Can Amar'e be better without Nash?

[2010]

There are many doubters questioning whether Amar'e Stoudemire will be able to put up the same numbers without the benefits of playing with Steve Nash setting him up in the pick and roll game. However, I think this year it is arguable that Amar'e will be better off without Nash. I am of the opinion that he will debunk the theory of Nash making Amar'e the player he is today. I will even go so far as to say that the presence of Nash may have even held Amar'e back, statisically and as a leader.

First of all, Amar'e played his rookie season with Stephon Marbury (who's no ideal point guard distributor) and still immediately stepped on the scene as an impact player winning the ROY award. So if he could do it as a 19 year old kid straight out of high school and without a jumpshot, it's not a good bet to think he can't put up career #'s now without Nash and being a better all-around scorer with a legit midrange game and showing signs of developing a 3pt shot (guess those chest-naked end of practice jumpshot sessions are paying off). This is the first time in his career that he will be able to get his hands on the ball and create for himself. This will open up a new dimension to his game and make him even more feared and a legitamate MVP candidate.

Lastly, Amar'e always had to defer to Steve Nash as the alpha male personality on that Suns team. He therefore never got the chance to exhibit his true leadership qualities that we are reaping the benefits of seeing during his short tenure as a Knick. Many of us had no idea of how much of a high-character guy and a hardworker he was. In fact, the media had us believing the opposite. That he was a lazy player (especially on defense), a serial malcontent (not getting along with coach D'Antoni), and seemingly immature (wanting his money and wanting to be the head honcho offensively) at the team's expense. I think without the presence of Nash we are now seeing that Amar'e is a natural leader and very comfortable in his skin in that capacity.

Do you agree or disagree? Can Amer'e be better without Nash?

[kane2021]

Im feeling the same way. This guy wanted a change. Everyone says he put up the numbers he did because of Nash. But Amare is so much more than a log catcher now. He has enjoyed being in NY. I think he is going to have the best year of his career. Baring injury or the addition of a 28 ppg scorer.

[Ignitowsky]

Good post, well thought out

I don't know that Nash was the alpha male, but it certainly was his team, and I think Amar'e may have deferred to him becuase he was older, a veteran and the natural leader- the team's PG. Based on what I've seen of Amar'e so far, I can't beleive anyone who actually knew him would call him lazy, and I don't beleive that he's working hard because he's in NY. You have to put a lot of work into your game, espcially after microfracture surgery, to get it to the level that Amar'e has reached so far.

Will Amar'e be "better ifhe scores more ppg than he did on average with Nash, but we don't make the playoffs?

[Scorpion King]

Why do not we try looking at this situation in a different way ? Amare relied on Nash creating shots for him.

Now Amare can work on his game and learn some post moves, hook shots and other instead of just dunking the ball. I want to see Amare rpg numbers improve it been ok his career rgp rite number is 8.9.

I want to see him become a double double machine.

[Subway Token]

I believe he can. It's whether or not he WANTS to. I think he does. I can't wait to see...

[magnumt]

Well he dropped 32 with Felton so yeah I think he'll be alright.

--Mags

[2010]

Another thing we need to think about is the *presence* factor. This guy just has it. He commands double, and triple teams when he gets the ball. I believe if he continues to embrace the leadership role we will see a big jump in his assist #'s. As defenses key in on him and try to converge and take him out of his game it'll open up the floor for Gallinari, Chandler, Randolph and Felton. This will make him a better player as well if he willingly passes out of the paint area (which I believe he will).

I laughed everytime last year when I heard we should just resign David Lee because he rebounds better than Amar'e, has better assist #'s and puts up similar scoring #'s. How many here still believe that? Lee lacked *presense* and he lacked ferocity which demoralizes the opponent and takes the fans out of the game when your team is on the road.

This is the same reason we absolutely MUST make sure we bring Melo home. Even though Melo is not a great all-around player #'s wise he still brings *presence*. That kid is the most diversified scorer in the league (aside from Kobe) and although he doesn't have big assist #'s his mere presense alongside Amar'e would open up the floor for everyone else. So even if Melo's assist #'s wouldn't wow you, I'd bet anything that Felton and Gallinari's would. Simply because the floor would be so open for them they'd be able to do whatever they wanted on the floor and the defense would be at their mercy.

[blueNorange]

everyone who has the nerve to think that amar'e can't play at the level without nash is a straight up fool, sure nash helped amar'e go to the next level but nash didn't give amar'e his explosive first step, nash didn't give amar'e his jumpshot, and nash certainly didn't give amar'e his post moves.

mike d'antoni made steve nash
steve nash made amar'e stoudemire

people forget that amar'e is still good with or without nash as nash is still good with or without d'antoni.

[Futureisnow]

A lot of the criticism Amare gets is because he signed with us. Had any other team signed Amare, especially the Nets, they'd be heralded as making a wise move by adding a building block. We do it and it's nothing but negativity.

The guy takes care of his body, bounced back from two potentially career ending injuries without losing a step, seems to take pride in being a leader, and he embraces NY.

I think he'll be the first legit all-star player we've had in a long time.

[magnumt]

A look of the criticism Amare gets is because he signed with us. Had any other team signed Amare, especially the Nets, they'd be heralded as making a wise move by adding a building block. We do it and it's nothing but negativity.

You're now figuring this out? Our board is sadly filled with MAJOR whiners.

Note: Not talking about 2010, just speaking in general.

--Mags

[NyKnicks1714]

He should be able to put up the same numbers considering the system and good p&r play from Felton.

If you look at Amare's field goal percentage the past 4 years, it correlates directly to the % of his fg's that were assisted on. As a whole, a high percentage of his baskets are assisted on.

