REVISION 2: Knicks Salary Cap Projections for 2015-16

[suicidedeuce]

Reagrdless of and despite actually have the same meaning.

No, they don't. Despite is in spite of, directly, intentional proactive opposition. Regardless is to not regard. To not consider or not factor in.

"I do think Affalo as a total player has regressed on both sides of the court though.....JR's defense from the eye test is better than Affalo at this point imo."

Havent disagreed here either.

Then how do yo explain his career numbers being relatively consistent, rather than noticeably different the last 2 seasons?

And can we please do yourself the courtesy of bypassing the treatise on senseful vs. sensless debates? As someone who's chosen to volunteer their time to oversee a forum full of ultimately senseless discourse, it's an unseemly tactic.

Your answer is in my post.....eye test.

Sent from my SM-P905 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Huh, my eye test has a different score. I also wonder what the eye test score of the 3 teams who have moved on from him in 7 years would say...

If only there was an unbiased, objective way of adding insight into this issue...

[dakomish23]

Dude if you haven't accepted that basketball is a fluid 5 man team game and no matter what you do you can still show a negative because of the other 4 ppl on the court, then all of this has been pointless.

That isn't the issue. When a players numbers are consistently worse than the players you seek to place the blame on, you run into a mathematical dilemma.

Math is logical. 2 +1 = 3. 3-1=2. 3-2=1. There is no way to explain how Affalo's numbers are negatively impacted by his teammates that would not be reflected in the numbers of his teammates. They're all part of a greater whole.

Basically, I'm asking u to do what we did as kids with science projects. Keep the environment the same and test your hypothesis. I'm sure there's stats for JR vs starters somewhere when he was on a team as good or bad as Affalo and they both played the same rotational minutes MEANING during the same time.

Keep everything the same, and let's see who's worse on D and overall.

No, you're not doing that at all. The scientific method means starting not with a conclusion and asking someone to disprove it. Its starting with a hypoethesis and proving THAT. I'm the one providing the empirical data here. You've done NONE of that. Only providing an purely speculative, unprovable conclusion regarding a players standing among GMs.

You're engaged in the discussion. Why don't YOU show some numbers that support your hypothesis that Afflalo is a good two-way player? And show some numbers that you yourself wouldn't dismiss as flawed.

IF he is, should be relatively easy for you.

Because they're not being tested in the same environment under the same circumstances that's why I can't do it. And that what I'm saying about stats.

If I said JR take 10 shots from the top of the key, and he makes 5. And I told Affalo take 10 shots from between the top of the key and the corner, and he made 6. Does that mean Affalo is the better shooter?

I think you gotta compare apples to apples. When that happens, maybe you're proven rt. but I want to see that even comparison.

[Thugger HBC]

No, they don't. Despite is in spite of, directly, intentional proactive opposition. Regardless is to not regard. To not consider or not factor in.



Then how do yo explain his career numbers being relatively consistent, rather than noticeably different the last 2 seasons?

And can we please do yourself the courtesy of bypassing the treatise on senseful vs. sensless debates? As someone who's chosen to volunteer their time to oversee a forum full of ultimately senseless discourse, it's an unseemly tactic.

Your answer is in my post.....eye test.

Sent from my SM-P905 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Huh, my eye test has a different score. I also wonder what the eye test score of the 3 teams who have moved on from him in 7 years would say...

If only there was an unbiased, objective way of adding insight into this issue...

It really is no issue, Affalo has regressed. Why you're bent on continuing a debate we already agree on makes no sense unless you're disagreeing about his regression. My eyes and my own basketball knowledge is enough to know Affalo has regressed as a total player. he isnt the same as he was in Denver. Maybe you needs stats for that and if so...awesome for you.

[suicidedeuce]

I think you gotta compare apples to apples. When that happens, maybe you're proven rt. but I want to see that even comparison.

Then do it.

All you're demonstrating is you acknowledge really have NO idea at all how Smith and Afflalo compare as players and any conclusions you're making now would be without any objective merit.

You seem to think its somehow more necessary for me to provide evidence of how they compare, but you're no closer to supporting any conclusions conversely.

[suicidedeuce]

It really is no issue, Affalo has regressed. Why you're bent on continuing a debate we already agree on makes no sense unless you're disagreeing about his regression.

Ding. He's always been a below average player with size and shooting skills that masked a career-long history of negative production.

[dakomish23]

I think you gotta compare apples to apples. When that happens, maybe you're proven rt. but I want to see that even comparison.

