All Things POLITICS 3.0

[Capn'O]

My 2c:

1. Klansman/Nazi is a different comparison from Klansman/Hitler and I think that was CJ's point. Leader, inspiration, and organizer vs. lesser rank. Not that the groups can't be compared but the roles and degree of adherence to ideology.

From there - if you don't want to forgive the rank of your oppressive group - that's you and there really isn't anything that can happen on a message board that should or could change that.

2. I would be sad to see you go and hope you take some time to consider other outcomes. You add a lot here on a number of topics that go beyond the game and I've always enjoyed our banter/back and forth. But the route is to ask Howard directly.

[CJackson]

I need a break. A permanent one from here when I'm basically told blacks can't feel that the KKK and Nazi treatment equate. It's OK. Blacks feelings on their history has always been frowned upon. Our feelings can't be as strong as others. Toughn the hell up.

Hit that permaban

I've never seen that said
not once

You didn't say it but it was said. Why do you think I went the hell off?

Let me get this straight. You're equating Klan membership to everyday mistakes?


Wow!!!!

No, I am not.

But bias as an attitude has its roots in the commitment to staying angry for the sake of stoking anger, not on achieving any understanding.

Byrd said:

"I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened."

He never asked anyone to bury his past. He didn't hide from it.

Consistently relying on false equivalences is how to promote bias, not resolve it and equating a man who willingly acknowledges their sins and then does good to Adolf Hitler is just sad.

That you are using this terrible analogy to further promote yet another false equivalence as proof that Clinton's attack on Trump's racialist campaign tactics is morally null and void really deflates any moral authority your argument attempts to make.

AKA. How dare you equate a Klansman to a Nazi! You don't get to feel that way! Give that Klansman a break! He just made a mistake and apologized for it!

I never said that.

I said Robert Byrd is not analagous to Hitler.

[AndroidMan]

What happened to The Wall?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3758347/Trump-says-border-wall-35-45-FEET-high.html

Donald Trump said he had 'no choice' but to build the 1,000-mile long concrete wall along the Mexican border
The Republican candidate reiterated his plans for the structure, which he said could be '35-45 feet high' - but in October he proposed 40-50 feet
He claims it will be built 'so fast it'll make your head spin'
The businessman added there will be 'no amnesty' for illegal immigrants, in the town hall with Fox News on Wednesday

'We have a trade deficit with Mexico of close to $60 billion a year. So right there you can build the wall because the wall's a fraction of that,' Trump said in a separate Fox News interview on Tuesday.
'We lose a fortune on trade, and that doesn't include the drugs that are pouring across the border, which are probably double or triple or something.'

Right, but you still have to pay for troops to guard the perimeter of the wall.

Not necessarily. Current border patrol officials say building the wall is the best solution. The objective is too effectively decrease the ease at crossing the border. Building a wall helps make the process of illegal crossing a much more difficult process.

[Greenie]

My 2c:

1. Klansman/Nazi is a different comparison from Klansman/Hitler and I think that was CJ's point. Leader, inspiration, and organizer vs. lesser rank. Not that the groups can't be compared but the roles and degree of adherence to ideology.

From there - if you don't want to forgive the rank of your oppressive group - that's you and there really isn't anything that can happen on a message board that should or could change that.

2. I would be sad to see you go and hope you consider other outcomes. You add a lot here on a number of topics that go beyond the game and I've always enjoyed our banter/back and forth. But the route is to ask Howard directly.

We're speaking on Byrd who started his own damn Klan chapter.

Hitler was a political guy who stood with the Nazi's and led them.

Byrd is a political guy who stood with the KKK and led them.

KKK = Nazi's. Killing people due to the color of their skin(race).

No one will tell me that's a false equivalence and think I'm going to take that on the chin or have thick skin. No one.

[magnumt]

My 2c:

1. Klansman/Nazi is a different comparison from Klansman/Hitler and I think that was CJ's point. Leader, inspiration, and organizer vs. lesser rank. Not that the groups can't be compared but the roles and degree of adherence to ideology.