06-07: 57.5%, 65%
07-08: 59%, 70%
08-09: 54%, 57%
09-10: 56%, 61%


The more involved Nash was in Amare's offense, the more efficient Amare was. If you take him out of the P&R and force feed him, he could easily put up more points, but not as efficiently.

His face up game is pretty solid, his post game is almost non-existant, but his ability to catch and finish is excellent and by far and away the best part of his game. Amare is best playing off the ball as a finisher (both at the rim and taking jumpers). In Phoenix, Nash + the system maximized those talents, to suggest that Nash held him back is just so wrong.

I hope there's little change in how he's used, because there's no reason to try and turn Amare into something he's not.

[Falstaffxx]

I don't know about better but I think we can expect him to put up similar numbers as he did in Phoenix. The Knicks' roster has its own strengths. I expect Gallinari to be an outstanding scorer this year, and his presence should help Stoudemire.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Yeah, I agree. Amare will be fine. He's a beast with or without Nash. I'm sure Nash helped him get a lot of open looks that Felton might not be able to get him, but I could see Amare getting more shots with the Knicks.

Typically, Amare was only getting 14 or 15 shots per game with the Suns. I think he'll be more involved with the Knicks and might get 16 or 17 shots a game. At least he should. He could hit a career high in ppg.

[magnumt]

^He got 14 last night through 3 Qtrs, and hit like 12-of-14.

--Mags

[br7knicks]

better, i don't think. but i think he can play at, or at least right next to the any level he's played with nash. i also, however, think that him bringing wins is more important than him being better

[SoleMelo]

He should be able to put up the same numbers considering the system and good p&r play from Felton.

If you look at Amare's field goal percentage the past 4 years, it correlates directly to the % of his fg's that were assisted on. As a whole, a high percentage of his baskets are assisted on.

06-07: 57.5%, 65%
07-08: 59%, 70%
08-09: 54%, 57%
09-10: 56%, 61%


The more involved Nash was in Amare's offense, the more efficient Amare was. If you take him out of the P&R and force feed him, he could easily put up more points, but not as efficiently.

His face up game is pretty solid, his post game is almost non-existant, but his ability to catch and finish is excellent and by far and away the best part of his game. Amare is best playing off the ball as a finisher (both at the rim and taking jumpers). In Phoenix, Nash + the system maximized those talents, to suggest that Nash held him back is just so wrong.

I hope there's little change in how he's used, because there's no reason to try and turn Amare into something he's not.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the only power forward to have less of their shots come off of assists was Dirk Nowitzki. I do agree with your point that if Amar'e scores more, he's likely to be less efficient (which isn't terrible, the guy has a TS% in the 600s...), but not so much that Nash made things easier. Right now, I think its about who you pair up with Amar'e in the front court. Pau Gasol has been a worse rebounder than Amar'e for his career, but stepped it up later in his career when playing PF next to Andrew Bynum. Maybe Mozgov, if he gets significant playing time next to him, will make rebounding easier for Stat?

Personally, I'm hoping for 25 and 11 out of Amar'e, but I expect something to the tune of 22 and 9.

[2010]

He should be able to put up the same numbers considering the system and good p&r play from Felton.

If you look at Amare's field goal percentage the past 4 years, it correlates directly to the % of his fg's that were assisted on. As a whole, a high percentage of his baskets are assisted on.

06-07: 57.5%, 65%
07-08: 59%, 70%
08-09: 54%, 57%
09-10: 56%, 61%


The more involved Nash was in Amare's offense, the more efficient Amare was. If you take him out of the P&R and force feed him, he could easily put up more points, but not as efficiently.

His face up game is pretty solid, his post game is almost non-existant, but his ability to catch and finish is excellent and by far and away the best part of his game. Amare is best playing off the ball as a finisher (both at the rim and taking jumpers). In Phoenix, Nash + the system maximized those talents, to suggest that Nash held him back is just so wrong.

I hope there's little change in how he's used, because there's no reason to try and turn Amare into something he's not.

Let me ask you this...if Amar'e's efficiency took a slight hit but his volume stats increased while he showed a more diversified array of ways to score (more creating his own shot) and making others better by allowing them to play off him, would that not qualify him as becoming a better player?

If a guy scores at higher percentages but in a limited fashion does that necessarily mean he's better?

[boomann21]

I wouldn't say better. I'm expecting the same Amare I've seen for the past few years in Phoenix, but with just a different uniform. But Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Quinten Richardson and Shawn Marion never matched their Phoenix numbers when they left from being under Nash's guiding hand. So we will see. I mean he was probably the only other player on that team who wasn't a complete role player so we might see him continue to produce at a high level. I just don't expect much from the rebounding department from the guy.

[NyKnicks1714]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the only power forward to have less of their shots come off of assists was Dirk Nowitzki

I don't know what you're talking about here. The other top pf's in the league (Bosh, Duncan, Dirk, Gasol) have a considerably lower pergentage of their buckets assisted on. KG the last few years has had a really high percentage, but he's become the 3rd or 4th option offensively.

[2010]

I wouldn't say better. I'm expecting the same Amare I've seen for the past few years in Phoenix, but with just a different uniform. But Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Quinten Richardson and Shawn Marion never matched their Phoenix numbers when they left from being under Nash's guiding hand. So we will see. I mean he was probably the only other player on that team who wasn't a complete role player so we might see him continue to produce at a high level. I just don't expect much from the rebounding department from the guy.

If Amar'e is still able to score off assists from Felton (similar to his points off the PnR with Nash), but also continues to can the midrange jumper, creates more off the dribble and passes out of the post and makes his teammates better...all while staying at the same level with is averages or increasing them, how could you not say he's better? Especially if we are winning.

Diaw, Bell, Q-Rich and Marion are all quite a few notches below Amar'e on the talent-level. None of those players are go-to-guys.