OT - Assault Weapons Ban Clarification

[seren]

Protest wouldn't help? Let me tell you something. If there was a single body of non-profit that had the same resources as NRA that was in the ears of every congressman talking about real issues that I listed, TV spots about the domestic spying, drones flying over us, recording of every online communication with a massive federal force, illegal wiretapping, I would tell you that none of these would be possible for the government.

That is what is killing me about these gun folks. The second amendment and the sad reality that government indeed can be very dangerous for its own citizens is simply an excuse they bring up. In reality, they just like their toys and can't live without them. They don't give a dam about tyranny or anything.

Protests could never get that big or that organized. Why do you think that is? Who do you think is controlling the strings? Who are the people behind the curtain? Like I said, you guys are ignorant about those outside your comfort zone. Some have them for toys, no doubt, and that is their right. There are plenty of people that take the second amendment seriously. People don't get fired up over toys, especially when there are legitimate reasons for the action. In this case there is not. Your entire post is mostly nonsense.

You are admitting exactly what I am saying. There are few people taking the danger from big government seriously. Interesting thing is those guys are not in majority NRA members screaming "gov't are gonna take my guns". They are the ones that are trying really hard to raise awareness to gov't overreaching. They are the ones going after stopping SOPA, talking about domestic spying, trying to push against government executing its own people without trial.

The tyranny crowd is a bunch of jokers who enjoy collecting the bigger and better guns. They are the least likely group that would have anything to do with uprising against a more direct takeover. Heck, most of them would gladly join the gobernment to go after "commies" who want to stop government atrocities because it would give them a license to shoot bunch of civilians.

[AndroidMan]

I've stayed away from this thread for a reason, as I'm aware the anti-gun people will keep flinging their nonsensical arguments(GONYK,Hawthorne, and others) What I will say is that I'm extremely impressed at arguments brought forward by alphadogz. He makes good cases not only for how inept the law will be, the deeper problems of society, but also for how corrupt our government really is. We had our spats, but alpha has really impressed me with his knowledge over some of these subjects, well articulated. Of course E86 usually lays some solid points down as well. Continue the discussion while I get popcorn.

Will even give a shout out to lliiknicksiill33 and ballboy loyalfans for solid arguments.

[LoyalFan]

Are you really that dense? The point is that the whole issue with guns is overblown. Shotguns kill more than rifles (of which assault rifles are a small part) and yet nobody is calling for them to be banned. Why assault weapons, then? More people are killed with body parts (hands, legs, feet, etc) than rifles. It should be clear to anyone with half a brain that the problem is people. For whatever reason, we have become sociopathic, violent killers in a much larger percentage than ever before. That is the issue...people. We are trying to treat the pain instead of the sickness. Knock yourselves out arguing that. Then spend some thought on how to stop the madness.

So then I ask, once again, what's your solution? Is doing absolutely nothing in regards to guns the better solution?

the solution is there actually no solution. even if they pass a magical ban on all guns this afternoon you will not get rid of them. you will not eliminate crime. there is no 'magic wand' a new law that only is followed by people who dont break laws does not fix the problem

now since you are also not going to magically pass an out right gun ban EVER in this country you are back at the same starting point arent you.

so a more important question to you is why the need to pass a meaningless law. just for the sake of saying you did "SOMETHING"?

[GONYK]

I've stayed away from this thread for a reason, as I'm aware the anti-gun people will keep flinging their nonsensical arguments(GONYK,Hawthorne, and others) What I will say that I'm extremely impressed at arguments brought forward by alphadogz. He makes good cases not only for how inept the law will be, the deeper problems of society, but also for how corrupt our government really is. We had our spats, but alpha has really impressed me with his knowledge over some of these subjects, well articulated. Of course E86 usually lays some solid points down as well. Continue the discussion while I get popcorn.

What nonsensical arguments have I made?

I've only asked a simple question that only one pro-gun poster (E86) has attempted to answer.

I'll pose the same question to you, in case you feel like actually participating: If you don't like the government making access to assault weapons tighter, and don't feel like it addresses the problem, what is your solution?