From there - if you don't want to forgive the rank of your oppressive group - that's you and there really isn't anything that can happen on a message board that should or could change that.

2. I would be sad to see you go and hope you consider other outcomes. You add a lot here on a number of topics that go beyond the game and I've always enjoyed our banter/back and forth. But the route is to ask Howard directly.

We're speaking on Byrd who started his own damn Klan chapter.

Hitler was a political guy who stood with the Nazi's and led them.

Byrd is a political guy who stood with the KKK and led them.

KKK = Nazi's. Killing people due to the color of their skin(race).

No one will tell me that's a false equivalence and think I'm going to take that on the chin or have thick skin. No one.

That's actually incorrect.

Hitler and the Nazis believed that they were the true race. They targeted ANYONE else as inferior and sought out to exterminate them. These included fellow white skinned people.

KKK on the other hand are alirtle more slack in their targets (only aiming at non-whites and LBGT).

--Mags

[Capn'O]

KKK = Nazi's. Killing people due to the color of their skin(race).

That was my point. The groups and impact of racism in the US/anti-Semitism in Europe are comparable.

Hitler was a political guy who stood with the Nazi's and led them.

Byrd is a political guy who stood with the KKK and led them.

You are understating what Hitler specifically did. Just a tad. Hitler organized, promoted, and oversaw the murder of a third of my people. I do not accept that comparison and I never will.

[Greenie]

My 2c:

1. Klansman/Nazi is a different comparison from Klansman/Hitler and I think that was CJ's point. Leader, inspiration, and organizer vs. lesser rank. Not that the groups can't be compared but the roles and degree of adherence to ideology.

From there - if you don't want to forgive the rank of your oppressive group - that's you and there really isn't anything that can happen on a message board that should or could change that.

2. I would be sad to see you go and hope you consider other outcomes. You add a lot here on a number of topics that go beyond the game and I've always enjoyed our banter/back and forth. But the route is to ask Howard directly.

We're speaking on Byrd who started his own damn Klan chapter.

Hitler was a political guy who stood with the Nazi's and led them.

Byrd is a political guy who stood with the KKK and led them.

KKK = Nazi's. Killing people due to the color of their skin(race).

No one will tell me that's a false equivalence and think I'm going to take that on the chin or have thick skin. No one.

That's actually incorrect.

Hitler and the Nazis believed that they were the true race. They targeted ANYONE else as inferior and sought out to exterminate them. These included fellow white skinned people.

KKK on the other hand are alirtle more slack in their targets (only aiming at non-whites and LBGT).

--Mags

Are Jewish people not a race of people?

[BBALLER4FR]

I'm willing to bet most don't know Hillary's background.

I'd put money that most think Robert Byrd played for the Indiana Pacers.

[Greenie]

KKK = Nazi's. Killing people due to the color of their skin(race).

That was my point. The groups and impact of racism in the US/anti-Semitism in Europe are comparable.

Hitler was a political guy who stood with the Nazi's and led them.

Byrd is a political guy who stood with the KKK and led them.

You are understating what Hitler specifically did. Just a tad. Hitler organized, promoted, and oversaw the murder of a third of my people. I do not accept that comparison and I never will.

Well, Byrd organized, promoted and oversaw his very own chapter of an organization who lynched and killed thousands of my people spanning over a century. I do not accept that can not be both be viewed a evil ass men that can never wash their sins away. Black lives matter too.


This is my last post on this forum. I can't even get banned in this bitch. Bye

[NoLayupRule]

AKA. How dare you equate a Klansman to a Nazi! You don't get to feel that way! Give that Klansman a break! He just made a mistake and apologized for it!

Im sorry Greenie

thats simply not what he said or suggested

[NoLayupRule]

My 2c:

1. Klansman/Nazi is a different comparison from Klansman/Hitler and I think that was CJ's point. Leader, inspiration, and organizer vs. lesser rank. Not that the groups can't be compared but the roles and degree of adherence to ideology.