Then do it.

All you're demonstrating is you acknowledge really have NO idea at all how Smith and Afflalo compare as players and any conclusions you're making now would be without any objective merit.

You seem to think its somehow more necessary for me to provide evidence of how they compare, but you're no closer to supporting any conclusions conversely.

Who used the stats in the argument in the first place? After shooting down one of your stats, now you want me to show you stats that show Affalo is better. It's been clear from my first post that you can't rely strictly on stats - so I have no need to conjure up evidence. You do it. You're the one who lives and dies by the stats. I'll take the eye test 11 out of 10 times.

[suicidedeuce]

I think you gotta compare apples to apples. When that happens, maybe you're proven rt. but I want to see that even comparison.

Then do it.

All you're demonstrating is you acknowledge really have NO idea at all how Smith and Afflalo compare as players and any conclusions you're making now would be without any objective merit.

You seem to think its somehow more necessary for me to provide evidence of how they compare, but you're no closer to supporting any conclusions conversely.

Who used the stats in the argument in the first place? After shooting down one of your stats, now you want me to show you stats that show Affalo is better. It's been clear from my first post that you can't rely strictly on stats - so I have no need to conjure up evidence. You do it. You're the one who lives and dies by the stats. I'll take the eye test 11 out of 10 times.

How about we stop with this pretense that the term "eye test" means anything more than "in my opinion." To try to give it any extra meaning is dishonest.

And I'd further question the honestly of any Knick fans who claimed their "eye test" (i.e. their personal opinion) was based on anything more than the occasional, anecdotal observation of the player in question. Is anyone here really claiming to have not only seen the majority of Orlanda Magic games the last 2 seasons, but to have closely observed Aaron Afflalo's impact during them?

I'm halfway hoping one of you claim you have, because then I'll fairly be able to ask to explain in "eye test" rather than statistical terms specifically why his time on the floor negatively impacts their play? Someone who's truly observed Afflalo's ability and impact on the game and can speak intelligently on it based purely on observation could reasonably be expected to explain in similar specific detail what is occurring and who is responsible for the negative impact if not him?

Here's the hypothesis - Aaron Afflalo is a good two way player, who's historical negative impact on his team's play is largely due to the inadaquate play of this teammates.

So bypassing statistical analysis, which one of you "eye test" guys can explain exactly why they occurs in specific detail?

And generally speaking, here's the more fundamental problem with the "in my opinion" .., I mean "eye test" standard.

I'm having a disagreement with one different users, both relying solely on the "eye test", who don't agree with one another.

dakomish23, you're made no mention of Affalo's declining defensive ability the last 2 seasons, you seem to contend he remains a strong 2 way player recognized a such by the majority of the NBA. Your basis is the "eye test".

Thugger believes he's been a bad defensive player the last 2 seasons. His basis is the "eye test".

So who's "eye test" is accurate? Yours or his?

[Dr. Detfink]

I think for $10 NYC's own Rafer Alston can be lured from a Chinese prison and "cap friendly" for the Knicks.

[Thugger HBC]

Duece, you have a reading comprehension problem, and likely it's due to taking sections of a post as if the entire post wasnt related.

Lesson #1....I have no "main ideas" in my posts, more times than none, my entire post is the main idea.

Nowhere have I said Affalo is a bad defender, here's the original link again, this time with the entire post.........

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1335053&start=180


Unread post#199 Re: REVISION 2: Knicks Salary Cap Projections
Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:47 pm by Thugger HBC
If JR opts out he will get renounced.

I did enjoy reading the defensive rating discussion, and I can say even though the stat itself has flaws it does have some uses, but it's nearly impossible to compare players from DIFFERENT teams.

Affalo can only be compared to JR Smith using defensive ratings when they are on the same team, and even then you have to watch the games.

JR can be found on the court in garbage time racking up points against teams who've given up, so his numbers reflect starters sometimes...benches usually.

Which is exactly why JR's statistical best defensive rating was the year Woody took over and the team was blowing teams out left and right, and JR was the main guy on the floor when the gam,es were decided.

And he wasnt on the team during the span they were losing for much of the part Dantoni coached, he came from China much later.

I do think Affalo as a total player has regressed on both sides of the court though.....JR's defense from the eye test is better than Affalo at this point imo.


So where exactly did I say Affalo is a bad defender? I never even explained why he has regressed as the reason is quite obvious.