[LoyalFan]

Protest wouldn't help? Let me tell you something. If there was a single body of non-profit that had the same resources as NRA that was in the ears of every congressman talking about real issues that I listed, TV spots about the domestic spying, drones flying over us, recording of every online communication with a massive federal force, illegal wiretapping, I would tell you that none of these would be possible for the government.

That is what is killing me about these gun folks. The second amendment and the sad reality that government indeed can be very dangerous for its own citizens is simply an excuse they bring up. In reality, they just like their toys and can't live without them. They don't give a dam about tyranny or anything.

Protests could never get that big or that organized. Why do you think that is? Who do you think is controlling the strings? Who are the people behind the curtain? Like I said, you guys are ignorant about those outside your comfort zone. Some have them for toys, no doubt, and that is their right. There are plenty of people that take the second amendment seriously. People don't get fired up over toys, especially when there are legitimate reasons for the action. In this case there is not. Your entire post is mostly nonsense.

You are admitting exactly what I am saying. There are few people taking the danger from big government seriously. Interesting thing is those guys are not in majority NRA members screaming "gov't are gonna take my guns". They are the ones that are trying really hard to raise awareness to gov't overreaching. They are the ones going after stopping SOPA, talking about domestic spying, trying to push against government executing its own people without trial.

The tyranny crowd is a bunch of jokers who enjoy collecting the bigger and better guns. They are the least likely group that would have anything to do with uprising against a more direct takeover. Heck, most of them would gladly join the gobernment to go after "commies" who want to stop government atrocities because it would give them a license to shoot bunch of civilians.

you really dont have a clue about the world and country you live in. are you 1 of those new yorkers who never gets outside of the 5 boroughs?

[AndroidMan]

The tyranny crowd is a bunch of jokers who enjoy collecting the bigger and better guns. They are the least likely group that would have anything to do with uprising against a more direct takeover. Heck, most of them would gladly join the gobernment to go after "commies" who want to stop government atrocities because it would give them a license to shoot bunch of civilians.

I finally understand the angle you are taking to make your point. In a way, your argument does make sense, but it may be unfair to lump or generalize all NRA members together. While some may in fact act and do the things you say, there may be a large amount of others who want to genuinely protect the rights of the citizen as well as uphold the constitution. Very good points on government over reach though. At least you get it.

[seren]

You are admitting exactly what I am saying. There are few people taking the danger from big government seriously. Interesting thing is those guys are not in majority NRA members screaming "gov't are gonna take my guns". They are the ones that are trying really hard to raise awareness to gov't overreaching. They are the ones going after stopping SOPA, talking about domestic spying, trying to push against government executing its own people without trial.

The tyranny crowd is a bunch of jokers who enjoy collecting the bigger and better guns. They are the least likely group that would have anything to do with uprising against a more direct takeover. Heck, most of them would gladly join the gobernment to go after "commies" who want to stop government atrocities because it would give them a license to shoot bunch of civilians.

you really dont have a clue about the world and country you live in. are you 1 of those new yorkers who never gets outside of the 5 boroughs?

I don't live in 5 boroughs. I never did in my entire life. I don't know what your point is whether if you have any.

[LoyalFan]

i like facts and figures. black and white. so lets talk some simple definitive gun facts


there are enough guns currently in circulation in our country that every man woman and child can have at least 1 gun. that means well over 300 million guns. for every gun, semi automatic, they come with 1-3 magazines. that means anywhere from 300-900 million magazines. for every gun owner that buys a gun that uses magazines they always buy extra, from 2-10 extra magazines on top of what comes with the gun when they purchase them. in particular to the ar15 magazine there an online retailer named budsguns who recently sold 3-5 years worth of ar mags in a 72 hour period. this is on top of the easy estimate of 2-3 billion already in circulation. magazines are also not serialized nor are they tracked. also the modern gun magazine holds between 11-19 for a pistol and 30 for a rifle.



so now that we have those numbers out there lets ask some questions. 300(+) million guns in circulation already. easily 2/3rd of them are semi automatic that hold magazines that hold 11 or more rounds. we can make a safe guestimate that there are easily more than 2 billion magazines for various guns, and honestly easily double that number, already in circulation

what type of law do you think can possibly be passed that will have any effect on gun violence given those numbers. this country estimates 11k gun related murders, give or take a few less than drunk driving deaths.



what kind of law do any of you think can honestly be passed. or even better. do you think this is a "law" solution or a moral humanity solution

do you think it is justified to punish the majority for the acts of the few

[GONYK]

How does one legislate human morality?