From there - if you don't want to forgive the rank of your oppressive group - that's you and there really isn't anything that can happen on a message board that should or could change that.

2. I would be sad to see you go and hope you consider other outcomes. You add a lot here on a number of topics that go beyond the game and I've always enjoyed our banter/back and forth. But the route is to ask Howard directly.

We're speaking on Byrd who started his own damn Klan chapter.

Hitler was a political guy who stood with the Nazi's and led them.

Byrd is a political guy who stood with the KKK and led them.

KKK = Nazi's. Killing people due to the color of their skin(race).

No one will tell me that's a false equivalence and think I'm going to take that on the chin or have thick skin. No one.

so your issue is that Hilary called him a friend and mentor when he died

this is what you're whole thing is about?

Im honestly trying to understand because I'm as deeply against the Klan as you are
But Im not feeling like anyone here is trying to defend the KKK.

[Oscirus]

What happened to The Wall?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3758347/Trump-says-border-wall-35-45-FEET-high.html

Donald Trump said he had 'no choice' but to build the 1,000-mile long concrete wall along the Mexican border
The Republican candidate reiterated his plans for the structure, which he said could be '35-45 feet high' - but in October he proposed 40-50 feet
He claims it will be built 'so fast it'll make your head spin'
The businessman added there will be 'no amnesty' for illegal immigrants, in the town hall with Fox News on Wednesday

'We have a trade deficit with Mexico of close to $60 billion a year. So right there you can build the wall because the wall's a fraction of that,' Trump said in a separate Fox News interview on Tuesday.
'We lose a fortune on trade, and that doesn't include the drugs that are pouring across the border, which are probably double or triple or something.'

Right, but you still have to pay for troops to guard the perimeter of the wall.

Not to mention that trade deficits don't work like that.

Trump: We're building a wall, here's the bill.
Mexico: Nah, we're good.
Trump: 60 billion dollar trade deficit.
Mexico: And?
Trump: The wall just got 4 feet higher.
Mexico: K, good luck with that. Byeeeeee

[Oscirus]

My 2c:

1. Klansman/Nazi is a different comparison from Klansman/Hitler and I think that was CJ's point. Leader, inspiration, and organizer vs. lesser rank. Not that the groups can't be compared but the roles and degree of adherence to ideology.

From there - if you don't want to forgive the rank of your oppressive group - that's you and there really isn't anything that can happen on a message board that should or could change that.

2. I would be sad to see you go and hope you consider other outcomes. You add a lot here on a number of topics that go beyond the game and I've always enjoyed our banter/back and forth. But the route is to ask Howard directly.

We're speaking on Byrd who started his own damn Klan chapter.

Hitler was a political guy who stood with the Nazi's and led them.

Byrd is a political guy who stood with the KKK and led them.

KKK = Nazi's. Killing people due to the color of their skin(race).

No one will tell me that's a false equivalence and think I'm going to take that on the chin or have thick skin. No one.

so your issue is that Hilary called him a friend and mentor when he died

this is what you're whole thing is about?

Im honestly trying to understand because I'm as deeply against the Klan as you are
But Im not feeling like anyone here is trying to defend the KKK.

I think it's that along with the fact that some people ( and not even just people on this board) are saying that it's alright because Byrd apologized for being a part of the Klan as if that should somehow absolve his actions.

[CJackson]

We're speaking on Byrd who started his own damn Klan chapter.

Hitler was a political guy who stood with the Nazi's and led them.

Byrd is a political guy who stood with the KKK and led them.

KKK = Nazi's. Killing people due to the color of their skin(race).

No one will tell me that's a false equivalence and think I'm going to take that on the chin or have thick skin. No one.

so your issue is that Hilary called him a friend and mentor when he died

this is what you're whole thing is about?

Im honestly trying to understand because I'm as deeply against the Klan as you are
But Im not feeling like anyone here is trying to defend the KKK.

