, an efficient 5-8 from the field(oh!!! but he couldn't finish inside) from the field, being a +17 plus/minus in a much needed victory either...because that would be petty, silly, and utterly short sighted.

[Prokorov]

That being said. Deron is a max contract player. if he allows a career journeyman to get more touches than him, that's an indictment on DERON.

Yea, we need tos top giving deron a pass because jack is on the floor with him. is that a good pairing? no. does hollins need to cut it down bigtime now that markel has shown flashes of being a solid role player at SG? yes.

But there is ZERO reason why deron isnt MUCH more effective then he is in those instances. it is still basketball. He can still make those wide open 3's he has been bricking. He can still drive past a gaurd now and then. He isnt being completely frozen out, he still gets touches, he needs to do more with them.

Also, id disagree BIGTIME that we dont need jack down the stretch in crunch time. Teams have shown they arent going to let joe beat them late, and jack has been the only other guy showing a willingness to take(and make) big shots.

[Prokorov]

I just want to point out that the team throughout the season actually outscores the opposition when Jack is off the floor. They are a +35 without him... -244 with him. This isn't a 5 game sample either. This is damn near 4 months worth of basketball. It's clear that Deron at PG is the better option for this team. You can hate him for being a disappointment, for sulking, for not being worth his salary, etc. But you'd have to be blind and hard headed to say that jack has been better for the team when every metric proves otherwise.

jack needs to not play 30-40 minutes. that is clear. i like him starting because i think the offense flows better and gets off to better starts with him vs. dwill. Dwill usually doesnt get on a role early, and is usually super passive early. i think dwill off the bench is a much better version of dwill.

Dwill needs to get starters minutes off the bench in a manu type role.

jack needs to start, play 25 minutes, and play 12 minutes with dwill isntead of 24. at least while markel is showing he can defend his position which he has so far.

But lets not get carried away, while we are better with dwill onthe floor vs. jack, we are still a bad team with dwill on the floor. the issue ive had with this argument has been:

1) we arent some legit playoff team with dwill playing over jack, we still have MAJOR issues

2) there is no alternative to Dwill/Jack that is any better (Markel is now the last hope and he might be so fingers crossed)

[SpeedyG]

Yeah, he made mistakes, missed FTs, and his play was not perfect He's prone to stuff like that, as a young player. Yet...I don't discount the fact that he contributed an efficient 14pts, 10rebs, 3 blocks, an efficient 5-8 from the field(oh!!! but he couldn't finish inside) from the field, being a +17 plus/minus in a much needed victory either...because that would be petty, silly, and utterly short sighted.

Nice stat line. Great fantasy numbers.

I can count many games by Hump where he notched at least 14/10/3, but it was actually bad play on the court.

[Prokorov]

Yeah, he made mistakes, missed FTs, and his play was not perfect He's prone to stuff like that, as a young player. Yet...I don't discount the fact that he contributed an efficient 14pts, 10rebs, 3 blocks, an efficient 5-8 from the field(oh!!! but he couldn't finish inside) from the field, being a +17 plus/minus in a much needed victory either...because that would be petty, silly, and utterly short sighted.

Nice stat line. Great fantasy numbers.

I can count many games by Hump where he notched at least 14/10/3, but it was actually bad play on the court.

and you cant count any time lopez had empty numbers and eas a negative impact in spite of them?

Plumlee was good vs the mavs, and 100% a positive impact in that game. a couple turnovers and botched lay in dont change that

[SpeedyG]

Yeah, he made mistakes, missed FTs, and his play was not perfect He's prone to stuff like that, as a young player. Yet...I don't discount the fact that he contributed an efficient 14pts, 10rebs, 3 blocks, an efficient 5-8 from the field(oh!!! but he couldn't finish inside) from the field, being a +17 plus/minus in a much needed victory either...because that would be petty, silly, and utterly short sighted.

Nice stat line. Great fantasy numbers.

I can count many games by Hump where he notched at least 14/10/3, but it was actually bad play on the court.

and you cant count any time lopez had empty numbers and eas a negative impact in spite of them?

Plumlee was good vs the mavs, and 100% a positive impact in that game. a couple turnovers and botched lay in dont change that

This isn't even about Lopez (why are you even bringing him up? Agenda much?). He was terrible against Dallas. Mason played because Lopez and Jordan would be bad match-ups against Dirk. So despite his mistakes, Lionel stuck with him. But when the Mavs cut the lead down to 5 with 5 mins left in the game, Lionel couldn't stick with Mason anymore and ran with Thad Young against Dirk.