[suicidedeuce]

Duece, you have a reading comprehension problem, and likely it's due to taking sections of a post as if the entire post wasnt related.

Lesson #1....I have no "main ideas" in my posts, more times than none, my entire post is the main idea.

Nowhere have I said Affalo is a bad defender, here's the original link again, this time with the entire post.........

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1335053&start=180


Unread post#199 Re: REVISION 2: Knicks Salary Cap Projections
Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:47 pm by Thugger HBC
If JR opts out he will get renounced.

I did enjoy reading the defensive rating discussion, and I can say even though the stat itself has flaws it does have some uses, but it's nearly impossible to compare players from DIFFERENT teams.

Affalo can only be compared to JR Smith using defensive ratings when they are on the same team, and even then you have to watch the games.

JR can be found on the court in garbage time racking up points against teams who've given up, so his numbers reflect starters sometimes...benches usually.

Which is exactly why JR's statistical best defensive rating was the year Woody took over and the team was blowing teams out left and right, and JR was the main guy on the floor when the gam,es were decided.

And he wasnt on the team during the span they were losing for much of the part Dantoni coached, he came from China much later.

I do think Affalo as a total player has regressed on both sides of the court though.....JR's defense from the eye test is better than Affalo at this point imo.


So where exactly did I say Affalo is a bad defender? I never even explained why he has regressed as the reason is quite obvious.

Why don't you simply things and not leave them open to incorrect or flawed interpretation.

How does Aaron Aff'alo rate (compared to league average) right now both defensively and offensively?

And in what specifically his is regression due to? What should someone be looking for when watching him that he isn't going as well as he used to?

[Thugger HBC]

Duece, you have a reading comprehension problem, and likely it's due to taking sections of a post as if the entire post wasnt related.

Lesson #1....I have no "main ideas" in my posts, more times than none, my entire post is the main idea.

Nowhere have I said Affalo is a bad defender, here's the original link again, this time with the entire post.........

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1335053&start=180


Unread post#199 Re: REVISION 2: Knicks Salary Cap Projections
Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:47 pm by Thugger HBC
If JR opts out he will get renounced.

I did enjoy reading the defensive rating discussion, and I can say even though the stat itself has flaws it does have some uses, but it's nearly impossible to compare players from DIFFERENT teams.

Affalo can only be compared to JR Smith using defensive ratings when they are on the same team, and even then you have to watch the games.

JR can be found on the court in garbage time racking up points against teams who've given up, so his numbers reflect starters sometimes...benches usually.

Which is exactly why JR's statistical best defensive rating was the year Woody took over and the team was blowing teams out left and right, and JR was the main guy on the floor when the gam,es were decided.

And he wasnt on the team during the span they were losing for much of the part Dantoni coached, he came from China much later.

I do think Affalo as a total player has regressed on both sides of the court though.....JR's defense from the eye test is better than Affalo at this point imo.


So where exactly did I say Affalo is a bad defender? I never even explained why he has regressed as the reason is quite obvious.

Why don't you simply things and not leave them open to incorrect or flawed interpretation.

How does Aaron Aff'alo rate (compared to league average) right now both defensively and offensively?

And in what specifically his is regression due to? What should someone be looking for when watching him that he isn't going as well as he used to?

Not my fault if you cant understand, you could have asked for clarity if you needed it.

As far as shooting guards go Affalo is still a good one on both ends as quite a few starters are liabilities on on end or the other. One thing that stats have issues reflecting is the type of shots a player shoots. Affalo is known for taking good shots, JR on the other hand puts up nearly everything he touches.

Now here's a question I'll ask you....

You posted earlier that a few teams gave him up (Affalo), why did one of those teams reacquire him? I'd love to hear your answer.

[suicidedeuce]

As far as shooting guards go Affalo is still a good one on both ends as quite a few starters are liabilities on on end or the other. One thing that stats have issues reflecting is the type of shots a player shoots. Affalo is known for taking good shots, JR on the other hand puts up nearly everything he touches.

How has he regressed?

You posted earlier that a few teams gave him up (Affalo), why did one of those teams reacquire him? I'd love to hear your answer.

I have no good idea. Perhaps for similar reasons the Pacers traded for Evan Turner.

But I think journeymen are usually if not always journeymen for a reason. My completely personal opinion is that he may be a more intriguing player than his production warrants.

