The Official Andrea Bargnani Thread

Paradise · Post #401 » by **Paradise** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:25 pm

So, according to that logic. Garnett was wide open every time since he shot long twos or LMA is left open too. Come on now.

It's the same exact percentage KG brought to the Nets and same percentage that Blatche brought to the table. Like him or not, that is the key area that Bargnani can bring to the table. It's undoubtedly an asset that can open up shots on the perimeter for Ellington and others.

Net Sentence · Post #402 » by **Net Sentence** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:43 pm

Paradise wrote:So, according to that logic. Garnett was wide open every time since he shot long twos or LMA is left open too. Come on now.

It's the same exact percentage KG brought to the Nets and same percentage that Blatche brought to the table. Like him or not, that is the key area that Bargnani can bring to the table. It's undoubtedly an asset that can open up shots on the perimeter for Ellington and others.

This^

Analytics are ruining basketball. The whole 50% FG = 33% 3pt shooting is a flawed concept.

For one, it doesnt take into account FTs or just drawing fouls in general. You are much more likely to get fouled the closer to the rim you get. I would love to see the TS% numbers on each with FT attempts created from each shot factored in. I would also like to see the 2nd chance points created from the misses of each type of shot. Im just guessing but I bet shots missed closer to the rim are more likely to be putbacks then 3pters.

The other negative about that equation is that it doesnt show what happens on defense. I would much rather have my opponent take the ball out of the net then to get a long rebound from a missed 3pter, especially with our roster. If you are the Rockets you can afford to take a ton of 3s because Dwight is one of the best bigs in the NBA at getting up and down the court and can chase down a lot of wings. Lopez on the other hand is terrible and gets outrun by most centers let alone chasing down a wing. That is why Im more concerned with overall FG%. The less sprinting Lopez has to do, the better our chances are to win.

Prokorov · Post #403 » by **Prokorov** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:58 pm

Net Sentence wrote:

Typical Proky response. Way to move the goalpost again. Somehow long 2s morphed into all 2s.

more like your typical spin and putting worst in my mouth. you said no coahc would give a team open twos all game. i said they would welcome it. since if you took long 2s all game at 45% you would be horrible offensively.

there are no if/ands/ or butts around it. if you are taking longs twos, especially at 45%, you are taking bad shots. the idea is to take shots closer to the rim, and if you arent, to take 3s. if you dont beleive in the new analytic way of thinking thats fine, but if you do, then it cant be ignore that long 2s are horrible shots.

Repeat after me, " As a Mirza apologist, I solemnly swear to switch any argument in reference to him to somehow include is 13-14 numbers. So help me God."

look if you want to discuss the two players, im game. if you are just going to troll look elsewhere. would a mirza aplolgist call mirza a giant disappointment who has wasted every chance he has had with the nets? because thats what ive said time and time again. i had high hopes for mirza when we signed him, but im glad he is gone, because he was pretty bad for us during an era where we desperately needed PF help.

that said, if you cant understand why using a sample size of 29 games in an injury plagued year to a guy with 40 games in an injury plagued year then it isnt worth discussing

large sample > small sample during injury ridden seasons

Your definition of smart differs from mine. Your metric values missed shots over made ones. I want players to make shots they are capable of actually making. I know it's a radical concept. The worst shot in the game is a missed shot. A missed 3 pointer isnt worth more then a made 2 pointer. I dont want players to shoot below average % (32.1%) just because it's a 3.

lower percentages dont mean worse production if your taking 3s vs. taking 2s. thats why we have TS% and points per possession.

going 32/100 from (32%) = 96 points
going 45/100 from 2 (45%) = 90 points

its basic math. shooting 32% on 3s is slightly better then shooting 45% on long 2s.

again, you can have a grown up disucssion, or you can troll.

I love when someone is an apologist and doesnt know. It's the same everytime,"Im not a (DWill, Mirza, Whoever) apologist but everything I say from here on will be apologizing for them". Nothing you say matters until after that "but". I never see you reference Lopez's career numbers for some reason.

it isnt being an apologist to defend someone against non-sensical comments. if someone is going to call williams one of the worst PGs in the NBA and clearly worst the jack, and itsnt "being an apologist" to say that jack might be a downgrade from williams. but you spin that into people saying dwill is some good players.

meanwhile you can pump up career nobodies like jack and bagani, but if someone says anythign even remotely positive about dwill or mirza, they are an apologist.

it is even more comical considering no one here other then dwill of the gods has been harder on mirza then i have.