I think it's that along with the fact that some people ( and not even just people on this board) are saying that it's alright because Byrd apologized for being a part of the Klan as if that should somehow absolve his actions.

Having an opinion on Byrd's past is not what was happening though.

Somehow it became Byrd = Hitler and thus Clinton's campaign is just as racist as Trump's which is absurd. I was very patient in trying to deconstruct such illogic and dealing with that kind of specious reasoning really has nothing to do with each person's personal feelings about Byrd or the Klan or Hitler. Challenging the logic of throwing them all into a blender and preaching vacuous moral relativism is not the same thing as denying anybody's personal feelings which no one has done.

[Oscirus]

so your issue is that Hilary called him a friend and mentor when he died

this is what you're whole thing is about?

Im honestly trying to understand because I'm as deeply against the Klan as you are
But Im not feeling like anyone here is trying to defend the KKK.

I think it's that along with the fact that some people ( and not even just people on this board) are saying that it's alright because Byrd apologized for being a part of the Klan as if that should somehow absolve his actions.

Having an opinion on Byrd's past is not what was happening though.

Somehow it became Byrd = Hitler and thus Clinton's campaign is just as racist as Trump's which is absurd. I was very patient in trying to deconstruct such illogic and dealing with that kind of specious reasoning really has nothing to do with each person's personal feelings about Byrd or the Klan or Hitler. Challenging the logic of throwing them all into a blender and preaching vacuous moral relativism is not the same thing as denying anybody's personal feelings which no one has done.

Perhaps it was a bit of an extreme argument but if we're arguing degrees of racism when it comes to presidential candidates then we're all in trouble. What I got from the argument was basically how much racism is acceptable in one's past and whether or not people can atone for their actions/assosciations.

[NoLayupRule]

I think it's that along with the fact that some people ( and not even just people on this board) are saying that it's alright because Byrd apologized for being a part of the Klan as if that should somehow absolve his actions.

im not sure anyone is saying its alright

I think people are saying its ancient history

he was in the Klan for a year in 1943 when he was 24 years old

hes a pig, a southern racist and he's a repentant one, or was, and I don't think he needs defending

but saying Hilary saying something nice about him when he died makes her a racist is a leap I don't accept
just like people who try to pin Bill's policy of tough crime persecution and sentencing on her 20 years later

she wasn't making that policy
her husband did

she's not Bill


and while I find many of Bill's policies reprehensible I don't buy the BS of racism in them

the truth, and I was alive and aware at the time, is that the black community as much as anyone was begging for more policing, stricter sentencing for drug dealers, etc

the national position at the time was intolerance of crime and drugs
its only recently that most of the nation has caught up to the fact that this was the wrong policy in every way

blaming Hilary for a southern senators Klan affiliation in the 40s is as silly as blaming her for the war on drugs

saying Byrd is Hitler is silly

Saying Hilary is Trump is silly


defending Byrd is also silly

hes a pig

just because he repented years later doesnt change my opinion of him
but I accept the forgiveness of others for a segregationist, race hating senator from a state full of the dregs of humanity
i just think he and Strom Thurman can give each other reach arounds in hell for all I care

[CJackson]

I think it's that along with the fact that some people ( and not even just people on this board) are saying that it's alright because Byrd apologized for being a part of the Klan as if that should somehow absolve his actions.

Having an opinion on Byrd's past is not what was happening though.

Somehow it became Byrd = Hitler and thus Clinton's campaign is just as racist as Trump's which is absurd. I was very patient in trying to deconstruct such illogic and dealing with that kind of specious reasoning really has nothing to do with each person's personal feelings about Byrd or the Klan or Hitler. Challenging the logic of throwing them all into a blender and preaching vacuous moral relativism is not the same thing as denying anybody's personal feelings which no one has done.

Perhaps it was a bit of an extreme argument but if we're arguing degrees of racism when it comes to presidential candidates then we're all in trouble. What I got from the argument was basically how much racism is acceptable in one's past and whether or not people can atone for their actions/assosciations.