[Thugger HBC]

As far as shooting guards go Affalo is still a good one on both ends as quite a few starters are liabilities on on end or the other. One thing that stats have issues reflecting is the type of shots a player shoots. Affalo is known for taking good shots, JR on the other hand puts up nearly everything he touches.

How has he regressed?

From what I've watched, some of it was coaching, some on the player.

I say coaching because AA has certain spots on the floor where he is very solid, Vaugn seemed at times to not have an idea of the player he was coaching by not recognizing his hot spots and also increasing his usage which was higher than normal to levels that will effect his efficiency, but even still AA made a poor situation decent for him. Thats what good players do.

You posted earlier that a few teams gave him up (Affalo), why did one of those teams reacquire him? I'd love to hear your answer.

I have no good idea.

Good enough for me

Perhaps for similar reasons the Pacers traded for Evan Turner.

I doubt it, the Pacers acquired Turner for scoring and insurance if the lose Lance. Turner isnt a good scorer and they lost Lance too. Pacers iirc declined Turner option BEFORE Lance signed in Charlotte.

But I think journeymen are usually if not always journeymen for a reason. My completely personal opinion is that he may be a more intriguing player than his production warrants.

Whats your definition of a journeyman?

[suicidedeuce]

I say coaching because AA has certain spots on the floor where he is very solid, Vaugn seemed at times to not have an idea of the player he was coaching by not recognizing his hot spots and also increasing his usage which was higher than normal to levels that will effect his efficiency, but even still AA made a poor situation decent for him. Thats what good players do.

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm not being clear. i didn't ask why he regressed, I'm asking in what manner has be regressed.

In what specific areas is he not as good of a player this past two years as he was the previous two?

I doubt it, the Pacers acquired Turner for scoring and insurance if the lose Lance. Turner isnt a good scorer and they lost Lance too. Pacers iirc declined Turner option BEFORE Lance signed in Charlotte.

By the same reasons I mean perhaps like Indiana they made a misjudgment.

Whats your definition of a journeyman?

Can't say I have strict terms for one.

But 4th move in 7 years strikes me as a reasonable qualification.

And let me reset this whole thing for a sec. I got into this discussion merely by suggesting that those enamored with Afflalo and interested in signing him as a free agent should examine his impact on a game, particularly when the Knicks already feature a similarly sized 2 guard who at least statistics consistently suggest is the superior player.

[Thugger HBC]

And let me reset this whole thing for a sec. I got into this discussion merely by suggesting that those enamored with Afflalo and interested in signing him as a free agent should examine his impact on a game, particularly when the Knicks already feature a similarly sized 2 guard who at least statistics consistently suggest is the superior player.

I agree with a reset, the rest doesnt matter anyway.

I honestly dont recall Affalo having any season worse than JR Smith on offense and you'd figure he could since he doesnt shoot alot, whereas JR has more chances to improve his shiooting and doesnt. JR couldnt even take the full time starting role from Affalo when they both played on the same team.

Affalo's fg%, ts%, 3pt %, ft% as well... although his increase in uasage seems to have increased his turnovers by forcing him to be more of a playmaker and shoot more, something that wasnt an issue at all prior to orlando. it was better balanced prior to orlando. Affalo is normally considered underrated.

JR is an awful offensive player, his offense is literally offensive since he has no clue what is a good shot for himself and he is ridiculously inconsistent.

Even from a business standpoint, you want players who have value....nobody wants JR, simplay cant say the same about Affalo....whether on the court and most definietly not off the court.

Defensively I give JR the nod only because of his competition...he plays alot of minutes in already decided games, and against benches.

Teams still have interest in Affalo.

To be honest....make JR more consistent, eliminate the off the court nonsense and you'd probably have Aaron Affalo.

[Dantares]

suicidedeuce can you do another revision please? I think everyone wants an accurate and realistic number and you are the best at this.

[J9Starks3]

suicidedeuce can you do another revision please? I think everyone wants an accurate and realistic number and you are the best at this.

No knock on deuce's, he did a great job with this... but kosmovitelli is the best... at least by the "eye test"

Nothing wrong with coming in 2nd to him when it comes to understanding the cap though...

[Bobbyydee]

The max money was meant for all stars balling for teams, The notion of giving players big money and hope they work out is wearing thin among some owners. From Kemp to Saunders, Mcgee etc once they get the money their motivation to work hard goes away. It should be meant for people who have hustled for the franchise and the franchise knows them well and trust them to do good by the con tract Paying Middleton or Lopez and hope they work out for the Knicks is foolish.