I reference lopez career and all-star season numbers all the time. in fact, lopez career numbers and most recent full seasons are what i reference most often. again, if you want to have a real discussion thats fine, if you are going to troll me, move on.

Prokorov · Post #404 » by **Prokorov** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:00 pm

Paradise wrote:So, according to that logic. Garnett was wide open every time since he shot long twos or LMA is left open too. Come on now.

It's the same exact percentage KG brought to the Nets and same percentage that Blatche brought to the table. Like him or not, that is the key area that Bargnani can bring to the table. It's undoubtedly an asset that can open up shots on the perimeter for Ellington and others.

take a look at film of KG as net. one thing that 90% of his longs 2-pointer/long jump shots have in common. they are wide open and the defense is giving us that shot. same with brook. same with thad.

blatche is a poor comparison, he didnt just take long 2s. a nd when he took them, everyone here killed him. he went to the hoop quote a bit, and everyone agreed that "good blatche" played near the rim while "bad blatche" was taking YOLO jumpers and step backs.

long 2s arent going to open up anything. 3s will.

Prokorov · Post #405 » by **Prokorov** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:02 pm

kerry kittles wrote:
Prokorov wrote:[
1) im not a mirza apologist, im not a big fan and wanted him gone. i know you are newer to this board, but im one of his biggest critics. me thing bargani is trash doesnt mean i think mirza is good

He is the return of DWilloftheGods, F3lon - the biggest Mirza hater in the world. Know who you're arguing with Prok.

makes sense. thanks for pointing out thats him. ill move on

Net Sentence · Post #406 » by **Net Sentence** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:12 pm

Prokorov wrote:
Paradise wrote:So, according to that logic. Garnett was wide open every time since he shot long twos or LMA is left open too. Come on now.

It's the same exact percentage KG brought to the Nets and same percentage that Blatche brought to the table. Like him or not, that is the key area that Bargnani can bring to the table. It's undoubtedly an asset that can open up shots on the perimeter for Ellington and others.

take a look at film of KG as net. one thing that 90% of his longs 2-pointer/long jump shots have in common. they are wide open and the defense is giving us that shot. same with brook. same with thad.

blatche is a poor comparison, he didnt just take long 2s. a nd when he took them, everyone here killed him. he went to the hoop quote a bit, and everyone agreed that "good blatche" played near the rim while "bad blatche" was taking YOLO jumpers and step backs.

long 2s arent going to open up anything. 3s will.

Open shots are the desired end game of offense.

Prokorov · Post #407 » by **Prokorov** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:27 pm

Net Sentence wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Paradise wrote:So, according to that logic. Garnett was wide open every time since he shot long twos or LMA is left open too. Come on now.

It's the same exact percentage KG brought to the Nets and same percentage that Blatche brought to the table. Like him or not, that is the key area that Bargnani can bring to the table. It's undoubtedly an asset that can open up shots on the perimeter for Ellington and others.

take a look at film of KG as net. one thing that 90% of his longs 2-pointer/long jump shots have in common. they are wide open and the defense is giving us that shot. same with brook. same with thad.

blatche is a poor comparison, he didnt just take long 2s. a nd when he took them, everyone here killed him. he went to the hoop quote a bit, and everyone agreed that "good blatche" played near the rim while "bad blatche" was taking YOLO jumpers and step backs.

long 2s arent going to open up anything. 3s will.

Open shots are the desired end game of offense.

maybe in 1982. and if you subscribe to old school offense thats fine.... but actually, in todays world of advanced analytics, effiecient shots are the desired end game of offense.

MrDollarBills · Post #408 » by **MrDollarBills** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:31 pm

Jack is a downgrade from D-Will because of 3pt shooting and ball movement around the perimeter. That's about it...both players are D-Tier players.

Net Sentence · Post #409 » by **Net Sentence** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:50 pm

Prokorov wrote:
Net Sentence wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
take a look at film of KG as net. one thing that 90% of his longs 2-pointer/long jump shots have in common. they are wide open and the defense is giving us that shot. same with brook. same with thad.

blatche is a poor comparison, he didnt just take long 2s. a nd when he took them, everyone here killed him. he went to the hoop quote a bit, and everyone agreed that "good blatche" played near the rim while "bad blatche" was taking YOLO jumpers and step backs.

long 2s arent going to open up anything. 3s will.