[LoyalFan]

You are admitting exactly what I am saying. There are few people taking the danger from big government seriously. Interesting thing is those guys are not in majority NRA members screaming "gov't are gonna take my guns". They are the ones that are trying really hard to raise awareness to gov't overreaching. They are the ones going after stopping SOPA, talking about domestic spying, trying to push against government executing its own people without trial.

The tyranny crowd is a bunch of jokers who enjoy collecting the bigger and better guns. They are the least likely group that would have anything to do with uprising against a more direct takeover. Heck, most of them would gladly join the gobernment to go after "commies" who want to stop government atrocities because it would give them a license to shoot bunch of civilians.

you really dont have a clue about the world and country you live in. are you 1 of those new yorkers who never gets outside of the 5 boroughs?

I don't live in 5 boroughs. I never did in my entire life. I don't know what your point is whether if you have any.

my point is actually very simple actually. glad you asked.

the man people and states that push for gun control are new york, california, dc and chicago. heavily democratic and large city populated. but they are also a SMALL portion of this entire country and there for carry a small opinion of the overall populace.

this being the knicks message board it is a foregone conclusion that all or close to it here are from the tri state and very likely the confines of the 5 boroughs. which means that you have a very narrow and skewed view of the world and reality. you are likely from a place where only criminals and police have such things as guns. which means your views and opinions are 1 sided.


the reality is most people in this country do believe in guns. they DO believe in the 2nd amendment, some of them above all other amendments.


so my question to you is how much of this world and country have you actually even seen. because your comments suggest you have a very limited view

[LoyalFan]

How does one legislate human morality?

ding ding ding ding ding

you dont.


so if you cant legislate morality then how do you think you can legislate a reduction in a particular type of violence. especially when the plan is to infringe on what many consider a natural born right of being a citizen of this country?

[GONYK]

How does one legislate human morality?

ding ding ding ding ding

you dont.


so if you cant legislate morality then how do you think you can legislate a reduction in a particular type of violence. especially when the plan is to infringe on what many consider a natural born right of being a citizen of this country?

So doing nothing is a better course of action?

[LoyalFan]

How does one legislate human morality?

ding ding ding ding ding

you dont.


so if you cant legislate morality then how do you think you can legislate a reduction in a particular type of violence. especially when the plan is to infringe on what many consider a natural born right of being a citizen of this country?

So doing nothing is a better course of action?

the question here is not about doing nothing. but about doing something pointless just to say you did

the president has presented some very good options. none of which, and i do mean NONE, will stop or slow any sort of gun violence. not in this country or any. in fact people only take issue with 2 proposals at all. banning assault weapons and limiting magazines to 10 rounds. and people are only opposed to them, me specifically, because they literally do nothing at all to solve the problem. and only make honest law abiding citizens now a criminal and punished for no reason at all


so now please refer back to my question? if it doesnt help or solve the problem then why do it?

[LoyalFan]

maybe a better question is
if an assault weapon ban and magazine restriction dont help, because we did it before and it didnt help, why do you think they are so hell bent to do it again. what do you think their real intentions are?

[seren]

my point is actually very simple actually. glad you asked.

the man people and states that push for gun control are new york, california, dc and chicago. heavily democratic and large city populated. but they are also a SMALL portion of this entire country and there for carry a small opinion of the overall populace.

this being the knicks message board it is a foregone conclusion that all or close to it here are from the tri state and very likely the confines of the 5 boroughs. which means that you have a very narrow and skewed view of the world and reality. you are likely from a place where only criminals and police have such things as guns. which means your views and opinions are 1 sided.


the reality is most people in this country do believe in guns. they DO believe in the 2nd amendment, some of them above all other amendments.


so my question to you is how much of this world and country have you actually even seen. because your comments suggest you have a very limited view

Eh. I've seen plenty. It is not about 2nd amendment. That is a farce. It is about the love of guns. End of story.