There are two subjects here.

The campaigns is one. Robert Byrd was another.

Nobody forgave Byrd. He had to atone for his sins and that is on him. So if anybody wants to claim sympathies with the Klan because their Hitler analogies are shot down then that is not my problem.

Ostensibly this thread has been discussing the campaign. If someone wants to discuss Byrd that is swell. Nobody suggested anything is off limits. Then discuss that. But it has nothing to do with how the campaigns are conducting themselves.

So if the topic is how much forgiveness one has for another's past actions, then that is the topic.

But the thread goes off the rails when the discussion is whether or not Trump is running a campaign to court white supremacists and it morphs into Byrd = Hitler + Byrd knew Clinton, therefore criticicism of the Trump campaign is nullified. That's illogical and identifying it as such does not = selective acceptance of racism or genocide.

It is real simple. Is Clinton actively courting white supremacists? I say she is not and Trump is. And Robert Byrd has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

Being clear about what the topic actually is seems like a struggle for some.

[Oscirus]

Sorry this is going to be all over the place.

but saying Hilary saying something nice about him when he died makes her a racist is a leap

blaming Hilary for a southern senators Klan affiliation in the 40s is as silly as blaming her for the war on drugs

If we use that argument then we can't really blame Trump for the fact that the KKK supports him or even blame him for refusing to disavow David Duke. This is politics your associations and your words represent you.

but saying Hilary saying something nice about him when he died makes her a racist is a leap I don't accept
just like people who try to pin Bill's policy of tough crime persecution and sentencing on her 20 years later

You're right, his policies aren't on her. But super predator was definitely something that was hers.

Basically, neither side should be calling the other side a bigot given both side's questionable actions.

[CJackson]

Sorry this is going to be all over the place.

but saying Hilary saying something nice about him when he died makes her a racist is a leap

blaming Hilary for a southern senators Klan affiliation in the 40s is as silly as blaming her for the war on drugs

If we use that argument then we can't really blame Trump for the fact that the KKK supports him or even blame him for refusing to disavow David Duke. This is politics your associations and your words represent you.

but saying Hilary saying something nice about him when he died makes her a racist is a leap I don't accept
just like people who try to pin Bill's policy of tough crime persecution and sentencing on her 20 years later

You're right, his policies aren't on her. But super predator was definitely something that was hers.

Basically, neither side should be calling the other side a bigot given both side's questionable actions.

David Duke remains an avowed racist. Byrd was not. How is that even comparable?

And the Trump rallies are a magnet for white supremacists. Some of them have been allowed to work as volunteers even when sporting openly visible Nazi tattoos. They are stalking reporters at Trump rallies and building dossiers by taking notes and photos of them as they stare them down. People are chanting White Power at Trump rallies. Trump has merged with Breitbart, a known purveyor of hate rhetoric. And this is not even going into the many statements and implicit threats issued by Trump himself.

If you allow all of this to continue to happen then you condone it. This is not randomly assigning guilt by association. This is how the Trump campaign conducts itself.

The Clinton campaign is not even comparable so suggesting criticism of either is unjustified is indefensible.

Let me ask you, if there were people audibly chanting White Power at a Clinton rally do you think she would tacitly overlook that because she wants their votes? I don't think so. She would call them out and deny that as acceptable behavior.

[Oscirus]

But the thread goes off the rails when the discussion is whether or not Trump is running a campaign to court white supremacists and it morphs into Byrd = Hitler + Byrd knew Clinton, therefore criticicism of the Trump campaign is nullified. That's illogical and identifying it as such does not = selective acceptance of racism or genocide.

It seems to me the question was whether or not Clinton is the correct person to be delivering someone else criticism on racism. Admittedly calling Byrd Hitler or other people klan sympathizers is hopefully hyperbole but his Klan past is still there.

However, while I might not agree with her on this issue I can understand why the subject bothers her.