Open shots are the desired end game of offense.

maybe in 1982. and if you subscribe to old school offense thats fine.... but actually, in todays world of advanced analytics, effiecient shots are the desired end game of offense.

So lets have someone force 60% of his shot attempts from 3 even if he is only hitting 32%. :banghead:

Missed 3pters lead to transition/easy shots for the opponent. Does that factor into you strategy? Do you want to get into a full court game when our best player is a halfcourt guy? How do free throws factor into your equation? Getting a shooting foul on a 3 is rare, getting FTs from a pullup shot off the dribble happens all the time.

3pters are fine as long as they come in the flow of your offense. Taking 3s early in the shot clock without trying to make a play moving towards the rim are bad shots and give the defense a rest possession. We need to make the defense work. Having the ability to hit shots from everywhere keeps the pressure on them but only if you are willing to take those long pullup 2s. They are the equivalent to a body shot in boxing. You rarely see someone get knocked out from a body shot but it sets up other punches and wears your opponent out.

kerry kittles · Post #410 » by **kerry kittles** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:48 pm

Net Sentence wrote:
kerry kittles wrote:
Net Sentence wrote:
Can you please stop calling me that. I know it's hard for you to grasp that more then one person doesnt like the guy who sucks.

I am defending Bargnani here. I wanted him before we even signed him and he is easily going to replace our least productive rotational player.

So a poster was banned around February who loved Jack more than anyone on the board, hated Mirza more than anyone on the board, hated on/off numbers, used FG% as the main arguing point, and magically we have a new poster here who fits the same exact bill? I don't buy it.

I dont care what you buy. I didnt join in Feb Sherlock. I just started posting here.

Well checking it was end of March and if I was banned on this board I probably wouldn't create an account the next day. Would probably wait a couple months for things to subside...

Post #411 » by **Dirk** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:22 pm

No one following your guys in the international teams?

Bargnani 15 pts, 5/8, 1/1 3pt, 3 rbs

Italy play today at 12EST and tomorrow at the same time I think. Links to the game are easy to find, firstrow, beba tv and sites like that.

Godnani, what else? So smooth. So much wasted talent. Absolutely love watching Galinari play as well.

Bogdanovic 15 pts, 3/12(1/7 3pt), 8/8 Ft, 4rbs, 4 asts

Croatia play again tomorrow vs Germany. Game will be streamed here: http://www.basketball-bund.de/livestream Bonus: you get to see Dirk + Schroder + Saric + Hezonja

Sir_Woof · Post #412 » by **Sir_Woof** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:41 pm

Another bad performance by the Croatian national team. Only bright spot was Šarić. Did you see Jack's lost twin brother Ukić?

Sir_Woof · Post #413 » by **Sir_Woof** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:18 pm

Bargnani dropped another 15 today.

Paradise · Post #414 » by **Paradise** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:47 pm

Sir_Woof wrote:Bargnani dropped another 15 today.

And got ejected for taunting :lol:

strangespot · Post #415 » by **strangespot** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:02 pm

Paradise wrote:
Sir_Woof wrote:Bargnani dropped another 15 today.

And got ejected for taunting

Italy's coach Pianigiani got ejected, not Bargnani.

jbeachboy · Post #416 » by **jbeachboy** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:44 am

im excited about " THE BIG TEASE" , love this new nickname phil gave him

MrDollarBills · Post #417 » by **MrDollarBills** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:05 pm

Dirk Nowitzki wrote:No one following your guys in the international teams?

Bargnani 15 pts, 5/8, 1/1 3pt, 3 rbs

Italy play today at 12EST and tomorrow at the same time I think. Links to the game are easy to find, firstrow, beba tv and sites like that.

Godnani, what else? So smooth. So much wasted talent. Absolutely love watching Galinari play as well.

Bogdanovic 15 pts, 3/12(1/7 3pt), 8/8 Ft, 4rbs, 4 asts

Croatia play again tomorrow vs Germany. Game will be streamed here: http://www.basketball-bund.de/livestream Bonus: you get to see Dirk + Schroder + Saric + Hezonja

Okay, if this guy is capable of knocking down that jumpshot at a solid clip why would you NOT want him to take that shot as opposed to preferring him to step back to take threes?