[yaboynyp]

I've stayed away from this thread for a reason, as I'm aware the anti-gun people will keep flinging their nonsensical arguments(GONYK,Hawthorne, and others) What I will say is that I'm extremely impressed at arguments brought forward by alphadogz. He makes good cases not only for how inept the law will be, the deeper problems of society, but also for how corrupt our government really is. We had our spats, but alpha has really impressed me with his knowledge over some of these subjects, well articulated. Of course E86 usually lays some solid points down as well. Continue the discussion while I get popcorn.

Will even give a shout out to lliiknicksiill33 and ballboy loyalfans for solid arguments.

Nobody cares….

[LoyalFan]

my point is actually very simple actually. glad you asked.

the man people and states that push for gun control are new york, california, dc and chicago. heavily democratic and large city populated. but they are also a SMALL portion of this entire country and there for carry a small opinion of the overall populace.

this being the knicks message board it is a foregone conclusion that all or close to it here are from the tri state and very likely the confines of the 5 boroughs. which means that you have a very narrow and skewed view of the world and reality. you are likely from a place where only criminals and police have such things as guns. which means your views and opinions are 1 sided.


the reality is most people in this country do believe in guns. they DO believe in the 2nd amendment, some of them above all other amendments.


so my question to you is how much of this world and country have you actually even seen. because your comments suggest you have a very limited view

Eh. I've seen plenty. It is not about 2nd amendment. That is a farce. It is about the love of guns. End of story.

then the real answer is simple. you are a closed minded idiot.

[alphad0gz]

Eh. I've seen plenty. It is not about 2nd amendment. That is a farce. It is about the love of guns. End of story.

How many gun toting, NRA supporting, outdoorsmen (and women) do you really know or spend time with regularly? Come clean now.

[yaboynyp]

i like facts and figures. black and white. so lets talk some simple definitive gun facts


there are enough guns currently in circulation in our country that every man woman and child can have at least 1 gun. that means well over 300 million guns. for every gun, semi automatic, they come with 1-3 magazines. that means anywhere from 300-900 million magazines. for every gun owner that buys a gun that uses magazines they always buy extra, from 2-10 extra magazines on top of what comes with the gun when they purchase them. in particular to the ar15 magazine there an online retailer named budsguns who recently sold 3-5 years worth of ar mags in a 72 hour period. this is on top of the easy estimate of 2-3 billion already in circulation. magazines are also not serialized nor are they tracked. also the modern gun magazine holds between 11-19 for a pistol and 30 for a rifle.



so now that we have those numbers out there lets ask some questions. 300(+) million guns in circulation already. easily 2/3rd of them are semi automatic that hold magazines that hold 11 or more rounds. we can make a safe guestimate that there are easily more than 2 billion magazines for various guns, and honestly easily double that number, already in circulation

what type of law do you think can possibly be passed that will have any effect on gun violence given those numbers. this country estimates 11k gun related murders, give or take a few less than drunk driving deaths.



what kind of law do any of you think can honestly be passed. or even better. do you think this is a "law" solution or a moral humanity solution

do you think it is justified to punish the majority for the acts of the few

Some restrictions may help some people, none of the restrictions being proposed are draconian in nature (universal background checks, closing the gun show loophole etc), is gun violence not a problem in the US? Do we not owe it to our society to try?

Just because laws are difficult to enforce doesn’t mean you just throw your hands in the air and say forget about it..

[ORANGEandBLUE]

How does a gun, any gun, help you against drones? Nuclear weapons?

While I am pro gun-control, I disagree with your general argument here. You are falsely equating tyranny with centrally coordinated, big government take over. In fact, tyranny includes any case of the government illegitmately using force or intimidation against civillians. When a corrupt township police officer decides to harass a citizen by barging into his house and beating him, that is tyranny. And to the extent that the officer would be deterred from doing so by the possibility of the home-owner having a gun, gun ownership serves as a check on tyranny.

Of course, you don't see conservatives acknowleding this, because to them, the bad idea is always Obama and the federal government, whereas the local government is always the hero.

I also agree with your larger point, i.e. that the NRA crowd is hypocritical for not attacking other forms of government overreach.