Sundin elected into HOF

[whysoserious]

hsb, I agree although he wasn't all out hustle in the sense of Tucker or the like which is part of the reason he's not as revered as the Gilmours, Clarks, Tuckers and Domis. I think the Euro thing is still big for many of the older Leaf fans.

[YogiStewart]

i have a better question: if it was based on his NHL play, why wouldn't you vote sundin into the HOF?

-out of the 138 forwards in the HOF, only 18 have tallied more points than sundin, only 12 have scored more goals, and only 23 have more assists
-tied for 2nd most OT goals in league history
-top 10 in GWG
-top 20 in shorthanded goals (4 goals back of being top 10)
-tied for most consecutive 70+ pt seasons (15)

it's just perplexing but i'm sure if he did all this as a winnipeg jet then he would be a lock, am i right?

not sure why you're mentioning my former home town in your argument (you know, trying to make it personal), but sure, i'll bite.
if he did that as a Winnipeg jet, he should not be a HOFer.
he did dick all in the playoffs. so his best comparable would be Dale Hawerchuk. 2 different eras, but Ducky was a much better player than Sundin.

you happy?

[s e n s i]

i have a better question: if it was based on his NHL play, why wouldn't you vote sundin into the HOF?

-out of the 138 forwards in the HOF, only 18 have tallied more points than sundin, only 12 have scored more goals, and only 23 have more assists
-tied for 2nd most OT goals in league history
-top 10 in GWG
-top 20 in shorthanded goals (4 goals back of being top 10)
-tied for most consecutive 70+ pt seasons (15)

it's just perplexing but i'm sure if he did all this as a winnipeg jet then he would be a lock, am i right?

not sure why you're mentioning my former home town in your argument (you know, trying to make it personal), but sure, i'll bite.
if he did that as a Winnipeg jet, he should not be a HOFer.
he did dick all in the playoffs. so his best comparable would be Dale Hawerchuk. 2 different eras, but Ducky was a much better player than Sundin.

you happy?

so you're not a winnipeg jets fan? my apologies. i remember you telling a story about how you swore off realsports because they played an NFL game instead of a jets game on the big screen. i got the impression that you were a jets fan because of this incident, and also because you've posted on the jets board like a fan does. but if you're not, then my bad.

but anyway, you think sundin isn't a HOFer because "he did dick all in the playoffs" (82pts in 91gms = dick all apparently), and because hawerchuk was better than sundin?

hawerchuk was better than sundin, which is why he's in the HOF. this somehow means sundin shouldn't be in the HOF? in terms of offensive production, sundin is better than like 100+ other HOF fowards. i guess anyone worse than sundin shouldn't be in the HOF then? i don't quite understand this logic.

history suggests that sundin is a sure-fire lock for the hall. he's also a lock based on the criteria used to elect players into the hall. the only thing arguable about his induction is the fact he was elected on the 1st ballot, and even that, while a little surprising, is not much of a stretch. you're going to have to explain further, because just saying "he did dick all in the playoffs" is a futile excuse for such an outlandish opinion.

[YogiStewart]

actually, your question was if Sundin would have done that as a Wpg Jet, would he be a lock.

and i said no.
total playoff points means something, but its context. it was easy for the Leafs to make the playoffs after a mostly crappy Panthers and Lightening were let into the league.

if you want to use total playoff points as a basis for being a 1st ballot lock, then Larry Murphy should be in, as should Esa tikkanen. both have more cups than Sundin.

so it depends what or how you measure success. Hawerchuk won the Calder. he was a 5 time NHL all star (remember that he was playing in the same divison as the Oilers and Flames). he had over 100 points for 6 seasons and over 90 points for 2 seasons. he had INCREDIBLY crappy linemates. worse than Sundin ever had (Greg Paslawski, Paul Maclain, Andrew MacBain). he lost to the Oilers in the playoffs most years. he also had international credentials. who was the player on the ice during the Canada Cup when Gretzky and Lemieux scored? Ducky.

Sundin had longevity and a successful international career to solidify a HOF spot. but i'm looking back at the seasons Sundin played in. Jagr, Lemieux, Forsberg, Sakic, Mogilny, Selanne...those were the names that were on people's lips. Not Sundin.