Prokorov · Post #418 » by **Prokorov** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:00 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
Dirk Nowitzki wrote:No one following your guys in the international teams?

Bargnani 15 pts, 5/8, 1/1 3pt, 3 rbs

Italy play today at 12EST and tomorrow at the same time I think. Links to the game are easy to find, firstrow, beba tv and sites like that.

Godnani, what else? So smooth. So much wasted talent. Absolutely love watching Galinari play as well.

Bogdanovic 15 pts, 3/12(1/7 3pt), 8/8 Ft, 4rbs, 4 asts

Croatia play again tomorrow vs Germany. Game will be streamed here: http://www.basketball-bund.de/livestream Bonus: you get to see Dirk + Schroder + Saric + Hezonja

Okay, if this guy is capable of knocking down that jumpshot at a solid clip why would you NOT want him to take that shot as opposed to preferring him to step back to take threes?

because its less efficient, and doest consistently create space. every time he takes a long 2, even at 45+ percent he prevents us from taking a better shot

Post #419 » by **Trader_Joe** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:15 pm

Prokorov wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
Dirk Nowitzki wrote:No one following your guys in the international teams?

Bargnani 15 pts, 5/8, 1/1 3pt, 3 rbs

Italy play today at 12EST and tomorrow at the same time I think. Links to the game are easy to find, firstrow, beba tv and sites like that.

Godnani, what else? So smooth. So much wasted talent. Absolutely love watching Galinari play as well.

Bogdanovic 15 pts, 3/12(1/7 3pt), 8/8 Ft, 4rbs, 4 asts

Croatia play again tomorrow vs Germany. Game will be streamed here: http://www.basketball-bund.de/livestream Bonus: you get to see Dirk + Schroder + Saric + Hezonja

Okay, if this guy is capable of knocking down that jumpshot at a solid clip why would you NOT want him to take that shot as opposed to preferring him to step back to take threes?

because its less efficient, and doest consistently create space. every time he takes a long 2, even at 45+ percent he prevents us from taking a better shot

Granted these guys could do much more as superior players but didn't...

Kobe
Wade
PP
Dirk
KG
Hamilton
Jordan

All help win titles with their long 2s a major part of their games?

Net Sentence · Post #420 » by **Net Sentence** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:42 pm

Prokorov wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
Dirk Nowitzki wrote:No one following your guys in the international teams?

Bargnani 15 pts, 5/8, 1/1 3pt, 3 rbs

Italy play today at 12EST and tomorrow at the same time I think. Links to the game are easy to find, firstrow, beba tv and sites like that.

Godnani, what else? So smooth. So much wasted talent. Absolutely love watching Galinari play as well.

Bogdanovic 15 pts, 3/12(1/7 3pt), 8/8 Ft, 4rbs, 4 asts

Croatia play again tomorrow vs Germany. Game will be streamed here: http://www.basketball-bund.de/livestream Bonus: you get to see Dirk + Schroder + Saric + Hezonja

Okay, if this guy is capable of knocking down that jumpshot at a solid clip why would you NOT want him to take that shot as opposed to preferring him to step back to take threes?

because its less efficient, and doest consistently create space. every time he takes a long 2, even at 45+ percent he prevents us from taking a better shot

Less efficient? any shot that goes in 46% of the time is efficient.

Doesnt create space? One step difference bro. Its still creating space.

Better shot? Bargs shoots 36% from 3 and 46% from mid range. I would rather have the shot that goes in 10% more. Your are basing everything in a vacum. Per 100 possessions 36 3s = 108 pts while 46 two's = 92 pts. I get that. But you dont get that:

a.) A made shot lets you set your defense. How many missed 3pters equal transition points? I dont have stats for it but I have watched enough basketball to know that 3pters lead to longer rebounds. Long rebounds go to wings and PGs. WIngs and PGs are much more likely to run in transition.

b.) If 3pters lead to more long rebounds then 2pter lead to more 2nd chance opportunities. How does that factor into the equation?

c.) you are much more likely to get fouled shooting that step in 2 then a set 3.

Players need to play within their boundaries. It's a chicken and the egg situation. Bargnani is a good 3pt shooter when he limits the amount he takes. More often then not he takes that step in 2 which he is able to make at a higher %. If he were to just chuck 3s like Mirza does then his 3pt% would decline and it ceases to be the more efficient shot based on your criteria.