Very very good player? yes. Great or one of the greatest? i'd vehemently argue that. Maybe in Toronto. and i guess that's good enough for the NHL.

again, i'm not saying he shouldn't be in the HOF. saying that he shouldn't have been a 1st ballot lock AND saying his international success made him a true HOFer

[s e n s i]

i have no idea why you continue referencing hawerchuk. hawerchuk is arguably a top 15-20 player of all-time, and again much better than sundin.

again, i'm not saying he shouldn't be in the HOF. saying that he shouldn't have been a 1st ballot lock AND saying his international success made him a true HOFer

but...

if it was based on his NHL play, there would be no way I'd vote Sundin into the Hall of Fame.

had you included "on the 1st ballot" at the end of this statement, then there would be no argument. but this whole time i'm thinking you're nuts for suggesting a top-30 point-getter of all-time shouldn't be in the HOF at all. and i never once said in this thread that he was a 1st ballot lock.

[UN-Owen]

i have a better question: if it was based on his NHL play, why wouldn't you vote sundin into the HOF?

-out of the 138 forwards in the HOF, only 18 have tallied more points than sundin, only 12 have scored more goals, and only 23 have more assists
-tied for 2nd most OT goals in league history
-top 10 in GWG
-top 20 in shorthanded goals (4 goals back of being top 10)
-tied for most consecutive 70+ pt seasons (15)

it's just perplexing but i'm sure if he did all this as a winnipeg jet then he would be a lock, am i right?

not sure why you're mentioning my former home town in your argument (you know, trying to make it personal), but sure, i'll bite.
if he did that as a Winnipeg jet, he should not be a HOFer.
he did dick all in the playoffs. so his best comparable would be Dale Hawerchuk. 2 different eras, but Ducky was a much better player than Sundin.

you happy?

82 points in 91 playoff games is "dick all"?

DURING HIS PRIME...how many Hall of Fame calibre players did Sundin play with WHILE THEY WERE IN THEIR PRIME?

[Mike Hunt]

The suggestion that Sundin's numbers wouldn't earn him a trip to the Hall of Fame if he played elsewhere is a farce. Being a point per game guy with over 1000 GP is a virtual lock for the HOF. Sundin had over 1300. His 500+ goals are also close to making someone a lock. When you add to that the fact that he was also an excellent defender at his position (despite never winning any hardware for it), it's pretty clear cut. When the worst thing you can say about a guy's game is "He wasn't great enough to carry mediocre talents all the way to a cup victory", you know he was pretty good.

To me, the basketball equivalent to Sundin would be Patrick Ewing (Never the best player in the league but among the best for a very long time. Always playing on teams with a talent deficit that he couldn't quite overcome in the playoffs). I don't think there was ever any doubt that Ewing deserved the nod, nor do I think there should ever have been any regarding Sundin.

I actually do think the fact that Sundin played in Toronto should have played a part in the voting. Sundin was able to last for over a decade in a media market which had the tendency to chew good hockey players up and spit them out. The consistency in his play was staggering and he was remarkably durable (even when he got injured, he'd come back much sooner than expected). I was not always a Leafs fan and Sundin was never my favourite hockey player, but him going into the hall is much deserved and expected.

[Ado05]

Imagine Sundin on our current team. Wow.

[TheAlchemist]

Imagine Sundin on our current team. Wow.

He'd finally have the legit line mates we wished for.


Lupul-Sundin-Kessel

Oh man.

[UN-Owen]

Imagine Sundin on our current team. Wow.

He'd finally have the legit line mates we wished for.


Lupul-Sundin-Kessel

Oh man.

If we're playing fantasy, imagine if Quebec hadn't traded him

Sundin - Forsberg - Sakic


That's the kinda line I wished for

[chargerxthirty]

I used to love Mats, but when the time came for him to depart, I despise how he handled it. He helped make himself a story and it was a bit pathetic to me. He could have helped us fetch a boatload of return if he didn't intentionally make the Mats Sundin show a reality.

I loved him as a player, but if you want to look at what a true professional does when they depart this great city after giving their greatest efforts, then see: Roy Halladay. That's the difference between someone who actually cares about the franchise and someone who doesn't.

God love Mats for all the great things he did here, but I'm still a little peeved at that nonsense he pulled. I hope he's happy with his 20 y/o gf and enjoys his retirement.